<p>Speaking of violent schools and closures, I wonder what happens to those kids after Bloomberg shuts them down. If these obnoxious kids continue on and move to other schools, the other schools will close down too then all schools will be closed down! There must be better ways to “fix” up these “broken” kids and help them become motivated citizens. I sound too demanding. Maybe because it’s Bloomberg that’s running the NYC public school system and he isn’t doing anything to really help the issue that we are talking about.</p>
<p>Agreed, lilmelonred - Bloomberg needs to focus on things that are his business, like our failing schools, and stop worrying about how much soda we’re drinking!</p>
<p>not a new yorker, but he needs to stop praising the stop-and-frisk program. it isn’t working. spend some of his vast fortune focusing on responsible policing, rather than surveillance and violation of black and brown male bodies.</p>
<p>Okay the idea of controlling our diet is wrong but I guess he cares about our health?
They said that the Stop and Frisk program is working but it’s controversial and a violation.
If only we live in a utopia society. But that can never happen.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This factor has been cited as one key factor in Murray Bergtraum High School’s decline from just little more than a decade ago when it was considered a highly desirable selective school. Since the early '00s, it seems to have been used by the City’s education department as a “dumping ground” for students who aren’t wanted by more desirable schools or those who didn’t get into their more preferred HS choices. </p>
<p>One of the issues is that all of the discussions on education and blame are mainly focused on the teachers with no discussion allowed about the responsibility of the students and their parents to uphold their part of the educational process. </p>
<p>No…that’s too politically dangerous. </p>
<p>Moreover, I am of the opinion that there’s not much even the best teachers could do with some students who are too violently disruptive or those who are otherwise unmotivated or worse, have an antipathy towards trying to learn/improve themselves. Saw too many students like that in my old NYC neighborhood and my public middle school.</p>
<p>Kids who are violently disruptive should not be mixed with other motivated students at school. Even the High School i’m attending is used as a “dumping ground”. My High School use to be a really good school and have well behaved students. Now, things have changed A LOT. Many students were transferred from schools that were either closing down or on the edge of failing. More than half of the students in my school are just like whatever. We do have couple of hundred of competitive students. </p>
<p>In conclusion, school should only be given to students who want to succeed and go onto college. The violently disruptive kids should be locked in juvenile detention. The unmotivated ones should be placed in the army? At least, they can make the use of themselves. </p>
<p>I don’t get why there are a group of High Schools like Stuy and Brooklyn Tech that would need an exam to get admitted.</p>
<p>
</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Some above-average or better students have academic & social needs even good NYC area high schools cannot meet. This goes especially for students with a need for accelerated pace of academics, need to be around a critical mass of students similarly motivated…especially those who spent K-8 in schools where above-average or better academic achievement tends to be denigrated by classmates and sometimes even teachers/admins*, and where they’re allowed to toss out violently disruptive students unlike neighborhood public HSs. </p></li>
<li><p>To ensure only those with above-average or greater academic skills and the motivation to put in the time and effort to take the test would be admitted. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>The recent news of TJSST having 1/3 of students admitted under changed admissions allowing for more holistic criteria having to be placed under remediation was something none of the Specialized HSs I knew of would have tolerated. One thing about the exam or the past Discovery program providing a second chance for low-income students who scored 60 points or less below the student’s preferred school’s cutoff is that such students are only admitted after having passed through a summer academic program to see if they can take the accelerated academic pace. If they can, they were admitted. If they can’t, they weren’t.</p>
<ul>
<li>Unlike most mainstream schools, being nerdy in the sense of being high academic achievers/love of academics…especially STEM/debate was something to aspire to…not something to be ignored or even denigrated.</li>
</ul>
<p>I remember I scored somewhere around 30 points less than the cut off and also a low income student. I don’t think it was within 60 points 4 years ago. Maybe it was but didn’t take the discovery program ):. I guess I was alright with where I attend and almost graduating this June. </p>
<p>What about students who just are good test takers but not much motivated? They also got admitted. I’m not a big fan of standardized tests. I mean Brooklyn tech and Stuy’s population is majority Asian(50-60%)!</p>
<p>In my daughter and son’s years, there were a surprising number of kids (like my daughter) who had the scores to attend their top choice specialized high school but declined for reasons of fit. My daughter declined admission to Stuyvesant because she didn’t find the people welcoming. She is a stem girl and was very happy with her ultimate choice. My son and more than a few of the top middle school musicians in the city declined LaGuardia because its culture is very specific and non inclusive, as well. This was sort of a kerfluffle last year.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unfortunately, they did away with the Summer Discovery program sometime after 2001 due to conflicts between the City’s Education department and admins of higher cutoff schools like Stuy and BxScience over revising the eligibility criteria. </p>
<p>Seems like the City wanted summer discovery for even higher cutoff schools to be available for students who scored 60 points or less below the cutoff of the lowest cutoff school…not within 60 points of the cutoff of the given chosen school. </p>
<p>If we’re going by scores existent when I was applying…if the city’s revised criteria for Summer Discovery was allowed, Stuy would have been required to admit low income students into the discovery program who scored nearly 200 points below their cutoff. </p>
<p>The admins of higher cutoff schools like Stuy and BxScience felt that would be setting up such kids for failure as that is a substantial gap to cover in just one intensive summer session.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They’re likely to end up voluntarily leaving Stuy after 1-2 years. </p>
<p>Happened to most of the 28% of my incoming freshman class who opted to transfer back to their zoned high schools within our first two years. We started at around 950 admitted students…less than 700 were left by senior year. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This doesn’t surprise me. </p>
