NYU Full Pay (no aid or merit) vs. Temple Honors (100% tuition covered).

Parents Forum
41

NYU really does not negotiate aid at the undergrad level. It’s possible that the student might be offered a pittance, but unlikely --because all of NYU’s aid is allocated based on how how they “rank” their incoming students. Top 5% get very generous aid. Then a whole large swath – maybe 50% or more (I don’t really know, but it seems like a lot) are given merit awards in the $10K range. If they “appeal” they may be offered $1-$2K more a year. $10-$12K doesn’t really make a dent in NYU’s cost. But the students who are offered -0- are pretty much at the bottom of NYU’s internal priority list – it’s something of an insult to not even be offered a token amount or merit money. So the likelihood of the daughter getting anything by mentioning the Temple award is extremely small.

Obviously the daughter is a very talented and capable student to be given such a generous award from Temple–so basically she has one university saying, “Please come. We’d love to have you. We love you so much that we’ll pay *you” to come here." And another university saying, “Meh… we’ll let you come, but don’t expect us to do you any favors.”

I know nothing whatsoever about Temple & its honors program, but typically full-ride, honors scholars get special treatment at their schools – for example, opportunities to meet with faculty or work on projects that are not open to typical students. A common perk is priority registration, which can be a huge benefit at any large university. I think that the daughter should go where she’s wanted. :slight_smile:

42

Yes, parents don’t just roll over and comply when their 6 yr olds ask for a pony or when their 16 year olds ask for a Lambourghini.

43

I think that unfortunately many high school students confuse the idea of where they want to live with their educational goals. They are coming for the NY part of the school, not the U. part.

But the NY part doesn’t require tuition and it won’t go away – a student can attend college anywhere in the country, then move to NY and look for work. It’s just that 17 year olds anxious to move onto a phase of their lives outside of their parental homes don’t really seem to appreciate that: they tend to see the college choice as if it is the be-all and end-all of everything.

44

This is probably the easiest, slam-dunk of a decision ever posted on CC. Temple, and let her get the nicest dorm, and some cash for the occasional weekend in New York if she likes. And a summer to explore wherever she likes. And a car. And a nice wedding. And a downpayment on her first home…

45

A combination of NYU’s successful marketing efforts, hiring of great faculty though they’re more of a benefit for grad students from what I keep hearing even from some of the faculty, increasing popularity of NYC as a destination in itself, increasing applications driving up selectivity which makes NYU undergrad look more impressive, etc.

What’s more interesting as a NYC native is watching this siren call be most effective on students the further away from NYC they happen to be.

46

NYU is way too expensive, yes. But consider it has the best Philosophy department IN THE WORLD (only people who care know this), while Temple is nowhere in the ranking. I mean people can be blown away by the NYU cost, but when it can give you the best of something in the world, please think hard about it. If she is determined to do Philosophy, go for NYU. If she’s not sure, go to Temple.

I want to do Philosophy too, and NYU also gives me no aid. And I’m not going there, because I can go to Rutgers where they have the #2 best Philosophy department, and maybe #1 in Aesthetics what I want to study.

I agree with @mom2and that your daughter should have had a better list of school if she wanted to major in Philosophy. Rutgers, U of Pitts, Wellesley, Reed,… should have been on the list.

47

I just want to emphasize the importance of getting in a good Philosophy program if she wants to do a PhD in Phil, you should look at this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/angst/201111/realities-studying-philosophy-non-elite-school

Some hard realities: http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/grad.htm - this is not to discourage but to urge your daughter to have a good plan in pursuing it

48

@rotckid, I think you need to appreciate that the first blog post you linked to was specifically dealing with the admissions path of students who are graduates of a CSU (Cal State)-- CSU’s are regional, not national universities- which mean that they do not offer PhD programs of their own. Temple University is a national Univ, which does have a PhD program of its own in Philosophy – I am not disputing your view of how it is ranked, but it is by definition going to have a much stronger department than any CSU.

Also I sensed some sour grapes in that article about the difficulty of getting into grad schools coming from a CSU. My son is a CSU grad and didn’t’ have a problem getting admitted to a well-respected graduate program at a flagship university in another state, although it was career-oriented master’s program rather than an academically focused PhD program. But my point is that in order to sustain its own PhD program, however “ranked”, Temple is going to have to maintain a much stronger faculty in its philosophy department than you would find at any CSU.

