NYT article: New York is the place to be

Parents Forum
81

<p>coverdale, Yes, they send their other 2 to private school, but it is a parochial school and they do get some financial aid from them--this is a very religious family. </p>

<p>The girl in my example is not anywhere near as academically gifted as your kids. She is was an A student in hs b/c her private hs is extremely tiny and there is an unusual amount of support. Frankly, her SAT scores are more representative of her ability. She did prep hard, to get that score. It is her gpa that got her into one of the better SUNYs, rather than her SATs. This is what is so unfair about comparing gpas between high schools.</p>

<p>I agree with you that the 1400+ and A-/B+ kid with a fair number of APs does not need SUNY. The B/B+ kid with 2 honors classes and 1 AP and a 1200-1250 to even 1300 may need a state school b/c they may get meit money, but not enough to come up with the money needed to attend (I am talking about that $100,000 NYC area family).</p>

82

<p>My high stats kids got merit offers too that they did not accept. None came close to SUNY's bottom line, with the exception of Emory Scholars, which is highly competitive. In fact, Binghamton offered one of my kids almost $5,000 in merit money on top of their low tuition, which we did not accept. The same child was offered only $10,000 at Rochester. My other child was offered less than $10,000 at Brandeis. Granted, BU and GW offered decent merit money incentives, but even then ... it would have cost way more than SUNY to attend. (GW's tuition is astronomical.)</p>

<p>With two in college at one time, we would have hit the financial jackpot if they both went to SUNY. They did apply to Binghamton (as a financial safety) but attending was never a consideration.</p>

83

<p>The biggest change in SUNY is that most of the truly excellent students who were there in the past are now elsewhere. THAT is what has changed and sapped SUNY of its vigor. To retain them SUNY would have to build a true flagship for excellence, not just the small honors "colleges" they now have in many of their schools.</p>

<p>edad you are right --there were so many with SATs (recentered) in the 1400s in the SUNY schools of old. No more.</p>

84

<p>When I went to Albany I remember students going to NYU and Barnard who could not get into one of the top four SUNYs --really! It's certainly not like that now.</p>

85

<p>Cloverdale, even the atmosphere at SUNY Purchase during the early 70s was exciting, innovative and cutting edge - Nelson Rockefeller must be turning around in his grave over the SUNY crisis but he governed a much different New York. Much of what is going on at SUNY Bing and other upstate campuses is the result of the "Rethinking SUNY" blueprint and a flagship U. is nowhere in the picture. In the "Mission II" phase, SUNY aims to improve academic quality and attract a stronger and more diverse applicant pool within the same basic structure that exists now but with revised mission statements. In this context, according to the mission statements, Binghamton University, alongside the Universities at Stonybrook, Albany, and Buffalo are clearly categorized as research universities - lost focus or changed focus, I suppose it is how you look at it.</p>

<p>In "Mission II" each college and university in the system is increasingly viewed in terms of an operating business entity each filling a particular niche within the comprehensive SUNY structure. Since tax payer contributions are expected to be even more "sluggish" given current demographic trends upstate, this renovation of SUNY and its brand image will pose a tremendous challenge, and it looks like corporate sponsorship will continue to be a key factor in how each SUNY institution will be able to focus on its mission and deliver quality education within the SUNY system - this 1999 article from the Village Voice doesn't seem at all out of date.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9902,hussey_spartos,3338,1.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9902,hussey_spartos,3338,1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I had a friend at Bronx Science who was deciding between Princeton, Oberlin and Purchase. Finally she chose Oberlin but I remember how excited she was about Purchase, it was up there for her.</p>

