<p>Our public school does not have a diverse population but we still made the list. </p>
<p>I don’t know how AP Calc AB/BC is taught at other schools, but my DD13a’s teacher told us at open house that the course he teaches is equivalent to college Calc 1 and 2 with a little 3 (is that multivariable? Not a math person) thrown I at the end of the year. Last year was an “off” year foe his class. Out of 26 students ONLY 17 got 5’s; the rest got 4’s. He is really good at teaching this stuff. It is mostly a senior only class, but my DD13a and one other jr boy were allowed to take it this year.</p>
<p>Do any of you feel like the USNWR ranking is totally skewed? I noticed that a large percentage of top ranked schools were magnet or specialty schools. In my book that’s a quasi-private school because they can pick their students. I don’t have a problem with those sorts of schools per se but I’m thinking they should have a different catagory for “true” public schools.</p>
<p>Not necessarily. A lot of colleges, particularly the larger Unis, offer algebra-based physics in addition to Calc-based. Algebra-based physics is all that is needed for pre-health wannabes, for example.</p>
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<p>Outstanding numbers, but the Calc test has the most forgiving ‘curve’ of all APs, with 2-3 x the number of 5’s than on other AP’s.</p>
<p>walker, the criteria doesn’t say the school has to have a diverse population, it says the ‘least advantaged’ students have to be doing better than average for the state. That is the only reason I can see that our school, which has higher numbers in every category than the high ranking schools in the state, is unranked.</p>
<p>my D’s AP psych course is really tough. Maybe the subject matter is considered “less rigorous”, but the teacher makes it really over the top in terms of work load. He stated at the beginning of the year that he does not teach for the test and does not cover everything for the AP test, he "teaches Psychology’…he told the class that his own stats are, if you get a B in his class, you will get a 5 on the exam…</p>
<p>Excluding some of the foreign languages the hardest by mean score are:</p>
<p>World History 2.57
Human Geography 2.61
Environmental Science 2.66
U.S. Government and Politics 2.67
Biology 2.70
U.S. History 2.75
Macro Economics 2.76
Chemistry 2.77
English Lit/European History 2.81
Calculus AB/Stats 2.82</p>
<p>The top easiest by mean score:</p>
<p>Calculus BC 3.77
Physics C E&M 3.47
Physics C Mechanics 3.38
Studio Art 2-D Design 3.18
Psychology 3.12
Computer Science A 3.10</p>
<p>I think many of you are looking at this the wrong way. An AP course is not less rigorous because it covers two semesters of college work in one semester. It is rigorous simply because high school students are covering material typically covered in college. Some students are as young as 14 when they take these classes. It stands to reason that a 14 year old might need a bit more time to cover material typically taught to an 18 year old college student.</p>
<p>The rigor of the courses need to be evaluated against HIGH SCHOOL courses, not college courses.</p>
<p>That it is considered an appropriate course for high school freshmen does indicate how diluted the AP brand has become, since it is supposed to indicate competence in material appropriate for college freshmen.</p>
<p>Yes, this is how high school calculus BC should be taught. Students who reach calculus in high school should be assumed to be good at math, and fully capable of handling calculus at the pace that college math courses will run at.</p>
<p>There is no point in forcing them to take AB over one year and the rest of BC over the next year, as is the policy in apparently many high schools. AB should be offered for those with less interest in “going deep” into math and not intending a math-intensive major in college, but forcing it on the top students in math with the most interest in math is a poor policy.</p>
<p>When I was in high school, AP signified that a top student in high school had competency in college freshman level material. Perhaps it has been diluted to have become, in many cases, standardized honors high school course syllabi.</p>
<p>There is probably some self-selection in that the top students in math are taking BC, while those who are merely good may be mostly in AB (possibly by school policy).</p>
<p>In our high school close to 80% of the kids take at least one AP class. Most of the “top” students, top 40% or so, will take 10 or more AP classes in the 4 years. Kids taking AP classes in 9th and 10th grade almost always take the AP tests. By junior year, they are more selective about which tests they take because by AP test time, most have a pretty good idea which colleges they will be attending/applying to and if it is to their advantage to take the AP tests or not. By senior year, very few kids take AP tests because they know if they are useful or not (college credit vs placement). Most will take AP’s outside of their major but not in their major because the colleges they are attending will use them for placement but not credit more often than not. Also, those top 40% or so are taking actual college classes senior year though the dual enrollment program at the University and are past the AP levels in those.</p>
<p>One example, our kids will be taking what is Spanish V at our school but is Spanish II at the University next year. They will take the AP Spanish test in the spring because the schools they are considering use that for placement (and credit at a couple of them) and they hope to test into Spanish III level in college so they can add that as a double major. One school uses the SAT II Spanish for placement but doesn’t give credit for the AP so if our son gets into that school, he will not take the AP Spanish and take the SAT II instead.</p>
<p>Our school has sent out information to families stating that they do not send data to USNWR because they feel that the methodology is flawed (and it is) and they don’t want to put additional stress on the kids to take the AP tests when most kids have figured out the above examples.</p>