More important, however, is that students often change their interests and focus once in college. My d. thought she wanted to study linguistics. She was cured of that notion after taking a single course in linguistics. I think that philosophy is another discipline that often turns out to be something quite different than what the student envisioned. So picking an undergraduate college based on the strength of the reputation of its graduate departments isn’t always the best route either.

I agree that some of the other colleges you listed would have been wonderful choices for a youngster who is thinking about philosophy… but I sense from the OP’s daughter’s rather eclectic list of colleges that perhaps she isn’t all that certain of what she wants to to down the line. College is a time for growth & exploration, and it’s very common that students end up majoring in something entirely different than what they had considered when they were applying.

49

The article @rotckid linked to is mostly based on a blog post by a professor who did his undergrad at Stanford and is now a tenured professor at UC-Riverside, so no sour grapes there. CSU was mentioned, along with SUNY, as examples of large university systems that sent no undergrads to Princeton or Berkeley for philosophy grad school.

And while Temple is a national university, it is not ranked at all by the Gourmet Report, which is the major ranking for philosophy departments. Of course, grad school rankings are not that relevant for undergrad (for instance, based on the blog post Princeton and Stanford are generally better undergrad choices for those interested in philosophy than NYU), but there seems to be a large difference between the two departments.

I definitely agree that the OP should take into account the not unlikely possibility that her daughter will change interests in college.

50

Warbrain and rtockid point to the reasons why this is not the easiest decision. While I agree with some that NYU may be over-rated in terms of the quality of students, I am not sure that even in the honors program at Temple you would get kids with the same level of preparation and interest. If she is reasonably sure she wants to do philosophy or something similar, the caliber of the program may make a difference for grad school admissions. By the way, I am not a big fan of NYU and have heard some negative stories about the size of the classes and availability of professors, but the students I know that have gone there like it and think they have gotten a good education. The $70+K COA includes personal expenses and is only for Tisch (the Arts school).

Most kids that get into a highly ranked school like NYU likely have the opportunity to get significant merit money at a school like Temple, their in-state public, or another lower-ranked college. For example, the UT-Dallas offers free rides (or used to) to NMSF students, but not many take them up on it. A lot of students do not even apply to these schools and so leave similar amounts of money on the table, but just don’t know it. There has to be some point at which the extra money is worth it for the quality. Is it in this case? Not clear, but how many of those saying take Temple had their kids apply to a school where they would likely get a full ride or close to it?

51

In order to justify the cost of attending NYU, the OP and her daughter have to feel that the difference is worth close to a quarter of a million dollars over four years. That “higher caliber” student body will include many who think nothing of spending more than $100 to go out clubbing on a Saturday night. The OP’s family can, technically, afford NYU, but they will be giving up a lot for the daughter to go there. I say this as someone who attended college in NYC (Barnard), and lived there for years. Philly is not NYC, but a family that has to empty its coffers for a member to attend NYU is not going to be in a position to pay for all the attractions (e.g. theater tickets, restaurants, concerts, etc.). As I and others posted previously, the daughter will be able to afford weekend getaways to NYC if she goes to Temple. She will also be in a position to accept unpaid internships, find affordable off-campus housing, and enjoy the rich local cultural scene. Philly has a vibrant arts scene because it IS affordable for young, creative people. Philly is a poorer city, with a higher crime rate than NYC, but it’s safer now than it was in the '70s. When people mention fear of crime as a reason not to attend Temple, I have to ask whether they’d bring that up if the OP’s daughter were admitted to Penn or U.Chicago. I suspect the risk of falling victim to a violent crime is lower than risks related to alcohol at any campus in the country.

52

That’s relevant for grad school which if one desires to maximize chances of a viable chance on the tenure track should be fully funded by the department/outside grants anyways.

NYU undergrad on the other hand is structured in such a way that most who’ve attended or taught there likened the undergrad experience like an academically decent large state university. Considering its bureaucracy and Profs…especially topflight Profs prioritizing research/publications and grad students much more over undergrads, the experience isn’t worth going into such large debt over. The overall pool/academic environment while improved compared to when I attended HS, is still not remotely comparable to its grad/professional school counterparts at the same school. Only possible exceptions to this are Stern* or Tisch…but they’re irrelevant for OP’s D anyways.

Especially if one is planning to pursue further academic studies where the future of even gaining relevant gainful employment is so uncertain even if one ends up at a topflight PhD program…and that’s not guaranteed even if one attended NYU CAS.