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<p>After spending this past week upstate NY and a few days on the Cortland campus, I came back to read this thread with some "new insight".<br>
Maybe it's my working class roots which still hold true today, but shouldn't a main purpose of a public university be to educate the PEOPLE of the State of NY for the good of all the people?? Should not our next generation of teachers, physical therapists, accountants, librarians come from the ranks of SUNY and other colleges?? Why should we be overly concerned about the top 5 to 10% when we should be more concerned with educating the other 90% of the students? And yes d # 1 was in the glorified top ten 10% and she did use SUNY as an absolute safety. But maybe for the good of society, we should be more concerned about the other 90%?<br>
And really- did the SUNY Binghamton students change that much over the past 30 years- or is it that the parents became more savvy, more well off (due to their SUNY education) and are able to afford and give their kids the opportunity to go to U of Rochester, NYU (back in the day it was way harder to get into Brooklyn College than NYU), UVA or Duke.<br>
I had alot of friends at SUNY Bing back in the day - and trust me no one had 1500 SAT (I am sure some kids did). But my friends had A- averages and 1200 range SAT's. Very few AP's and rarely physics and calc. Most kids getting into SUNY Bing today have at least those minimum qualifications, and probably even higher stats. So I really think some of you are disrespecting todays kids at SUNY Bing.<br>
I am also one of those 2 income LI families. And unless your kid gets 1500 SAT (what's the stats on that- top 3%??) or maybe val. you cannot expect much merit money if your income is above $100,000.<br>
D # 1's friend (yes another anecdotal story) didn't get into Cornell Human Ec, got waitlisted at Harvard, got $10,000 merit from U of Rochester, got into Stony Brook honors- WISE program and other acceptances. As her family would still not pay the $30,000 price tag at U of R, she was ready to go to Stony Brook. Kid gets off Harvard waitlist and family finds the $ to send her to Harvard. That is certainly understandable. My point is that a lot of parents do not have the $120,000 to send their kids to a top notch school like U of Rochester and would still take advantage of SUNY. So this Harvard caliber student was just a few weeks away from being a SUNY student.<br>
Re Flagship U: And how would we NOW develop a flagship SUNY?? I can just imagine the SUNY Bing parents response if SUNY Stony Brook got the nod to be the flagship. It seems that each one of our university centers has developed a personality and niche. Same holds true for the colleges. There are some top students from my district who do not like the rural atmosphere of Bing or Geneseo- They prefer and do go to Albany and Buffalo- some pre-med kids like Stony Brook as there is a hospital affiliated with the school. Some "pre-law" kids like Albany due to internships and other government/law opportunities. So should we just take their choice away and develop one flagship school?? Maybe that could have been done in 1948 when SUNY was founded. but that ain't happening today.<br>
I just came back from 2 days at SUNY Cortland- immaculate campus-lovely dorms. Millions is being spent on a new Education building and in improving the science building. It still holds true today as it did when I went to SUNY Oswego-- SUNY Colleges probably train a good % of NY state teachers. For d # 2 who is majoring in sports management, SUNY Cortland is the right place for her. And yes, there was a kid from Vermont in her program. So we do get some OOS kids.<br>
There are many wonderful schools in NY state- be it Vassar-Colgate-Siena-Hunter and way too many to list. But for alot of kids, the cost of those schools are out of reach. It is extremely comforting to know that the State of NY has a wonderful public university system be it SUNY or CUNY which allows ALL our children to develop and become valued members of our society. They deserve it!!</p>

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<p>Yes, they do deserve it and we are lucky to have such a comprehensive state public system that does attract OOS - imperfections and all. Also, many thanks Marny for your fresh insight and update on SUNY Cortland. </p>

<p>The SUNY system is designed to serve the needs of New York State - both uptate and downstate - and this is important because the economies of upstate and downstate are linked and there are plenty of studies to prove it. The basic structure of the SUNY system does not call for one flagship U but rather four - and these are the research university centers at Stony Brook, Buffalo, Albany, and Binghamton. The plan for this structure was drawn up in 1960, during the Cold War, when Stony Brook's mission was changed from a teacher's college to a research institution. The University of Buffalo was brought into the mix in 1962. Since it takes about 40 years to create a prestigious, solid research institution of the likes of Berkeley then it is logical that we are seeing the fruits of the 1960 master plan only today and that New York State and the SUNY system have to play catch-up with the current "new" needs of both the state and its students as well as the new fiscal realities. The Centers for Excellence are part of this response to the future needs of the state. Also, several of the smaller colleges, such as Purchase College, or SUNY Purchase, still fill important niches within the overall comprehensive system. </p>