<p>I agree. The top math kids at our school take BC and those kids are usually going into STEM in college. The kids that will be more into humanities will take AB. At conferences midway through junior year the teachers will tell the parents what classes they suggest for the kids next year. It was suggested that our DD go into AB but she decided to take BC instead. A “B” in BC won’t hurt her GPA for the schools she is applying to and if she gets a 3 on the AP test, she earns between 8-12 credits depending on the college AND won’t have to a math class in college which frees up time to take something else. We were just fine with this. She has has all A’s in honor’s pre-calc but it’s a “low” A (94%)—according to her teacher anyway…whatever.</p>
<p>my DD was recommended for BC calc for next year but is thinking of taking (or maybe has decided to take AB) because she is taking so many other AP’s next year and does not want to be struggling. She said that the kids taking BC this year ,“the really smart ones” are “getting B’s” when they all got A’s before…she is currently getting B/B+ in honors pre calc. so she is assuming she’ll end up with a low B and fears a C…what I want to know is if the colleges (LAC’s) care if it is AB or BC…</p>
<p>It’s interesting to hear which are considered the more rigorous APs, but all of them should be considered rigorous for a high school, correct? They are supposed to be college level classes.</p>
<p>And I guess my main question was - why has the meaning of “advanced” changed so much? Why is it that half or more of the kids in any given school are “advanced” enough to handle these courses? Is it really a college level course if half the 15 year olds in a school can take it and do well? </p>
<p>To me, honors and AP are supposed to mean something. If the whole school takes these classes, they don’t mean a damned thing. I can’t believe kids are that much smarter these days then 30 years ago. Honestly, this emphasis on insane hours of studying, plus insane hours put in on EC activities, starting at the age of 14, is warped. I don’t know exactly when things changed, and it still boggles my mind how so many think it’s totally normal to expect this of most high schoolers.</p>
<p>drmom, it sounds to me like your daughter should take AB. Colleges want you to challenge yourself, but they also want you to succeed. When a Vassar ad com was asked whether it was better to get an A in a regular course or a B in an AP course, she smiled wryly and said “It’s better to get an A in an AP course.” The answer in general is that it depends. In your case I think taking AB would be a much better idea, in part because she’d have a better chance of getting an A in the AP course. I think her desire not to be overstressed is good too, there is a lot of extra work dealing with applications senior year. That said, my younger son did pretty well admissions-wise getting a B+ in Calc BC as a senior.</p>
<p>Yes-I understand that AP means they have competency in college level material. However, the fact that a high school student takes longer to develop a competency than an adult does not mean the course they are taking is “less rigorous.” Regardless of how long students take to to develop a college level competency they are still doing it well in advance of college, which makes it MORE rigorous than other HIGH SCHOOL courses. While AP courses cover college material they are still high school courses so the rigor of the courses needs to be compared to high school classes, not college classes.</p>
<p>In one respect, they ARE. OTOH, the most selective colleges recognize that a 5 in AP Enviro is not the same as a 5 in AP Bio. Ditto a 5 in AB Calc vs the same score in BC calc. </p>
<p>I purposely used those two examples because Enviro is not much more than a subset of Bio, and AB is a subset of BC.</p>
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<p>Not quite. The AP “rigor” label is based on the college credit; it has nothing to do with the high school curriculum. Calc BC typically offers a full year of math credit in college, whereas AB only offers one semester of college credit. Bio offers a full year of bio credit, but Enviro offers one semester. AP Stats only offers one semester of college credit because that is its equivalency.</p>
<p>The so-called AP Lites only offer one semester of college credit, and adcoms are fully aware of which ones that do so. A transcript with a bunch of AP Lites will be noticed by highly selective colleges, in comparison to a transcript with the more rigorous AP’s.</p>
<p>Of course, some colleges don’t even provide credit for AP Gov.</p>
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<p>Not at our HS, which doesn’t offer AB as a stand-alone. Yet a third of the senior class takes BC, which includes plenty of lit/hume majors.</p>
<p>Our school tries to discourage kids from taking AP classes. Every spring the counselors hold an assembly and scare the bejeezus out of them, warning about how difficult and time consuming the AP classes are. Still, 40% of the kids take APs, with a 75% pass rate.</p>
<p>Our neighboring school, which is much more affluent and competitive, encourages kids to take as many APs as possible. 80% take APs, but there’s only a 39% pass rate. I know some teachers there, and they say the AP classes are a joke. They have to be watered down because half the kids can’t handle the material… and they aren’t allowed to give failing grades because the parents are so litigious. Pretty crazy!</p>
<p>mathmom- I am tending to agree with your assessment. I think the pressure on the kids to keep up with each other on rigour is a bit much. I heard a similar quip by an Amherst Rep, and at Brown they said “We want to see continued excellence in your rigourous courses”…what does that REALLY mean? I see on Naviance that kids get into these schools with good Great GPA’s, but it is obvious that they all didnt have straigth A’s…so, why can’t the schools just be more transparent and clear. Can’t they just say “we want really smart kids, who love to learn, and do their best”…? I figure, a C is not “your best, or continued excellence” but a B or B+ in a difficult course, with a difficult class schedule should count as “continued excellence”…</p>