<p>One more thing: “It’s no secret that at many Ivies - Yale included - athletes comprise a very high percentage of the student body.” </p>
<p>I’m interested in this statement because it differs so much from my experience; I don’t think that I met a single serious athlete in my time at Yale (and stayed there for grad school after college). What is your source for this information, Cue?</p>
<p>beatitudo,</p>
<p>If you are a parent, then your experience is from another generation. Perhaps Cue7’s statement reflects more of a current scene? If your statement is based on what’s currently “in vogue” in Ivy schools, then my comment is null.</p>
<p>Beatitido - While your yale experience might not have involved sports, I think my statement is accurate, at least from a statistical standpoint. If you go to the Yale athletics website ([Yale</a> Bulldogs: Yale University Official Athletic Site](<a href=“http://www.yalebulldogs.com/landing/index]Yale”>Yale University - Official Athletics Website)) you’ll see that Yale offers about 34 competitive Division I sports, from squash and baseball to fencing and sailing and golf. </p>
<p>Now, lets assume that each sport has 20 DI athletes on its roster. This is a rough number, because some sports, like football, have considerably more than 20 athletes on its roster, and other sports, like golf, have less. Since we’re just ballparking here, though, lets say each of the 34 sports have around 20 athletes on the roster. This means, at Yale, there are close to 700 DI athletes on campus at any given time. Each class at Yale is around 1300, so that means about 13-15% of the student body is involved in DI athletics. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if you look at Chicago, the U of C offers about 17 DIII sports - which are less demanding than DI sports - on campus. Chicago also has about 1300 students per class, so this works out to maybe only 6-8% of the student body being involved in the less competitive DIII sports scene. </p>
<p>So, overall, Yale has at least twice the emphasis - statistically - on sports in comparison to Chicago. Now, 13-15% isn’t a huge number, and not high enough so that everyone feels the athletes’ impact in their Yale experience, but it’s at least double the representation than at a place like Chicago. </p>
<p>Finally, 34 sports for a student body of around 5000 represents a pretty significant sports program. Ohio State, with a student body 5 times the size of Yale’s, only offers about 30 DI sports. </p>
<p>Most of the ivies, even the small ones (such as Princeton or Dartmouth), offer at least 30+ sports. While you may not have felt the impact of this program directly, it’s pretty idiosyncratic for such a small student body to support such an extensive sports program, and it’s just something the ivies share in common, and a quality that Chicago certainly does not share. To be comparable to the ivies, the first step would be for Chicago to really make some costly and significant changes to its sports program.</p>
<p>Again, while your specific experience might not have involved the Yale sports scene, statistics indicate that Yale has a pretty extensive and elaborate sports set up on campus.</p>
<p>Beatitido,to give you a further sense of an ivy league’s emphasis on sports participation, Notre Dame and Duke, two elite schools with a more general following for their sports teams, only field about 20 competitive DI sports each. Both these schools are also bigger than Yale, but Yale actually has significantly more DI athletes walking around its campus than either ND or Duke. </p>
<p>Additionally, Princeton, with an even smaller class than Yale, has an even HIGHER emphasis on sports. Princeton fields close to FORTY (40!) DI teams. Something like 1 in 5 Princeton students is involved in a DI sport.</p>
<p>Also, the athletes at Chicago, unlike those at Ivy League schools, are very similar academically to the rest of the student body. As described in Reclaiming the Game by Bowen ([Bowen</a>, W.G. and Levin, S.A.: Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values.](<a href=“All Books | Princeton University Press”>http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7577.html)), Ivy leagues athletes ,especially those in football, basketball and hockey are on average materially weaker academically than their classmates. Ivy student athletes are often given preferential admission.</p>
<p>At Chicago on the other hand, the varsity teams’ GPAs are virtually the same as that of the student body as a whole, and if they are given a material boost in admissions it’s news to me. See quick facts section in [University</a> of Chicago Athletics](<a href=“http://athletics.uchicago.edu/#]University”>http://athletics.uchicago.edu/#). Bowen’s book also points to Chicago’s key role in founding the UAA athletic conference.</p>