  • Even though Stern attracts stronger students on average and has a sterling reputation as an elite undergrad b-school, many HS classmates and NYC locals had no hesitation in turning down Stern for schools like CUNY-Baruch. Most HS classmates I knew who did so later had no issues getting their MBAs from NYU, Columbia, Wharton, and Harvard.
53

This is where I get crazy. You have an 18 year old smart kid who thinks she wants to major in Philosophy. Well, that’s great.

She is 18. I assume she doesn’t have much philosophy training under her belt already. So the many professors at Temple will have PLENTY to teach this kid at this level. PLENTY!

If she is really inclined and really finds that it is for her she can do all sort of extra study and advanced work including a thesis. Maybe she will be able to take grad classes.

The Honors designation should open all sorts of avenues for her.

It’s not as if she is a child protégé in this field. Sure maybe NYU is better but for Petes sake she could have one on one sessions with the worlds greatest philosophers for a small fraction of that $250,000.

54

@rotckid…A professor of Philosophy that I know when asked about this situation even said to go to Temple.

55

Agree with sax: Honors designation should open doors – being a big fish in a small pond might, too.

56

I don’t think the difference in sizes of the ponds between Temple Honors and NYU CAS is nearly as large as NYU or some posters here would have you believe.

While grad/professional school’s a different story, that doesn’t impact NYU’s undergrad divisions nearly as much as some think with the possible exceptions of Tisch and Stern…which are irrelevant to OP’s D anyways.

57

It really comes down to the value of that NYU degree. There are areas of NYU where it might mean something, like Stern where its reputation makes it one of the pre-eminent business schools, and things like the contemporary music program or the recording engineering program may be worth it, but in reality (my opinion only) NYU’s reputation for UG is somewhat overblown in its impact, and NYU has to me played a shell game, they have in the past 30 years gotten a lot of money from Alumni, and they sell themselves as basically a ivy level school, they have raised their admission stats, but in some ways it hasn’t changed all that much from when I went there. A lot of the classes are still taught by TA’s, and a lot of the ‘distinguished professors’ teach a couple of grad seminars, but basically hang out to do research and get all the groovy perks NYU gives them (in my day, they made a big deal about McGeorge Bundy teaching there, which basically meant he was hanging out, teaching a couple of grad seminars, and writing his next book and doing lecture appearences at 50k a pop). I think for most of the undergrad experience, I think the school is way oversold, for example, while the Courant institute is one of the top mathematics and CS research centers around, its UG CS program is pretty much what you would find elsewhere (and that is based on real experience, my degree is from there, and I also keep in touch with people who have kids there and I know a couple of instructors, too), it isn’t stanford of carnegie Mellon or the UC Illinois-Urbana…

NYU does have a great campus (well, okay, area of the city really, they kind of have taken over a large swath of the central village and some of the east village), it was in my day and has gotten a bit better, if a lot less interesting (in the sense that the incredible gentrification has taken away a lot of what made the village the village, it has lost a lot of its bohemian identity and is now mostly about upscale living from west to east, the artists and the gays and other bohemians are long gone, leaving behind ghosts of the past). However, it comes with a cost, the village of today reflects the gentrification, there is very little of the cheap thrills that once made it fun for someone without a lot of money. Another poster was dead spot on, NYU is crappy with aid, they may claim ivy league ambitions, but the ivies are a lot more generous with aid, and basically what NYU has done is sold itself as a ‘great school’ and attracts a lot of well off kids who can afford to go there, it is especially popular among foreign students with families with a lot of money. And the description of kids blowing money going out clubbing, expensive clothing and so forth is very true, it is probably a lot less diverse than the true elite schools…

Do I think it is worth going to NYU? as someone who ended up paying full freight versus a free ride, it comes down to what the student wants to do going down the road and how the school really impacts your future. I know nothing about philosophy, so I can’t comment on how they choose grad students, and if in fact there is that kind of snob appeal in academia in philosophy, where they use rankings to determine how good a school is or the person is, then if NYU has a good reputation in those circles, it may be worth it. On the other hand, what if D decides to do something else? What if she decides she wanted to study let’s say comp sci or social work or whatever, where they plan to go to grad school for a master’s degree or maybe a phd (but let’s say not teaching), is it worth going to NYU, paying that freight, if she decides to change her mind, as so many kids do? I could argue that if she decided to go to NYU, didn’t like philosophy, then wanted to go to the business school, it might make sense, but you don’t know that (and transferring into the business school isn’t so easy, it isn’t like changing major in WSUC, it is basically a transfer application from what I recall).

