<p>and as lasmeninas66 said before, I want to go to a good academic school as well because obviously i want to get a good education, especially being so new to a competitive job field :)</p>
<p>aoezeki
D is also a high school senior and is currently making her college decision. It’s between Chapman and NYU Tisch. Stay tuned… (We have not seen Chapman yet, though she’s toured NYU twice. Heading to SoCal later this month.) </p>
<p>I think the UCLA plan you have is a solid one and will save you upwards of $200,000. You are fortunate in that you already know what you want to specialize in, so as you work on your required classes, you can be simultaneously working to beef up your film portfolio. Often, (in HS anyway) you can do class projects in the form of films rather than writing traditional papers. If you don’t get admitted to UCLA’s tiny film program, you can look into other film schools, (D applied to film schools of various sizes and strengths including UT Austin, Boston U, UNCWilmington, SUNY Purchase, even Vassar has a small film dept.) though I’m not sure which ones accept transfer students in film production, because a BFA film program at least, can be on a very narrow track. So that’s another question for you to explore.</p>
<p>Good luck! And don’t fret too much. You have been admitted to some amazing schools and will be able to explore all sorts of subjects there.</p>
<p>I apologize if I put words together too directly and was “cruely” honest. I am an ESL person and my English sometimes is not very “polite”. Sorry about it.:-)</p>
<p>gladiatorbird</p>
<p>My D worked in film production during high school and before that she was (and still is) an agency represented actress. I just talk to people on the set. And I talk a lot. ;-)</p>
<p>Since you have a boy probably my “experience” will not help you much because I always asked questions about girls and what would be best for girls.</p>
<p>For girls I kind of knew that we had 2 goals:
- to get degree in a reputable school the cheapest way possible
- not to look at prestige only but the way how GIRLS are treated and placed on the job market.</p>
<p>Stepping into “questionable” territory and expecting to make somebody angry again 
I would say that the most common “career path” in this industry (film production only, not pre-productin, not post-production, not related media areas) is through entry level PA job. I heard a lot of stories how careers were made by simply sleeping with half of the crew. I don’t want this for my D. She doesn’t want it.</p>
<p>Whatever I wrote here I wrote for a girl. Don’t think it will be the same for a boy especially if your S chooses not to be director or producer ONLY but something much more realistic, especially in in pre- or post-production.</p>
<p>Just to clarify our own situation.
My D. did not apply to any NY schools (I never expected we could afford it and my personal demand was - NO LOANS). She applied to several schools in LA, was rejected from 3, accepted to 3 and we are still waiting for finaid packages from 2 of them.
I am pushing my D toward UT Austin. It will be almost free due to scholarships and I don’t care about union/non union in this situation. She can transfer later, she can go to Semester in LA program, she can change her mind and go to video game major (much more bread and butter :-)), she can go to graduate school in LA etc, etc, etc .
