I agree that it’d be highly unusual for the undergrad admission not to honor the selection by HPME committee. OTOH, being a interviewee in itself isn’t really special when compared to the RD admits. Interviewees should not treat the invitation as some kind of “likely letter” for the RD. It’s far from that. Undergrad admission probably haven’t even looked at their applications at that point.
You may be correct about most other programs. But at those programs, many BS/MD applicants are usually significantly more qualified than the overall student body and it wouldn’t create any fairness issue to accept them early before the adcom finish reviewing all applications.
@IWannaHelp, correct. At most other universities involved with combined programs, the BA/MD applicant cohort tends to be much more qualified than the regular undergraduates. Don’t know if Brown does the same way that Northwestern does. At Northwestern, I’m sure the gap is a lot more narrow if there even is a gap at all (contrary to what people on this forum may believe, there are tons of students who have absolutely no desire to do a combined Bachelor/MD program, even those who want to do things traditionally).
Request to receive HPME application goes to undergraduate office. 2500 request it, UG office filter them and offer application to 800. UG office don’t get involved in reviewing completed application.
Want to chime in to add to @IWannaHelp’s point about HPME being a separate but parallel process. 3 years ago when we talked to NU admissions with DS14, they talked about, occasionally, there are students accepted by HPME but not NU. In that case, it’s a no go since those students can’t enter the undergraduate portion. They did say it doesn’t happen often.
On a different note… Any thoughts on the bsmd program at Miami being “under review”
It does not show up on the common app either…
@4beardolls and others
Students who receive HPME interviews are requested to notify UG office that they are interested in NU undergraduate admission regardless HPME decision.
I called Miami a couple days ago and asked when the application would be up, and they said that “soon” but never specified when or said if it wouldn’t be a program this year.
@iwannaheIp - thanks for pointing out the numbers. I was looking at another directory that only had admitted student profile until 2014 but went back to check on how many are admitted using CDS when trying to address @Roentgen
I see the scores are going up a lot. However, there is a lot more going on for HPME applicants which are more desirable in the STEM community that are desirable for admissions. The program was created to attract the cream of the crop and if it is now not relevant, they should scrap the program and move on. USC did that and it is ranked lower than NW for both UG and MD.
@texaspg, I think one of the main reasons that Northwestern’s HPME program continues, regardless of relevancy or not in terms of admissions, is that it was one of the first combined Bachelor/MD programs in the United States. It started back in 1961 (so even before Medicare existed) and Bachelor/MD programs then started popping up all across the US after that. This was at a time in which medicine wasn’t getting the cream of the crop students (they were more going towards fields like engineering). So it has stayed on mainly due to its vast history and tradition.
Northwestern is a great university, so their combined program and probably Brown University’s PLME program are sort of like the gold standard for creating Bachelor/MD programs. The AAMC actually has an informal Bachelor/MD consortium group to discuss Bachelor/MD issues. You can click on the PDF button on this link which goes into greater detail on the history and current thinking on Bachelor/MD programs: http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/_layouts/15/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2012&issue=11000&article=00048
@Roentgen thanks for the link.
The original intent included getting the academically talented ones and lock them in and given them a much shorter path of 6 years to get there.
As a parent I think it is one of the best programs that puts zero pressure on the kid. As an outsider, I think they are being too lenient on the admittees and should force them to meet the same standards as the general MD admits so they don’t take life too easy for 3 years.
Btw, I just saw the resume you posted on results thread for the successful HPME candidate. Very interesting one.
@texaspg, Oh I 100% agree. No doubt that these days combined Bachelor/MD programs increase and help the academic profile of the baccalaureate degree granting institution that decides to participate (see all the undergrads in the Drexel combined programs, UMKC, VCU, etc.). That being said, I also do think that for the lower tier/bottom tier medical schools that take a huge segment of their class from the Bachelor/MD pool, it helps them get better med student applicants than they would probably normally get in the more traditional AMCAS process. For the more strong middle-tier, top-tier med schools, they probably end up even at best compared to their traditional counterparts, if you averaged it out.
In the case of Northwestern, their HPME students are winners on both fronts, whether they decide to actually stay in HPME or get out of the program and still continue their undergraduate education at Northwestern. Many of those who are good enough in terms of stats for HPME, would probably have been able to get into the more top tier medical schools in the traditional pathway. Up until very recently, it wasn’t unheard of for those in Brown’s PLME program to work to apply out to get into Harvard’s and Penn’s medical schools, while still being able to retain their spot at Brown. They changed that up a few years ago.
Yup, I thought it was interesting as well, as I would have thought Northwestern HPME would demand as a prerequisite a lot more research involvement, but it seems like that’s not always the case. Just goes to show how non-formulaic things can be even at the top-tier combined Bachelor/MD programs.
I would have placed WashU and Rice/Baylor in that top tier as well. Those would be my D’s dream acceptances as she wasn’t drawn to either Northwestern or Brown. Although I amnot sure there is much advantage with the WashU program given that students must maintain a 3.8 and get a strong score on the MCAT.
@hebegebe, yeah I mentioned Northwestern’s HPME and Brown’s PLME as the “gold standard” because those programs have been around MUCH longer and thus longer track record, with NW’s HPME starting in the '60s which is when Bachelor/MD programs really got started (it was the first one along with Boston University which started out originally as a 6 year program), and Brown being the only Ivy League institution with a Bachelor/MD program, which started in 1985. I don’t know how it is now, but at Brown (now Warren Alpert), a large portion of the medical school class was PLME students, but I believe they’re now trying to get away from that to compete better with higher tier medical schools.
I agree, Wash U’s University Scholars Program in Medicine is wonderful, but with a requirement of 3.8 GPA/36 MCAT on the old scale (or whatever score is 97th percentile on the new exam scale), there’s really no benefit of a real assurance.
Rice/Baylor has shrunk a lot and now down to 5 or 6 seats. Their intended merger and not going through has had a disastrous impact on the number of seats.
do any of these programs not require admitted students to take the MCATs? From what I understand, Brown PMLE does does not require its students to take it.
@DoctorMD, it varies by program, some require you to take the MCAT as just a formality, achieve at least a certain minimum score, or achieve at least the average MCAT score of the MS-1 matriculating class, and there are others that don’t have you take the MCAT at all. Both Brown and Northwestern do not require you to take the MCAT. Rice/Baylor used to also not require the MCAT, but that policy changed very recently. As @texaspg mentioned, they take a lot less in the Rice/Baylor program now, than they used to (12 students back in 2011).
Check out this study:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/ama-wire/post/heres-students-combined-ba-md-program-really-perform
The HPMEs that I know did take their studies seriously without being too worried about the GPAs. They were also able to focus on what they were truly interested in, rather than what would impress the med school admission and what not. I also imagine that without the burden of keeping a high GPA, one would be more willing to take risk and explore the most interesting and challenging classes.
I know several who attended HPME over the years. There are the kind who found passion doing what they want and went above and beyond there were those who took life as easy as possible for 3 years. If everyone explored, there would be a LOT MORE profiles since there should be at least 15 students each year who did lots of things.
Can we get a count of how many BS/MD students each program accepts each year?
I know Rice accepts 6, but I don’t have a good idea about the others.