It is not an easy decision. Temple is in a crappy area, the campus is relatively safe, but even compared to the U of Chicago or U Penn, the area is pretty bad, even Columbia in the 70’s had a relatively stable area to the west of it, Temple is kind of surrounded, and NYU is in a very upscale area with a city that literally is safer than many rural areas these days and so forth. Maybe go back and visit temple if you can, see what it is like on campus, and see if your comfort level is there. I had a cousin who went to Fordham at its Rose Hill Campus, and that was not a great area, and they had pretty tight security there…but it also may be different since it is your daughter and also may come down to how street smart you think she is.

Personally, given the cost of NYU, it would take a lot for me to justify it, if temple didn’t look attractive because of the program or area, then if there was a less costly option then NYU, I would look at that as an alternative.When I went to NYU, it still was very much a commuter school and one of its mandates at the time was to try and give educational opportunities to those who might be the first in the family to go to college, they seemed to have a committment to education (maybe cause the school was still financially trying to dig itself out of the hole they had from the 1970’s), as an alumnus what I see is a school that got a ton of money into it, and spent a lot of money on buildings and such (which wasn’t a bad idea, they needed them), but kind of turned it into a pseudo ivy, they wanted the prestige to be able to market it to well off kids who could pay full freight, where they spent money on ‘elite’ teachers and becoming a real estate giant, rather than trying to help kids get an education and spending the money of helping make it affordable…so I am not unbiased. I would give temple or another school a serious look…

One note, in the end, if you really feel like NYU is going to make her future, if she feels that is the way (for now) to get into a top philosophy PHD program and it looks likely she is serious about it, then go for it, but only if you feel that strongly that it will make a difference in her future. Like I said, we faced that with music, and in the end the choice to shell out full freight was because our S felt that the teacher and school he went to were that much better that it was worth it (music is also a bit different, these were stand alone conservatories, so you don’t ‘switch majors’ or such, so it is in for a dime, in for a dollar).

58

Is there a point at which it would be worth it? Or is this about NYU in particular? Meaning if the choice was between Tufts and Temple honors would the answer be the same? Harvard and Temple Honors? NYU and an unranked, third tier school? Just wondering if there is a point at which it becomes worth the extra money. There are certainly a lot of full-pay students at NYU (and similar schools) who think it is worth it. If the kid wants a top tier law school would NYU open more doors?

We have (and likely will again) taken the merit money, even though the location is less desirable. In one case, the schools were identically ranked. In the other, the merit school is ranked lower but not that much. But still spending more than we would in honors program at In-State U or at some other school even further down the list that would have given big merit aid.

59

If it didn’t require the parents to sell a kidney- than I imagine at some point it is “worth it” although every families point will be different.

For us- there were many engineering U’s which I would not have paid for. We were full freight at MIT and I think it was worth every penny vs. what might have been a free ride further down the food chain. But I would not have paid full freight at a number of U’s if the choice had been that vs. a state U (not our own flagship unfortunately- didn’t have the “full package” in terms of what our kid was looking for).

So it will vary by family.

I personally believe that Tufts (to use Mom’s example) is wildly underrated by folks on CC who have bought the “Tufts syndrome” factor hook line and sinker. So I would be taking a hard look at both Tufts and Temple if that were my family’s decision. It’s not clear to me that even a real go-getter kid could replicate the Tufts experience at Temple (speaking on strict academic terms). But perhaps the OP’s kid can- in which case- go for it.

60

No.

Unless the undergrad concerned is an HYPS level elite*, admissions is based overwhelmingly on one’s undergrad GPA and LSAT score.

  • Even then, what I've heard from some HYPS undergrad alums and some law Profs is that the nod is very slight for those who are on the borderline regarding GPA/LSAT.

Some major differences between Tufts and NYU:

  1. Tufts is much more generous with need-based FA and college scholarships based on experiences of several HS classmates who applied and admitted to both. With most of those friends, it was the same no-brainer decision to attend Tufts* as it was for me to opt for Oberlin versus NYU CAS.
  2. Tufts is much more of an LAC-like U so the undergrad experience there is much more personalized.
  3. Tufts has much higher admission standards in my day and from what I've heard from parents of current applicants, moreso now.
  • Assuming they didn't receive admission offers from higher ranking elites colleges with comparable/better FA/scholarship offers.