<p>I am tempted to brag that in my day Chicago athletes actually had higher than average GPAs, but I suppose today’s teams would probably have whipped us and very few of us would be able to get in today anyway!</p>
<p>Congrats to accepted students and good luck to the other amazing young people who haven’t yet gotten good news.</p>
<p>Many Chicago students have a significant sports background, 43% of the class of 2013 were varsity athletes. <a href=“https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/admissions/classprofile.shtml[/url]”>https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/admissions/classprofile.shtml</a></p>
<p>idad - that’s true, I’m not saying Chicago doesn’t have a reasonably athletic student body, I’m just saying that the number who devote a significant portion of their time to collegiate athletics at a high level is relatively low. </p>
<p>I played 3 varsity sports in high school before Chicago, but there’s a huge difference between being involved in sports at the high school level and competing at the DI college level. I’m sure a lot of Yale kids were athletes in high school too. Having 15% of the student body devoted to DI athletics, however, changes the complexion of a school.</p>
<p>I’m with Cue7 on this. Athletes were certainly a presence at Yale when I was there, and there was a significant spectator culture. Ever heard of The Game? Not everyone was involved in it, and it wasn’t anything like my Duke friends describe, but there is nothing remotely similar at Chicago. The quality of the athletes was also much higher – not all of them, but the average. Two people I knew at Yale had meaningful NFL careers, and there were two Olympians in my college. Even the intramural program was more serious. Our college teams had uniforms, tryouts, practices. The top three teams in any sport would have games against the equivalent Harvard house teams. There was strong intramural competition in helmet sports – football, hockey, lacrosse. (You want to see something scary, go watch an intramural football game with full equipment. The casualty rate was pretty high. I hope they don’t do THAT any more.)</p>
<p>Yale also does real athletic recruiting. It doesn’t offer scholarships, of course, and there ARE academic standards, but it’s there. I suppose Chicago must recruit some players, too. But I know a kid who is playing on a major D-III sport there, and he wasn’t so much recruited as encouraged. The difference between his experience and my neighbor’s, who was recruited to many D-III teams and some Ivies in the same sport, was night and day.</p>
<p>I really like the Chicago sports scene. One of my kids is on a serious club team that hires a professional coach, practices 10 hours/week and schedules plenty of competitions. People engage in lots of fitness activities, and stuff like midnight soccer is fun. But overall the sports emphasis is far below Yale’s.</p>
<p>@ chicagoboy- “…and if they [athletes] are given a material boost in admissions it’s news to me.”</p>
<p>Really? Are you part of the admissions process and are you a coach or person of authority on Maroon Athletics? Or are you “just saying” this? Please think logically or use logic thoughtfully (pun intended) before posting that. Do you honestly think athletics has no impact? Sure UChicago is DIII but without having admissions allow for athletes to get accepted, there would be NO sports teams at all. Seeing as UChicago teams have been quite succesful in recent years in the post-season, this seems a clear indication that talented athletes are given some extra merit in the application process. The teams would not be as good as they are if they were composed of simply “walk-ons.” Also, if you look at the Class of 2013 thread, there is a person with a 28 ACT who clearly states his main “hook” as being: Sport.</p>
<p>While my S contacted a Chicago coach about his helmet sport, I can unequivocally say that he did not get a tip w/admissions. He sent the coach a transcript and reported his 2290 SAT, but was too busy with his full IB courseload and sports practice to send in a DVD this fall. Is hoping to get that piece done over winter break. However, I suspect they may delighted to see a 6’4", 265 lb. walk-on who got in on his academic bonafides.</p>
<p>@ CountingDown- At UChicago as long as your S displays interest, is above average, and has prior knowledge of the sport, I’m sure the coach would be delighted to have him walk-on. If an athlete does get help with admissions, then they certainly know about it because they discuss this aspect of recruiting with the coach. Just contacting a coach alone by no means guarantees help with admission unless there is an indicated interest on the other side.