<p>Today, the system as it developed out of the 1960 plan and the "Rethinking SUNY" blueprint is carried on in "Mission II" does foster a great deal of competition among the four major university centers especially as they become increasingly independent both in terms of mission and finances - and it is no doubt true that each one wants to become a flagship U in its own right in order to showcase particular program strengths. One only hopes that this internal competition will better serve New York State students and the State of New York because if SUNY prospers so does New York - both upstate and downstate.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/heq/43.1/br_17.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/heq/43.1/br_17.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Here's some stats, out of about 110 top colleges I ranked as of 1971, vs. about 2002.</p>

<p>SUNY SAT rank 1971 2002 %admit rank 1971 2002</p>

<p>Albany 42 96 42 82
Binghamton 53 90 48 45
Buffalo 83 95 26 63
Stony Brook 80 94 49 50
Geneseo 95 81 59 42</p>

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<p>Here are some figures for in-state attendance:</p>

<p>SUNY Bing 91%
SUNY Oswego 99%
SUNY Brockport 98%
SUNY Buffalo 94%
SUNY Stony Brook 94%
SUNY Cortland 99%
SUNY Geneseo 99%
Univ Michigan 63%
UC Berkeley 93%
Ohio State 88%
Penn State 72%
Univ Virginia 71%
Georgia Tech 69%
Univ Mass 79%
Cal Tech 38%
Univ N. Carolina Chapel Hill 83%
Univ Delaware 33%</p>

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<p>SATs have recentered so that the 1500 of today is the 1400 of yesterday --and plenty of people I knew at SUNY had SATs like that. I went to Bronx High School of Science, the best of the best in the city, and almost everyone went to CUNY and SUNY --that is not the case today.</p>

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<p>Talking about APs 30 years ago is irrelevant --they were not like they are now, they just gave college credit. The issue then was being an honor student or not, at least in NYC. At Bronx Science, only a few people that I knew of every took AP, and these had NO IMPACT on college admissions. This is apples and oranges. Today's SUNY student is not the same --as you say, it used to be harder to get into Brooklyn College than NYU. It was a long time ago.</p>

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<p>That last point probably has at least as much to do with changes at NYU than Brooklyn College.</p>

<p>IN 1971 NYU accepted 71% of its applicants. </p>

<p>In the whole country, over the last 35 years only Washington University has increased its relative selectivity more than NYU has.</p>

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<p>So if we realize the top 15% and bottom 15% of students may need a different learning environment (highly selective competitive environment top 15%/tutoring and small classes for the bottom 15%) we're left with the rest of us- 70% which you can categorize as the "average college student". For us- regular people, we're mighty glad we have a solid public university system. And for my friends who have spent the extra bucks to send their kids to UConn, U. Maryland Delaware, and Penn State--they rarely say they believe their kid is getting any better education at those schools than they would at Bing or Buffalo. They main reason they send the kid OOS is so that they can get a more enjoyable college experience- including basketball games- football and the whole environment that a Big U has to offer. You got an extra $50,000 bucks to make your kid happy, then go for it!! I will concede that schools like UVA and U Mich have it all, but we all know how UVA loves NY kids. UVA takes about 100 kids from all of NYS each year. And my guess is that a good chunk of those kids are soccer and lacross players from Long Island and Westchester. At least U Mich and Wisconsin do take a good number of NY kids.
Cloverdale- your background is Bronx HS and a son who got 1500 on SAT. Let's be real- that is not the norm. My background is Sheepshead Bay HS and a d who got 1420 on SAT's. A little closer to the college confidential norm. My d was extremely lucky- We hit the equivalent of NY Lotto- She's in Cornell-ILR.
No matter how much money or effort is put into the Suny's, there is a core group of people who would never put their kids in a public U. Maybe with an elitist outlook, the top 5% should not go to SUNY unless finances prevent it. If they have enough money to send their kid to a private U, they are going to do it no matter how good the State U is. My d applied ED to UVA and was eventually rejected. I spent alot of time on the UVA website and boards. Though we NY'rs look at UVA as an extremely selective and wonderful environment, alot of Va kids also had reservations about their own state U as they too view it as an extension of their HS with their HS cliques continuing at UVA. And my guess is that those Va parents who can afford to pay tuition at a private U may choose to do so.<br>
I think the biggest change is not with the students, but with the parents. Most of the kids from my district who are going to Bing, Buffalo and Stony Brook are at least A- minus students with 1200 + SAT's which is pretty much what it was way back when (even with recentering). Our parents were content and proud that they could afford to send their kid to a SUNY as many of my friends had to stay home and go to Brooklyn college as they could not afford the room and board. For the Majority of college students who do find themselves at a Public U, I find it sad that parents do not seem to take the same amount of pride as our parents once did.</p>