The main thing - NO DEBT and at UT she will be able to explore opportunities and probably find a niche in this business where she is not going to struggle. Many “production programs” don’t give you this flexibility. UT does. </p>
<p>If you want me to share stories and personal stories about different film schools I would prefer private message. :-)</p>
<p>Thank you, Ya Ya! Your information will be helpful to many and I’m glad you posted. And your observations about the issues young women can face in the industry might as well just be put out there in the open. Boys are not completely immune to these pressures in today’s world, but they will encounter only a <em>microspeck</em> of that dynamic, when compared to young women. </p>
<p>I read and hear great things about UT Austin. Son almost applied there, but decided to stick with SoCal schools (since we are here already, as is much of the industry)–otherwise it would have stayed on his list. We’ve also heard great things about LMU (how personalized its program is and how profs take interest in every student). We sensed that in our visits. Son is deciding between Dodge, USC SCA and LMU. </p>
<p>We are with you on the no debt thing! That’s what makes USC a challenge for our family. We can swing Chapman and LMU without debt, thanks to their wonderful merit scholarships! </p>
<p>Son has an open mind about how and where he’ll break in/find a niche in the industry. One reason he chose to apply to the digital arts/animation major (besides that he lives and breathes that stuff) is this: on tours at the schools, he was uncomfortable with the…ahem…how do I say this…I’ll just quote my son…“French beret-wearing, pseudo-intellectual poser guys who ALL raise their hands when asked, ‘Who here wants to be a director?’” He actually came away from initial tours distressed that every guy in the room viewed himself as the next great director. That’s my son, LOL. He’d been on the fence about whether to apply to the film production or animation/digital arts major, and that helped him decide. Plus, class sizes for Anim/DA were so small: 20 a year at Chapman, 26 (if I remember correctly) at USC. </p>
<p>Good luck to your daughter in her decision-making! Please keep us informed. Maybe we should start a thread for Parents of Film/Digital Arts kids Class of Whatever. We have a good start here, with you, Shakespearefan, SJRCalderone, and others. There is the wonderful ‘After the Launch’ thread, which I love and lurk on. But those kids are out of school. If there isn’t one already, we may need a new thread for our young whippersnappers. :)</p>
<p>gladiatorbird</p>
<p>Of course UT is a great school. Many people are dreaming to get in but don’t have a chance. My D is a very lucky girl. She knows it.
A big part of all this “decision making issues” is a teenage high school drama. She told other girls at school she was applying to “Hollywood schools”, she told them she was accepted, everyone expects her to go there. And suddenly it’s not Hollywood at all but Austin, TX. She expects a lot of smirks and mean comments.
I am trying to tell her it doesn’t matter. It will last only one month - May, and after that she will probably never see these smirking girls again in her life. Ten years from now she will probably not remember their names. So she should take all this peer pressure a little bit easier.</p>
<p>I guess aoezeki can have the same issue. UCLA is no big deal at all, she is already in California, but New York on the other hand… what will the other girls say? :)</p>
<p>Austin is a very VERY cool place. Hipper than LA, many would say. Lucky daughter!</p>
<p>Ya Ya…very insightful, I totally agree with your goals (even though I had a son)
</p>
<p>And I ESPECIALLY agree with this:
</p>
<p>If you can achieve those goals at a quality school, yay for her and you!</p>
<p>Yes, Yay for wise Ya Ya and lucky Ya Ya daughter.
(Say that fast ten times. I dare you.) :)</p>
<p>Thanks. :)</p>
<p>Sorry to come to this thread rather late, but I am distressed at all this talk about how women are treated in the film industry. I mean–what? The numbers of women in above the line positions is only growing. The first woman director won an Academy Award last year. There is a desire on the part of the industry–and on the part of top film schools to bring more women into their programs to better help them enter the field. I have to say I am very impressed with aozeki’s response to Ya-Ya’s post asserting that “girls” must sleep their way to the top. Oh brother. Not only is this offensive, it’s pretty misogynistic. Boys, he says, don’t need to worry. Perhaps Ya-Ya doesn’t realize just how things are in Hollywood. All young adults will need to use good sense, but this isn’t some terrible snakepit!</p>
<p>Perhaps Ya-ya, coming from a different culture, and with a pretty young daughter who is an actress, and standing around with a bunch of men on the crew (think older and Teamster) gets to hear the exaggerated scary x-rated version of the film business. However, despite his worries for his daughter, this is not a career that particularly puts any young woman… or man at risk! Young people starting out, as I’m sure it doesn’t need saying, will have to make good choices in their relationships no matter what field they pursue.</p>
<p>I also have to question Ya-ya’s assertion that the number of students in a film program will determine how many will get work in the industry. I mean–what? How does that even compute? By the way, USC admits 50 into their production major each year. But no school can possibly guarantee each student will find work. The career paths are determined by many factors, including talent, relevance, personality, attitude, resilience, drive and good fortune. The thing aozeki and other students need to keep in mind is how important it is for any artist to get a full education, develop critical thinking skills, and interact with other creative and deep thinking peers. </p>
<p>To answer her original question, it is very prestigious to be admitted to NYU’s film school, but they do admit more students than most other film programs. UCLA is a stellar school (full disclosure: I teach there), and in her case, perhaps being female will give her an edge in applying to their film major in 2 years.</p>
<p>Back to aozeki, be proud of your NYU admission, but don’t go into big debt to attend there, debt will just make it harder for you to make it after graduation. UCLA is a great choice if you can wait until junior year to start film major. You can still volunteer for student productions, and in fact should. The contacts you make on set are just as important if not more so than the degree.