(maybe this should have gone in the athletics thread, whoops)</p>
<p>Kafkadream - of course athletes get a boost at Chicago, because they provide skills that will lead to a more well-rounded class. </p>
<p>Chicago athletes, however, do not receive close to the attention and preferential treatment that ivy athletes receive. For more info on this, read the Bowen book that was discussed in this thread. Also, from counseling some athletes that went on to ivy schools, I can assure you that the ivy athletes receive all sorts of preferential treatments because of their ability to kick a ball or jump high. Perhaps most bluntly, the ivy athletes oftentimes hear a lot earlier than the rest of admitted students. Ivy athletes applying oftentimes hear their decisions by late October, and coaches can provide virtual assurances of entry to make the admissions process pretty seamless for most of these athletes. </p>
<p>From an institutional perspective, there’s of course reason for this. Generally, there’s a lot more riding on ivy league sports and more alum interest in these sports. No one at Chicago really cares either way how good the volleyball or wrestling team does, but ivy basketball or crew is a much bigger deal. </p>
<p>Also, Chicago really isn’t that good of a DIII sports school. For more info on this, please check out the latest NCAA Sears cup rankings. The Sears cup creates a top-to-bottom ranking of all the colleges’ sports programs. The schools with teams that win more are more highly ranked. </p>
<p>You can go here (and look to the right of the page) for the current sears cup rankings: <a href=“http://www.nacda.com/[/url]”>http://www.nacda.com/</a></p>
<p>Curious about the schools that do well? Right now, Stanford and Princeton are in the top 5 for DI schools, and Williams and Amherst are in the top 5 for DIII schools. Traditionally, Stanford, Duke, and Princeton do well for DI schools, and Williams dominates on the DIII level. </p>
<p>Where’s Chicago on the sears cup list? It’s generally ranked between 50-60. For a school of Chicago’s prominence, you’d think it’d be able to recruit better than, say, Ithaca College or Allegheny College (schools with roughly comparable sports programs), but it’s hard to overestimate just how much Chicago still emphasizes the academic life. </p>
<p>Bottom line on recruited athletes: a kid with a 1300+ SAT and great ability in lacrosse or squash or crew is probably going to have more ivy options than the hookless 1500+ SAT applicant. At Chicago, it may be the other way around.</p>
<p>Cue7: Athletes do get a bit of preferential treatment; they get to pick classes before everyone else. Advisers meet with them on the very beginning of course selection, ahead of everyone else. That’s about it. The system nonetheless opens and closes spots randomly, so I guess that doesn’t count as a substantial advantage for athletes.</p>
<p>Divine Comedy - sure there’s some preferential treatment, but really, it’s a far cry from the experience athletes have at ivy schools or the elite DI schools.</p>
<p>Honestly, if I had kids and wanted them to have the most elite college options as possible, I’d focus on making sure they could get solid grades and SAT scores (1350+), but also had significant proficiency in a somewhat esoteric sport, like squash or crew or ice hockey.</p>
<p>Cue7: Friend of S2 took up field goal kicking this year, okay at it, not great, and has been recruited at a top college with decent, but not startling stats, 2100 SAT 3.65 GPA, so your strategy is a good one.</p>
<p>idad: and if you think of all the other sports that most of america just doesn’t play (squash, crew, sailing, fencing, etc.), gaining proficiency in these sports can provide a pretty good hook for the elite college admissions game. If a kid starts squash or fencing in 6th or 7th grade, and is a reasonable athlete, by the time senior year rolls around…</p>
<p>I think we can agree that certainly Ivy league admission is much easier for athletes and easier than it would be for athletes at say UChicago. Since this is a Chicago part of the forum, the question many might have is- how exactly does it help with admissions? From my experience (knowing kids who were recruited) I saw two athletes get accepted into Chicago with lower standardized scores and weaker essays then my other normal college applicant friend who had much stronger essays and about 60pts higher on the SAT. Of course this is only one person’s perspective, but make of it what you will…</p>
<p>KafkaDream – that was my point. He’s just an EA who’d like to play a helmet sport in college who sent a transcript and Common App athletic supplement to the coach. We never expected anything more than that, and frankly, S wanted to be admitted on his academics and essays, not his athletic ability. (He knew the academic angle had a better shot than the athletic anyway. :))</p>
<p>Kafkadream - ya I think it’s harder to quantify exactly for Chicago. According to studies done by scholars like William Bowen and Jerome Karabel, athletics can make up for as much as a 150-200 point SAT deficiency. At Chicago, athletics might only be “worth” 50-60 SAT points. </p>
<p>For Chicago, focusing more on having very high SAT scores, crafting great essays, etc., may be just as useful an endeavor as building ability in squash or crew. Now, there may be some sports where the coaches have more pull (the U of C has become known as a women’s soccer school of sorts), but generally, it’s not THAT big of a boon.</p>
<p>Cue7- Interesting little discussion we’ve come upon. </p>
<p>After some thinking and looking at the low number of remaining spots left in RD, it would be interesting to see how many of these will be occupied by athletes. I would think that most athletes apply RD over EA if they hope to get their most recent stats to the coach (ex. big time sports like football and basketball along with cross and swim) combined with the fact that most athletes are heavily involved in the fall and a little too busy for the focus of an application. Some teams could be left without any new recruits if the RD acceptance rate is truly as low as the rumors and UChicago maintains as low of a focus on recruits as it has in the past. </p>
<p>Could we see a tilt towards Ivy admission in this scenario where athletics truly does make a difference when there are only 600 spots left and a coach is needy of fresh talent?</p>