<p>Another area where I've heard parents say they've helped their children is in what they consider the non-academic busywork stuff, for example cutting things out and glueing them on a poster board. If after 2 AM I were to hear rustling downstairs and wake up, and my child were to need help with something like that, I would probably help. But again, this kind of assistance will only relieve some pressure over one assignment and free up the student to do more important work or to sleep. While this might give a small grade boost, I can't imagine it would do enough to get a child into a better college.</p>
<p>I let my daughter stand on her own two feet. It has meant some glitches in the process, a few grades that were not as stellar as I might have liked but in the end she has to make her way in her life and I cannot manipulate her future.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there is a mother I know who has manipulated things constantly in the 6 years or so that I have known her. Threatening to sue a school and district when her kid was caught cheating, calling a school admissions officer to put her kid in the spotlight by hinting possible discrimination against her kid, threatening to sue coaches and sports teams when her kids have behaved badly and have been asked to sit out a practice. It would not surprise me at all to learn in the future that her kids cheated on the college boards, or bribed someone to take the test. Mother dearest has set an exceedingly poor example for her kids and I surmise they will turn out much like mom.</p>
<p>Oh sure, I've helped plenty with 'arts and crafts' projects that were assigned in science, history and spanish class. I would favor a constitutional amendment to outlaw those types of assignments.</p>
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Oh sure, I've helped plenty with 'arts and crafts' projects that were assigned in science, history and spanish class. I would favor a constitutional amendment to outlaw those types of assignments.
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<p>Please make sure that amendment includes a lifetime limit on group projects, too.</p>
<p>I was having a meltdown in 6th or 7th grade over an art assignment (required class) where we had to to a drawing in perspective. I am art-challenged, so my architect/artist stepfather did it for me. He got a C.</p>
<p>Nope, can't think of anything, in all the years of school. The closest I have ever come was letting my son stay home from school on one application deadline, because he wasn't done with his essays -- but I also let his school know that's why he was at home, and he got 0's for class participation, etc. </p>
<p>I'm really wracking my brain on this one, but I can't think of anything. I don't edit essays, I don't help on projects, nothing like that. I sometimes suggest websites when the children have been doing research, because I am a websearch goddess, but that's about it. Why would I want to undermine my children's achievements in life by cheating or helping them cheat?</p>
<p>PS: Oh, as discussed in some other thread once upon a time, I did help son by filling out the personal info (address, parents names, etc) on his college applications. And I do the FAFSAs for all of us (mine, my son's, and next year, daughter's), because the financial situation is complicated. I make them sit there and help me while I do it, though.</p>
<p>Oh, and to Nick who said, "A lot of parents are absolutely obsessed with "college" and will do anything to make sure their kid gets in wherever they want. Just because you don't do something illegal or fraudulent doesn't mean you haven't had a massively unfair influence."</p>
<p>Look, I make a deal with my kids. They treat school as their full time job, giving it their best effort, working to be the best students they can be at whatever is their passion. And I manage the financial situation. Together, we work towards the goal of them ending up in the school of their dreams, with the financial aid to pay for it. I can't give my children money, and I won't cheat or whatever for them, but I will work hard to support them in their path to college. My children joke that I'm like a full time personal college counselor, because I put so much attention to getting information for them. </p>
<p>My daughter and I talked about how the Profile might be a problem for her because of her uncooperative non-custodial dad, but we didn't know if art schools used it. So I went and checked out the websites of all the schools she was considering, and compiled a list for her -- almost all the schools use the FAFSA only. (Yay!) I don't do anything that pretty much any other parent couldn't do -- we don't have an unfair advantage. The advantage we have is something you'd never expect -- my income is one tenth of the income of my daughter's friends and classmates. They're freaking out about how they will afford college, because they won't qualify for financial aid and their home equity lines are closed. We're not freaking out about that, because I've just gone back to school full time, and we're all EFC=0.</p>
<p>Agreed about those group projects. Do teachers even have the slightest clue how hard it is to get four kids together after school to plan out a show and tell project? The kids can't drive, the parents all have jobs to do on weekdays and errands to run on weekends, the kids all have different extracurriculars and church/synagogue/ethnic language school on the weekends. And then, when they get together, what do they have to do? </p>
<p>They have to put together a skit about life in ancient Rome. I bet they didn't have group projects in school during ancient Rome.</p>
<p>Personally, I could have done without the elementary school projects that required exact-o knives and hot-glue guns. Not appropriate for 10 year olds. I knew one parent who put his foot down - went to the principal and demanded that a project be changed. It required building a model on a piece of wood cut to a certain size. The parent said his child was too young to use a power tool to cut wood, and he did not believe in doing his child's work for him. The principal agreed. At the time I was amazed - it had never occurred to me to question the requirements for a teacher's assignment.</p>
<p>I think a lot of this problem - parents doing kids' work, or doing their kids' college apps, or cheating for the kid - comes from an inability if parents to separate themselves from their children. I remember when my son was in 4th grade, I was obsessed with his homework - I thought if he didn't do a great job, it reflected poorly on me as his mother. The older my kids got, the more I saw them as their own people and was able to "let go" and understand that their work was THEIR work, not mine. This despite the fact that their high school homework and grades matter so much more than in elementary school!</p>