I think there is an advantage to being a girl at the entry level for admission and initial job opportunities, efforts are being made to balance gender, a form of affirmative action. That being said, you have to be willing to work long hours, odd times, and there is no room for someone whose major talent is just looking good. Take your passion for film and run with it.</p>
<p>madbean</p>
<p>I actually never said that women were treated badly in this industry. Reread my posts, please, and point to sentence that gave you this impression, please, because I personally don’t recall.</p>
<p>I remember saying that this is a man-dominated world and there is a big reason for that and mentioned firefighters and truck drivers.</p>
<p>Well, let me explain what I meant.
The long hours were already mentioned, 12-14 hours on the set, sometimes outside in any weather and any climate, is nothing unusual. And since people work on the projects they often travel a lot, I know people who spend 2-3 months “at home” and the rest 9 months away; they are on the plane, at at the hotel and on the set in different cities both for film and commercial work. Hence the comparison with truck drivers.</p>
<p>Nobody actually mentioned physical labor yet (comparison with firefighters). Well there are many people on the set, some of them are women and they do make-up, costumes, set decorations, catering, this kind of work; assistant director can be a woman. None of these jobs require any film degree, IMHO. People around the cameras and other equipment are men. They move pretty heavy things around, they lay on the ground in strange body positions trying to catch an interesting angle for the shoot, they hold cameras, boom, wireless sound equipment and sometimes even lamps for extended period of time the way that would make my shoulders (or shoulders of many other women) sore for a week with probably a following visit to a chiropractor. The light guys work in heavy gloves but they still get all kind of injuries, burns and blisters.</p>
<p>How many women would go and do this kind of work?</p>
<p>Many girls start this education having very strange ideas about film production. When they finally see what this is all about they change majors, or they stay with this major and in this business but go into different direction more suitable for women, like casting director or talent agent. Which is not exactly “film production” from the degree point of view. These professions don’t require more that 50% of things people learned in “film production” programs.</p>
<p>I also recall that I said that that film production is only a small part of media production and people who don’t know anything about this business could go and explore the opportunities before making commitment to film only.</p>
<p>If you work at UCLA, what is the reason that this university with one of the oldest film programs right in the middle of Hollywood decided to accept students to this program junior year only? Do you want to admit and teach only people who are already absolutely sure what they want to do and don’t just have strange ideas about red carpet and celebrity life style?
Somebody told here about USC, that they would not let you make your own films until you fulfill gen ed requirements (about 1.5 years) and when they do they kind of “assign” crew positions. Not everyone is allowed to direct. And this is the second film school with the longest history of the film major right in the middle of Hollywood.</p>
<p>The whole idea of my posts was not to go after “prestige” getting huge loans when you actually don’t know yet what you are getting into.</p>
<p>As for moral aspects… I actually witnessed advances toward my own D a couple of times (she is still 17 y.o. by the way). I was advised to be quiet, walk away, never work with these people again but not officially complain or threaten anyone with any lawsuits.
I am glad that you and people around you have certain moral values and I am sure that people love working with you and feel absolutely safe. Unfortunately this world is not ideal and people over there are very different. I am sorry that mentioning this FACT coursed so much distress among people who prefer to be ignorant.
Again, I apologize for mentioning such a '“nasty” thing people prefer not to talk about.
