NYU vs UMich for undergraduate jazz studies

@StacJip and @musicprnt-thanks for again for sharing this info. StacJip, I completely understand your concerns regarding student life in NYC. NYU seems to acknowledge the tough transition period and has some programs in place for freshman, I’m not really sure about New School; if they do, they haven’t made it obvious. Also, from what I see on their website, New School only offers a BFA in Jazz, there is no masters program at this time, unfortunately, so it’s now or never. musicprnt, tuition at New School is very similar to NYU, just slightly less. So unfortunately that doesn’t help make a decision.

Thanks again for your insights, they’ve been very helpful!

New School was one of the four music schools that my son ended up applying to a few years ago and, as I mentioned, he has several friends there now. One of his friends was admitted to the Harvard/NEC joint program and turned it down for New School, which blows my mind to be honest, but says something about the attractiveness of the New School program. In any event, with the caveat that it’s been a few years since my son applied, here are some thoughts.

New School had the most unstructured of the jazz programs my son looked at, which might be either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the student. It allows a great deal of flexibility – it’s a bit of a chart your own course type of thing – which can be great for the self-directed and motivated student. But my son says it’s also possible to drift and not do much of anything there if you’re not self-directed and motivated. They facilitate access to a fairly impressive array of resources, but it’s up to the student to take advantage of those resources. For example, their “faculty” list is a mile-long list of performing jazz musicians (here’s a link: http://www.newschool.edu/jazz/faculty-az/). My understanding is that the students are free to contact anyone on the list to try to make arrangements for lessons and, if the musician is willing to take them on, they can enroll for lessons through the school. But I don’t know how much, if anything, the school does to persuade the preferred teacher to agree to take on any given student. Just as an example of some of the names on the list for piano (in alphabetical order): Kenny Barron, Bruce Barth, George Cables, Gerald Clayton, Taylor Eigsti, Aaron Goldberg, Fred Hersch, Vijay Iyer, Frank Kimbrough, Aaron Parks, Edward Simon, Glenn Zaleski. Those are just names that jumped out as familiar to me – my guess is that there are others on the list who would be familiar to your son. And they continue to attract some of the best high school jazz musicians from around the country, so there’s a great pool of talented kids to play with.

I don’t know about student housing – at least one of my son’s friends there lives off campus – but I know they’re close to completion on (or maybe just completed) a fairly major new building, so you could ask whether that includes housing. As @musicprnt says, the location is near NYU, in the heart of the NYC jazz scene. It’s a much smaller school than NYU, so my guess is that the bureaucracy is easier to navigate. And if they’re offering a joint degree program, I expect that access to the liberal arts school has to be built into the program. If you and your son are able to do it, I would think a revisit would be great to get more information about the school and talk with current students about their day to day experiences. (And you could do a revisit at NYU too.) If that’s not possible, I’m sure you can ask for more information from the admissions office, and maybe they could set your son up with some students to talk with by phone. Best of luck with the decision! As I said before, I think any of the choices will be a good one.

Ah, yes, NYU bureaucracy. When I went to school there back in the dark ages, the registration process was like something out of the 1950’s. with cards for each class and literally using the score marks (IIII then cross it out for 5) to see how many are registered…so the lines were horrible, etc. There was a joke running around, a young women, obviously pregnant, is on the line, and she asks one of the guards when she will be done, because she is due soon. The guard tells her “miss, you shouldn’t have come here in your state”,her response was “I wasn’t in this state when I first got on this line!” Just as a note, NYU didn’t at least partially automate the registration process until the early 90’s…

@jazzpianodad, my son was just admitted to The New School and called specifically for information about working with different faculty. He was told that the student can request to study with anyone on the faculty list - or even beyond - and then the school, not the student, contacts the teacher and makes arrangements. And students are free to study with faculty on different instruments. For example, a pianist can study with a trumpet player, etc. (I know this is more meaningful in jazz than in classical.) However, before a student can do any of this, he/she must first pass proficiency in his/her instrument, which can take a minimum of one semester or the entire undergraduate career, depending on the student’s skill level. My son is excited about those opportunities, which don’t really exist at the more traditional conservatories. However, it is true that The New School is less structured and you need to be self-motivated, focused, and disciplined to do well. So much depends on the student and his/her goals, personality, and maturity level.

Thanks @GotThatSwing96‌, good to know. I have to say, that faculty list is insane.

@GotThatSwing96 Thanks so much for posting this information, this really helps. I will pass it along to my son. Congratulations to your son on being admitted to New School!

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts. My S is still deciding :-w Hopefully he’ll decide soon!

@Violet4, there’s no rush. He should get as much information as he can and make as informed a decision as he can. My son took until the last day of April! :slight_smile:

gotthatswing, just so others know students at NEC can also study with any faculty as long as that faculty agrees to take them into their studio. For Jazz musicians there are many reasons why they might benefit from taking regular lessons with faculty whose primary instrument is not their primary instrument. When our son decided to not study with a double bass teacher I had my concerns, but he has consistently been improving so what ever he is doing must be working.