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<p>My memory matches cloverdale's. I looked but could not find any statistics, but I believe admission to Bing was a lot more selective 30 years ago. I suppose none of that matters now, except that it does illustrate that the caliber of students and the quality of the school have declined over time. Sure there are plenty of Ivy rejects who go to SUNY schools and there are also some who go for financial reasons. It is too bad that there are no schools which really meet their needs. </p>

<p>Yes, it is important for the SUNYs to meet the needs of the middle 70%, but there should also be some choices that meet the needs of the top 10-20%. Why? Because we are all taxpayers. Because having some academically challenging schools and programs helps to improve the reputation of the SUNY system, helps to attract good faculty and students, and helps to improve the quality throughout the system. More and more studies are showing that all students - including the disadvantaged, inner city kids - benefit from challenging programs. Having academically excellent programs benefits everyone, even those who are not yet ready to participate directly. </p>

<p>I do believe many parents spend an extra $50k or more to send their kids to OOS universities or modest private schools. I don't believe they do this so their kids can have more fun and go to football games. They opt out of SUNY because of the quality. The kids with the 1150-1250 SATs are not going to be accepted at Bing or Gen. They are going to be accepted by the less selective SUNYs. </p>

<p>The honors programs don't seem to offer much. It's no wonder a parent would mortgage the house for Harvard if the alternative is SBU honors. My D got a scholarship for the SBU honors program so I am familiar with the offerings: priority registration, special dorms, and special honors courses which did not meet my D's needs or interests. This summer my D is back from her freshman year at an OOS private school and is taking courses at SBU. She describes the courses as watered down and slow. She says the teachers make sure everyone is keeping up and they don't cover too much material too fast. I suspect that her HS was more challenging than SBU. </p>

<p>Notice how names are changing. Now we have Binghamton U and Stony Brook U. No one wants to be associated with the SUNY name.</p>

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<p>Marny fyi my mom still lives in Sheepshead Bay and I went to SUNY as did most of my friends from Bronx Science. At the time I was so thrilled and proud to be going to Albany, and the friends I met there were a group of very smart people --very. The classes, though large, were challenging.</p>

<p>This summer my older son, who goes to Brown, is taking a course in Film at UConn. The Brown media department head asked to see the syllabus and after looking at it would accept the credit, but not as a prerequisite for anything in the major. She said it was just too light and not rigorous enough for her. Sure enough my son is now in that class and he cannot believe it --he says the level is astonishingly low, but NOT because of the syllabus: Because of the students. Yet another girl in the class who comes from another college told him that the level is very high compared to her school. I cannot imagine what school that is.</p>