I guess I should not even mention anything like drugs on the set…People probably prefer not to talk about this either.</p>
<p>Apologies to all here for this long post, but ya ya asked for clarification and I honestly cannot believe his chauvinistic rhetoric is straight from the fifties/sixties. It is extremely offensive to me, ya ya, that you single out girls and emphatically write GIRLS in all caps to emphasize your finger-pointing prejudice. If you substituted another large group–say African-Americans or Catholics or Armenians and put their name in all caps like you do with GIRLS to insist they are not equipped to do all sorts of jobs, incapable of the basic requirements to pursue all sorts of careers, you’d get your head handed to you. I find it disturbing that you believe this anti-female tripe to begin with, but it is just incomprehensible that you feel entitled to spout these very backward opinions in a public forum.
**
Ya Ya wrote: “I actually never said that women were treated badly in this industry. Reread my posts, please, and point to sentence that gave you this impression, please, because I personally don’t recall.”**</p>
<p>You REALLY don’t know what you are saying? Okay, here are just a few excerpts:</p>
<p>**“Film Production is a male dominated world and there are big reasons for that (you don’t see many women-firefighters or many women-truck drivers)”
**</p>
<p>Big reasons for that? You are implying that women are less capable then men to work in film production. That’s sheer nonsense. For the record, there are many more jobs in film production that require creative problem solving and people skills than how much weight one can lift. Starting at the top on a feature film, there are screenwriters, directors, executive producers, produces, associate producers, line producers, producers, co-producers, directors of photography, film editors, production designers, art directors, set decorators, costume designers, makeup artists, hair stylists, wigmakers, production supervisors, unit managers, script supervisors, first assistant directors, second unit directors and assistant directors, assistant property masters, assistant set decorators, assistant art directors, assistant designers, camera operators, still photographers, casting assistants, wardrobe supervisors, set costumers, plus office assistants, location coordinators, legal services, researchers, assistants to the producers/actors/director, location managers, office production assistants, production attorneys, and publicists. Most students do not go film school in order to become electricians or construction workers, so I wouldn’t worry too much about women being barred from these low-on-creativity, high on heavy lifting positions, but if they wanted to, they certainly could pursue those fields as well.</p>
<p>**You wrote: “Well, let me explain what I meant. The long hours were already mentioned, 12-14 hours on the set, sometimes outside in any weather and any climate, is nothing unusual. And since people work on the projects they often travel a lot, I know people who spend 2-3 months “at home” and the rest 9 months away; they are on the plane, at at the hotel and on the set in different cities both for film and commercial work. Hence the comparison with truck drivers.”
**
Ya ya, you again imply that women are not capable of working long hours, will somehow melt in extreme weather, cannot handle travel (!), and are incapable of living in hotels or getting on planes. What century do you come from? Would you dare to suggest this sort of nonsense if talking about any other group of people?</p>
<p>You wrote: “Nobody actually mentioned physical labor yet (comparison with firefighters). Well there are many people on the set, some of them are women and they do make-up, costumes, set decorations, catering, this kind of work; assistant director can be a woman. None of these jobs require any film degree, IMHO.”</p>
<p>Do you hear how demeaning you are? Women are capable of doing all sorts of creative work, and are not limited to make up and catering. I shudder to think you truly believe this! And, as most people agree, NONE of the jobs in motion pictures require any film degree. Not directing. Not screenwriting. Not producing. And not catering. So if your message is that these girly jobs do not require a film degree, I’ve got news for you. None of the production jobs do.</p>
<p>You wrote: " People around the cameras and other equipment are men. They move pretty heavy things around, they lay on the ground in strange body positions trying to catch an interesting angle for the shoot, they hold cameras, boom, wireless sound equipment and sometimes even lamps for extended period of time the way that would make my shoulders (or shoulders of many other women) sore for a week with probably a following visit to a chiropractor. The light guys work in heavy gloves but they still get all kind of injuries, burns and blisters."</p>
<p>I think we can agree that gaffers, grips, and construction crews are often hanging around heavy things–and if I was advising a young woman about careers in Hollywood, I would certainly not expect she was thinking of these sorts of jobs! Be serious. As to laying on the ground in strange body positions–am I the only reader of this post that laughed out loud. Is your implications that young women cannot lay on the ground to do a job? Are they too delicate to move a cable? I agree, they may not want to, but most of the female film students I know–and I know many–are bending down, moving sofas, plugging in cables, whatever needs to be done. They are healthy, athletic and not embarrassed to do a little physical labor. While this would probably shock you, it is quite normal for students to dig in and do all the grunt work when making their own student films. And yes, they sometimes get blisters. Oh my.</p>
<p>You ask: “How many women would go and do this kind of work?”</p>
<p>Why wouldn’t they, if they have a passion for it? Would you also ask this question of some other ethnic or societal group? If a young woman wants to be a filmmaker, that is her choice.</p>
<p>**You wrote: “Many girls start this education having very strange ideas about film production. When they finally see what this is all about they change majors, or they stay with this major and in this business but go into different direction more suitable for women, like casting director or talent agent.”