I am on my second D at NYU. My oldest D was a vocal performance major and graduated in 2012 with a BM degree. My youngest is currently a junior in Steinhardt studying studio art.

Being in small talent based programs like music and art, creates an instant community within the larger university setting. NYU freshman are all in the same boat, and both girls formed many friendships as freshman that continue to this day. In music and art, there are certain required classes that students must take, and they are often on the same schedule as a group of classmates for these classes. Welcome week is a week long opportunity to meet people. On top of that, younger D did an Explorations floor for housing, which was also a cohesive group of students. Her best friends today are from that freshman Explorations floor, the art department, steinhardt scholars, and the Bronfman center starting with a Birthright trip.

My older D, now almost 3 years post graduation, counts many of her former classmates as her very close friends. She also has a very strong network of people she is in contact with through the music department.

As daunting as NYU can seem, both D’s never had a problem finding friends. I would also add that neither of them have wealthy spoiled friends. Yes, some kids have money, but a lot do not. It has not been a problem.

Good luck making your choice!!

Thanks @StacJip and @uskoolfish! It’s helpful to hear from a parent who has had children at NYU. Nice to hear that your daughters didn’t have trouble making friends and that not all students are extremely wealthy and/or spoiled. Although NYU would be a harder transition for him initially, I think my S would do fine at either school. He does have a good friend going to Michigan who is also a music major with whom he could room; this may sway his decision, even though he is trying not to let it influence him.

Just as an aside, Michigan has been very proactive and reaching out to my son with mailings and they even had a current music student give him a call last night to answer any questions he may have about the program. NYU has sent mailings as well, but we have not heard one peep out of The New School. We went on to their portal to see he was admitted, but they have not sent even one email or letter since then. Interesting to see the follow-through of the different schools after admittance.

Thanks again everyone. I will post his decision once he decides.

Edit to above^ My S did receive some emails from New School. So, I take that back, that haven’t been completely uncommunicative. We still haven’t received any kind of welcome packet in the mail though.

Update: my S is still deciding. He has received calls from students from both Michigan and NYU. He spoke with the student from NYU yesterday and had a great discussion. Now he seems to be leaning towards NYU—what a roller coaster!

I hear you. I am glad to be off this Rollercoaster and on to finally planning his graduation party and senior recital.

I don’t have any first-hand college experience to offer but we live in Ann Arbor and my son has gotten to know quite a few of the jazz faculty through masterclasses at his high school, summer camp, community-based jazz bands, etc. They may not all be household names but I don’t know that you’d find a better group of educators anywhere in the country. Of course, the one household name they do have on their faculty is Benny Green (I think you wrote that your son is a jazz pianist?) We’ve heard him perform twice since he joined the faculty and he’s fabulous. My son has a good friend (also a high school junior) who has been taking lessons from Prof. Green and even has him monitoring an independent study composition course. Says a lot, IMO, about an educator’s level of engagement with his students and the community. We see the faculty performing around Ann Arbor all the time. We’ve heard about so many jazz professors who spend more time touring and working on their own careers than teaching their students. I know kids want to study with superstars but I think there are definite trade-offs, especially as undergrads.

So much depends on the individual student - their personality, maturity level, interests, and where they are in their development as musicians. NYC can be overwhelming for many kids who’d otherwise thrive in a smaller, more nurturing environment, at least until they’re a little older. Also, some kids want a more typical college experience than you get in NYC. For example, we have friends whose daughter (not a music major) is transferring out of The New School after one year because she realized she wants a real campus with college football games, etc. That’s something students at UMich have that NYU and New School students don’t. On the other hand, my son and his music peers, who are all serious jazz nerds, believe that NYC is the only place to be if you want to be a successful jazz performer. I don’t believe that’s true, but, as my kids will tell you, I don’t know much…:slight_smile:

Thanks @ScreenName48105 and @GotThatSwing96!
My S has been getting a lot of advice from various people, and his mind changes accordingly. Basically he feels he needs to decide between having a mentor for four years, which he would get at UMich or having more instructors for shorter periods of times, which he would have at NYU. Both scenarios have their advantages.

As far as campus life, he is not interested in sports that much, so the lack of football games at NYU does not bother him. However, he is considering whether he may need some time to develop as a musician, and simply as a human being, before tackling the New York jazz scene.

He was not able to get a lesson at either school. However, he did meet Prof. Green during his audition at UMich and really liked him. I think this alone is drawing him back to Michigan. It’s great to hear Prof. Green is around Ann Arbor enough to have lessons with high school students—that does say a lot.

Thanks again to everyone for their input. S’s self-imposed deadline is this Friday—will post decision as soon as he hits the “accept” button.

Has he tried for a skype lesson? I overheard my son’s sample skyple lesson and it was just as good as in person.

Thanks @cellomom6! No, he hasn’t tried that. I will mention it to him. Sounds like a good idea.

It seemed like it would not work, but it went very well. Definitely give it a try.