<p>There are wide differences, defined by the students. A lot of very bright kids go to the UConn flagship, but this happens to be a UConn extension, so the kids accepted did not get into regular UConn. My son says these kids take over the entire class with discussion that prevents him from learning anything outside his own viewing of the film --no discussion of misenscene, theme, metaphor, meaning, the nuanced artistic things you would expect in a film class. Instead, the entire discussion is devoted to students who must go over the basic plot points one by one, literally scene by scene, because they do not understand even the straightforward action: literally, What happened in the movie. Many do not understand vocabulary used by the characters. </p>

<p>The teacher had Psycho on a list of films to watch and one girl said, "What is "P"-sycho." She had never heard of it and did not even know the P in the word was silent.</p>

<p>He will need to be taking a semester at home for medical treatment and he is travelling to Columbia. He says going to the UConn extension is like not going to school at all. There are vast differences between students across the range of colleges, moreso than in highschools, where everyone was together. I can tell you one thing: My friends at Albany knew about Psycho. I am sure kids at Albany today do too...but with the falling off of quality, there really is no place for the top kids and there should be, in New York State.</p>

<p>There should be something rigorous to meet their needs --even if the professors are the same, the falling off of student quality means there is almost nothing for the top tier.</p>

<p>Not everyone can afford a private school or qualify for need-based aid. New York should offer something more for the top 10%: That is a big percent.</p>

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<p>I want to make it clear that in NO WAY am I anti-state universities. My second son could easily attend some other state U. I think the big 10 schools and clearly many of the other state schools meet and exceed the needs of many many students - even very top students. </p>

<p>It is interesting that the parents on here most anti-SUNY are alumni. It's sad!</p>

98

<p>Just spoke to hubby- who graduated SUNY Albany Class of 1973 (He is SO MUCH OLDER than me!!). He graduated from a Queens HS with an 87 average and 1130 SAT's. No guarantee he'd get into Albany today with those scores. And Cloverdale, it would be nice if SUNY could have a more appropriate program for the top 10%, but my gut feeling is that many of those kids would still opt out especially when SUNY is competing with schools like Colgate, Rochester, Vassar and all the other great schools in NYS. Let's be real, there are always going to be some people who "need" to tell their friends that kid is going to Colgate or Bucknell and not SUNY Binghamton. Hey- they can't help it- they did not grow up in Brooklyn and develop our self confidence.</p>

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<p>Let's face it, prestige is a big part of all of this. I think we all agree that we need academically rigorous programs within the SUNY system that will attract the caliber of students that we want to see back at SUNY schools - and the fact that many of these colleges have changed their names is just one more indication of how aggressive the college admissions game has gotten over the years - especially for those schools that do have to go the extra mile to keep their application numbers up or strengthen their applicant pool. Parents and students do expect more these days, and that includes the college experience as well as academic quality, and marketing a brand name "U" is very much part of it all. If public institutions are expected to compete with private institutions they have to offer more and at the same time promote their strengths - and all that with dwindling public funds.</p>

<p>The University at Buffalo's version of Mission II plan for the future is dubbed "UB 2020" and aims to make it a premier research center:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.buffalo.edu/ub2020/overview/index.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.buffalo.edu/ub2020/overview/index.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Purchase College has its own strategic plan for 2004-2009:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.purchase.edu/AboutPurchase/President/strategicplan.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.purchase.edu/AboutPurchase/President/strategicplan.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Binghamton University is planning to spread the word with more aggressive in-state recruiting and a strong showing at national fairs: </p>

<p><a href="http://inside.binghamton.edu/news/newspage.cgi?issue=2006jul20&id=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://inside.binghamton.edu/news/newspage.cgi?issue=2006jul20&id=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I also find it extremely interesting that the University of Wisconsin at Madison, an excellent flagship U, faced with similar problems of loss of prestige, called in a former SUNY president, Dr. Frank A. Cipriani, to take charge.</p>

<p><a href="http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:ta4y87cwqgEJ:www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume14/Vol14no8.pdf+chartering+the+University+of+Wisconsin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:ta4y87cwqgEJ:www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume14/Vol14no8.pdf+chartering+the+University+of+Wisconsin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>