**
Ya ya, you are again offending all women by saying there are jobs that are more “suitable” for them. The entire women’s movement in America, which you may have missed, addressed just how condescending and blatantly belittling such notions can be. Women do not belong in some little ghetto of desk jobs. Trust me on this.</p>
<p>But I’ve gone on far to long trying to show you just where you are woefully behind the times. It’s a new world. Women are, indeed, capable of many accomplishments. The pervasive attitude in many professions from decades past is slowly giving way, and I fully expect the next generation of women filmmakers to make even more strides to gaining equality in hiring. The fact that women are still being discriminated against is not an excuse to keep them down.</p>
<p>**You wrote: If you work at UCLA, what is the reason that this university with one of the oldest film programs right in the middle of Hollywood decided to accept students to this program junior year only? Do you want to admit and teach only people who are already absolutely sure what they want to do and don’t just have strange ideas about red carpet and celebrity life style?"
**
I do not teach in the film school, so I cannot answer. But the top UCs have similar policies for many of their most impacted majors. It is more likely due to a limited number of openings in the major and giving students the chance to show they can thrive in UCLA’s rigorous academics before decisions are made. UCs, being publicly supported, can choose to limit those admitted to a very top pool.</p>
<p>**You wrote: “Somebody told here about USC, that they would not let you make your own films until you fulfill gen ed requirements (about 1.5 years)…”
**
This is untrue. Any student can make films from day one. However, USC as well as UCLA are first and foremost top 25 ranked academic universities. The curriculum for their degrees require significant work in general education, language and writing. If a film student is not interested in getting a very serious BA degree, they will not enjoy either school, no matter how fabulous their film departments are.</p>
<p>You wrote: " and when they do they kind of “assign” crew positions. Not everyone is allowed to direct. And this is the second film school with the longest history of the film major right in the middle of Hollywood."</p>
<p>This is incorrect. In one early film production class, each student makes 5 short films in one semester. And it gets more exciting from there. For senior project films, USC holds a competition among its students for funding. The students learn how to pitch their scripts, survey the market, get support and do rewrites in order to be selected. By senior year, not everyone in the program wants to direct. But it is something to consider when deciding to attend USC. Other schools may have other policies. But no other film school in the world has produced the number of success stories (Academy Awards, top grossing pictures, Emmys, etc etc) in the film/tv industry as USC–so their methods, teaching, and program seem to work.</p>
<p>**You say: “The whole idea of my posts was not to go after “prestige” getting huge loans when you actually don’t know yet what you are getting into.”
**
I agree with you.</p>
<p>You say: “As for moral aspects… I actually witnessed advances toward my own D a couple of times (she is still 17 y.o. by the way). I was advised to be quiet, walk away, never work with these people again but not officially complain or threaten anyone with any lawsuits.”</p>
<p>That’s deplorable and you were given bad advice. In the workplace, no matter what the industry, woman have been harassed and may face consequences if they speak out officially. Still, it is the only way to remove the rotten apples. In any event, it is wise to advise all our young adults–no matter where they work-- to be careful of who they meet. They should not stand for any crap.</p>
<p>**You say: “I am glad that you and people around you have certain moral values and I am sure that people love working with you and feel absolutely safe. Unfortunately this world is not ideal and people over there are very different. I am sorry that mentioning this FACT coursed so much distress among people who prefer to be ignorant.”