<p>Stuy was in many ways a “sink or swim” kind of place. If one needs any handholding or needs a collaborative touchy-feely type of environment, it’s not the right school for him/her.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this mentality is also common among many hardcore STEM nerds/professionals. </p>
<p>This came across loud and clear in the hardcore CS nerd oneupsmanship common in the linux community, especially in the late '90s when they lashed out at any newbie who “can’t figure linux out themselves”. And then they wondered why no one outside their tiny hardcore community was beating a path to their door to adopt linux as their main OS over Microsoft Windows or old/new Mac OS…</p>
<p>Fortunately, there’s been a seachange in attitudes in the linux community sometime in the early-mid '00s so the linux community is much more newbie friendly than they were 15 odd years ago.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I remember those days too. But Linux has done quite well on the server-side because companies can afford staff to do all of the stuff that end users don’t want to or need to. Mac OS X and Windows are a lot easier to use for non-techs.</p>
<p>Cobrat, my daughter doesn’t need handholding, exactly the opposite. She disliked Stuyvesant because of the preponderance of helicopter parents of other kids. It never fails to amaze me how often you completely misread situations in your eagerness to shoot barbs at me.</p>
<p>For those of you who aren’t familiar, when a student is admitted to Stuyvesant, there are events that are intended to draw students and families together, but often the opposite actually occurs and you get small groups of people banding together to seek out group tutoring or other e academic enrichment. Often these groups are geographically or ethnically divided and it is ALL about the parents.</p>
<p>Specialized High Schools exists for motivated students that work well in competitive environments. Many kids (especially during 7th to 10th grade) can be easily influenced by other people. Specialized high schools work to foster the motivation of the students who have it so they do not lose it to the influence of kids that don’t behave properly. It’s as plain and simple as that.</p>
<p>There are many kids that deny their chance of attending one of these schools with a wide range of reasons. Some ppl feel the transportation could be harmful, environment is not friendly, too competitive, etc. You can’t generalize on why someone chooses not to attend.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s a total seachange from the time I attended in the early-mid '90s. Back then, the only parents I knew of who remotely resembled helicopter parents were a few well-off upper-east sider types who annoyed everyone. </p>
<p>Most of the parents we had would not have had the time to do all that considering their work schedules, expectations that even middle-schoolers were to ride subways/buses on their own, and logistics of commuting up to 2+ hours each way. </p>
<p>From what you’ve described, it sounds like the Stuy your D experienced is a very different place than the one I or even younger alums who graduated into the early '00s remembered.</p>
<p>Gatherings to welcome admitted family/students??? Sounds much more like college weekend held by undergrad institutions than what I experienced at Stuy.</p>
<p>Cobrat, I have been trying, both gently at first and less so as time has gone on, to tell you that things have changed markedly in the intervening years. I have had two specialized admissions in the last few years and one last year. Even from the time of my o,dest daughter, who is much younger than you, the entire process was changed. It bears no resemblance to what you remember. parents need every edge even more than in prior decades because costs are so high and the economy has been so bad. Also, I speak from the perspective of a parent and you refer to your experiences as a student. Those are very different things.</p>
<p>Hmm. Does this help Stuy or Brooklyn Tech send many of its students to top universities in the country the fact they are competitive High Schools with competitive students?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Zoosermom,</p>
<p>Shooting barbs at you was the last thing on my mind. I’m sorry for making you think that was my intent. </p>
<p>My comment regarding your D’s experience was mainly to confirm it and to explain it as being part and parcel of the “sink or swim” culture there. </p>
<p>It can be a harsh cutthroat environment…especially for those who aren’t used to it or those whose personalities aren’t compatible*. </p>
<p>On this, I say it with complete sympathy as I myself could have easily been ground down by that environment if I didn’t have such an aggressively rebellious stubborn streak. </p>
<ul>
<li>Am mainly thinking of many college classmates who were educated in more collaborative-oriented environments where being competitive with classmates was discouraged…especially those from hippie/neo-hippie families.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>
</p>
<p>One thing I’ve heard is that with a few exceptions, many colleges…including many elite ones are more willing to dip deeper into our graduating classes than many other high schools. Heard some of this from some elite university Profs and former adcoms themselves. </p>
<p>However, this isn’t always guaranteed. Most of it still depends on the individual student and the application they present to the adcoms.</p>
<p>Cobrat, you are still not reading what I wrote. It is because my daughter is independent, rebellious and determined that she had no interest in attending a school where so many parents were so completely in their and other kids’ business. She is not only able to swim on her own, she is often the lifeguard for others. Do you really think Stuyvesant has escaped the helicopter parent phenomenon? I assure you it hasn’t.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Based on meeting current students and alums while visiting as an alum and from neighbors with kids who attended Stuy or BxScience, I’ve noticed a slight uptick in helicoptering, but still plenty of students whose parents were as mine and my HS classmates: too busy to be helicopter parents even if they were so inclined. </p>
<p>Didn’t get the impression the helicopter phenomenon was THAT bad. </p>
<p>Yes, people got into each others’ business as that was part of the exceeding competitive culture among the students and sometimes teachers. However, back when I was in HS…that was exclusively among the students themselves as most parents then neither had the time, the interest, or were nearby enough to be that involved.</p>
<p>Also…some of us found ways to screw around with the busybody-types…such as my social group’s telling anyone asking about college plans senior year that “We going to California to be beach bums” even though we were actually going to matriculate at colleges ranging from HYPSMC/SWAR to the local publics.</p>
<p>“school should only be given to students who want to succeed and go onto college. The violently disruptive kids should be locked in juvenile detention. The unmotivated ones should be placed in the army? At least, they can make the use of themselves.” </p>
<p>LOLOLOL. this is so hilarious. xD. and i also think that. my mom said that they should be shipped to the army or be replaced with other students who want to try from other countries who don’t have a chance in education. Well this is a good thing because there will be less competition out there. :)</p>