<p>^^^# 88 It prepares them for life with slacker lab partners in college!!!</p>
<p>(I also hate group projects)</p>
<p>Oh, amen to group projects. It usually meant my Ds ended up doing the bulk of the work. To this day, they both dread "group" work.</p>
<p>As for helping kids, D1 had to do a "mosaic" in 4th or 5th grade. They had to tear up pieces of colored paper into little pieces, and then glue them back onto construction paper to make a mosaic. Her mistake was that she tore her colored pieces way too small. She got about half way through the project, having spent hours on it, before I took over. I couldn't figure out what she would learn from laboring over this -- except that, as she knew all too well, she didn't have great hand-eye coordination. The teacher never assigned the project again.</p>
<p>Wow, group project hate! Daughter's HS has group projects constantly, in fact, almost all work is done in small groups. Because all students are responsible for the success of all the other students, there's a strong community sense, and group work reinforces that. Basically their whole day is spent in groups, in all classes. There are even group quizzes. My daughter has only had one or two times when she was frustrated with a slower classmate, but usually the group is able to get students like that back on track anyway.</p>
<p>In-class group projects are a different matter and may serve a valuable purpose. It is the after-school, weekend group projects that impose an unreasonable burden on many.</p>
<p>Oh! I'm sorry, I've been away from 'traditional' big box high schools for so long, I forget how yall do things. No, I meant out-of-class projects, too. Our students have time out of class together to do that -- they're usually at school until 4 PM or later, that sort of thing. No problem making time for them, people just show up early or stay late. It's that sort of place.</p>
<p>We had the same experience as your kids Trin- which is probably why I think group things are a good idea.
I like it when assigned functions rotate- & I also appreciate only having one or two main pieces to concentrate on, rather than * everything*.
I saw that with group work, they could go deeper into the material- when it is all on each student- much time is taken up with scaling back so that it is manageable.
In work situations, many projects are also group based- so I think it gives good experience on how to work with people as well as do research.
( D's research paper that she submitted to Reed, was a group project)</p>
<p>Nope-- never did anything dishonest. Might have helped pick up stuff at the store when I got the "I have a project due tomorrow and we dont have any posterboard" cry (hated that last minute stuff) but nothing dishonest. I do recall my older son waiting til the last minute to apply for some scholarship, and he was horribly ill with the flu. Couldnt sit up. Really. But he wanted to do the scholarship application, so he'd dictate what he wanted me to write.. in between naps, and I wrote it out for him (his handwriting was terrrible anyway so maybe this was better). He won $750. He doesnt remember doing the application from his sick bed-- thats how sick he was.</p>
<p>I too hated group projects, but a lot of life in the real world is a group project. Very few people work completely alone. Most volunteer work involves committees. Learning to work with others, split up assignments, hold up your end of the deal, and how to handle it when someone else doesn't follow thru with their piece are all valuable lessons - as valuable as learning whatever subject matter the group project is about.</p>
<p>The way the teacher handles the project and grades it makes all the difference. Does each student get graded for his own contribution, or is it one holistic group grade? If someone is not pulling his own weight, does the teacher have a plan in place to handle it without penalizing the others, so long as they've put in a good faith effort to help and encourage the negligent student? Or does someone have to do twice their share of work while someone else freeloads or else risk a bad grade? I think that unless you're where the buck stops in a company, there are usually safeguards in place that prevent someone from being wrongly held responsible for the negligence of another, or there are provisions which will santion those who do not pull their own weight. For example, if you've been assigned to perform lab tests on a sample or analyze some data, but despite several requests can't get the other party to provide you with the necessary sample or data, you can document that you've done all you can to obtain it, such as by copying your boss on all communication. If you still don't get what you need to do your part in the project, you can notify your boss, who can then contact the other party or that party's boss, or whatever the procedure might be, and you're off the hook. The problem is when teachers tell kids they have no say in who they work with (so they can't choose to work with other good students) and are responsible for policing the members of their group and ensuring that the work gets done, without giving them the power to sanction that lazy kid somehow, such as by not listing his name on the project or whatever.</p>
<p>I, too, see the value of group projects. They foster many fine qualities that we want our children to have. Once in college, depending on your child's major, (ie. business) there are mostly group projects. I know all 3 of my kids are/were business majors and once they reached their upper level class there are group projects galore (of course of a different sort.) </p>
<p>It seems to be different in HS vs college. I, too, had the kids who wound up doing all of the work. I don't know if they didn't trust the other kids to do the work or they just said they'd do it. I know my D had all As in on tests in one college class, but her group came in last for a project. She didn't get an A in the class and she was MAD! The prof actually emailed her to explain her grade to her. Good life lesson!!!</p>
<p>So lets take the group project logic one step further. Maybe colleges should admit applicants by groups too. Once you send in your application, let them randomly create groups of four, ask the four of you to work together on a group essay, and then admit or reject you all as a group. That would be fair too, wouldn't it? After all, when you work for a company, you do sometimes pay the price for your colleagues' incompetence.</p>
<p>Edit: Finally this thread is getting to be controversial!</p>