**
I think your tone here is just rude. How dare you suggest I or anyone posting here prefer to be ignorant? Perhaps you are projecting your own fears?</p>
<p>You say: “Again, I apologize for mentioning such a '“nasty” thing people prefer not to talk about.
I guess I should not even mention anything like drugs on the set…People probably prefer not to talk about this either.”</p>
<p>Yes, I object to you turning women into helpless children. But I am more disturbed that men like you still exist. Not just that you think these things, ya ya, but that you feel so filled with the conviction that your antiquated chauvinism is actually right. The reason sane men and women do not post such nonsense is not that they are ignorant. It’s that we have evolved, after 40 years of the women’s movement, into not expecting women to shrink back to desk work and cooking when many are capable of great accomplishments in other areas. Perhaps you think you are being helpful to strongly urge young women not to “waste” their parents money attending expensive film schools. The debate over how much money to spend on any undergrad degree is open for debate, of course. However, when you emphasize that it is really a waste for GIRLs to do to spend money on such a degree, you betray a fearful lack of understanding. It is no different than advising students not to go to ivy league schools–a big waste of money–but REALLY a big waste of money for girls, who won’t ever get ahead anyway. I hope you see how disturbing that sentiment is.</p>
<p>madbean</p>
<p>I reread your first post and just noticed that you thought I was a male. I am a female.
So all this big fight about “women’s movement” doesn’t make sense to me.
Since my mother, grandmother and great-grandmother were all very capable women, especially when all their men were killed in the war, they really did not have to fight for their rights of “being capable” and do “men’s” jobs, they simply always had these rights, way before 60’s. </p>
<p>I don’t want to continue all this unpleasant conversation. Since I am a FEMALE I just don’t have enough testosterone for this kind of battles and I don’t know English enough for this level of linguistic insults. I already had to look in dictionary twice.</p>
<p>I suggest we shake the hands and give this forum some peace.</p>
<p>OK, I am shocked that all this old-fashioned rhetoric is coming from a woman. I must now assume that our different cultures have given us different perspectives on the appropriateness of labeling certain careers as “men’s” jobs. In the US, it is frankly no longer correct to use such discriminatory language, especially in this context (creative professionals). I admire your ancestors’ great forbearing during the loss of all their men in wars–not only are women strong, but they can also advance quite far in professional life if they work hard. </p>
<p>Since I am also female (although I cannot claim all caps), I have no trouble getting into battles. But I suspect you are very right when you suggest we give this thread peace.</p>
<p>madbean
I explained before, that it was an ESL problem. And not only mine. We, foreign born Americans, tend to translate directly from native language and do it even after many year in this country. When you are talking to people face to face this problem is not that obvious but when you put words in written in the forum where nobody can see you and can read only words without “face” behind them, sometimes people think that it is something rude. It did not happen to me only, I read other 'misunderstandings" when somebody here in this forum told another person that “it was rude” or even “very rude” and the other person was, of course, an immigrant with a different native language.</p>
<p>I never-ever want to be intentionally rude, I hate being rude. </p>
<p>If my words were rude because I put them in the wrong order or “emphasized” something the wrong way, again, I am sorry.</p>
<p>Long cold silence for a day… not to hijack original posting, but clearly the emotions of women in film are true from both sides. As the father of a D in film, I would be interested in the well considered thoughts and concerns of Ya Ya, mad bean and others about the evolving role of women in film. I think the times are changing,curious to hear facts and anecdotes about the issue in another thread later when we calm down. Maybe a chapter in the 2nd edition of a good little book on film school admissions I read recently. Back to aozoki and her mom, any more questions/concerns?</p>
<p>The op probably knows this, but the cost difference is not $200k.
Ucla runs approx $29k (unless you live at home and commute) and nyu is around $65k - $10 k scholarship = $55k. So the additional cost is $25k per year or $100k.</p>