I am a lawyer and I think law is a great and noble profession. But it is VERY HARD for new law school graduates to get work that pays enough for them to pay their day-to-day bills (much less the loans that many of them have taken out for law school). As alluded to above, the law school one attends has a big effect on job placement post-law school; there’s a huge drop-off from the average salaries of top 15 or top 20 law school grads to the average salaries of grads from all other law schools in the United States. Now, if you can pay for your son’s law school, that will give him some freedom to take one of those jobs in the $30,000 to $60,000 range, if he can get one.
Is there more grade deflation at Harvey Mudd than Caltech? It seems unlikely to me.*
I agree that Tufts is worth a look. My son was roommates freshman year with an engineering student who didn’t want to be one. I think he did eventually persuade his parent to let him do something else. It’s a very small engineering school - which could be a good or bad thing. The one kid I knew well who went there loved it. She working for a big pharmaceutical company now.
*edited to add, well they seem to think so: http://www.claremontportside.com/print-edition/2014-2015/october-2014/grade-inflation-reconsidered/
PokeyJoe wrote:
I recommend that your son not major in chemical engineering. An engineering BS is a focused professional program intended to prepare one for entry-level employment as an engineer. Since he does not want to work as an engineer, he would be better served by a chemistry major or any other arts and science major that strongly interests him. He can find plenty of challenge, explore several subjects, and still be prepared for law school or med school.
It sounds to me as if he would love most of the Ivies: can major in a STEM field while still taking rigorous humanities courses, students with broad intellectual interests appreciated, lots of energetic, intelligent highly-verbal classmates many of whom are similarly driven. He’d be highly unlikely to be bored. They are such an obvious choice one hesitates to mention them to most people, but he sounds like the kind of kid who would naturally fit in, especially at Yale and Dartmouth, perhaps.
It doesn’t sound to me as if your S would really feel fully engaged at a tech/engineering school, which is why Rice/Stanford/Ivies/Northwestern et al would fit the bill. Of course, any number of the great midwestern flagships, such as U Minn and U Mich, would give him a fine education, and presumably he would be in the honors college.
My father went to college intending to be pre-med, but switched to chemical engineering because he found that the pre-med courses weren’t challenging enough, LOL. He would no doubt have been a superb surgeon, but he was also a natural engineer.
What state are you from? Are you looking for safeties and matches? Reaches are easy to recommend. 
Any of the top 25 universities and LACs would work. If he wants intellectual challenge, double majoring in Chemistry and Philosophy should satisfy him plenty, and prepare him well for either med school or law school.
The difficulty will be in finding matches (meaning selectivity 30%+) and safeties (40%+, probably your flagship’s honors college and another such option).
@PokeyJoe, Respectfully your S does NOT know what he wants. Medicine or law? chemical engineering? If it’s law it’s IP or trial law?
I know you may not like someone saying so…but you are going about this the wrong way. Forget about law or medical school. Think about COLLEGE. If you couldn’t afford it, then you’d have to consider the cost of UG if he was likely to need money for law or med school. But since you don’t have to take cost into account, focus on college and picking one that’s the right “fit.” “Fit” is not going to be determined by the quality of prelaw advising and/or med school placement. I’d agree that the quality of those should be taken into account if you were comparing SUNY Cobleskill and CalTech, but it’s unlikely that you’ll be looking at that sort of choice. (Cobleskill is a fine school; it’s just not a great place to be premed or prelaw).And excuse me again for being blunt, but unless he’s a top 5 finisher in the chemistry Olympiad, the idea that a pure chemistry major won’t be challenging enough is probably wildly inaccurate.
So, put on the thinking cap. What does he want in COLLEGE? If he knows he’s unlikely to be able to decide his future career path for the first 2 years, then, as others have said, he should look at college where engineering is not a separate school. Does he want to be “King of the Hill?” If he does, then he might want to think long and hard about going to a college like CalTech. Does he want a college where a lot of social life revolves around spectator sports? How does he feel about Greek life? Would he feel comfortable going to college in the inner city…or not? Does weather matter? Are there any ECs he’d like to continue? Which colleges offer them? How much time do those ECs demand? What are the barriers to participation?
How does he like his education “delivered,” to use Greene’s phrase? Would he be turned off by sitting in a lecture hall with 100+ students taking organic chemistry? Does he like “hands on” learning? A co-op oriented school might be worth checking out.
Since this is your 4th son, I’m sure you know the drill. It really doesn’t change because your S thinks he MIGHT want to go to med or law school.
I agree with those who say build your list from the bottom up. Most of the colleges at the tip-top of the ranking don’t care that much about expressed interest. Those a bit lower do. So, spend more time visiting them.
You don’t say where you live, but if you live in the US, spend some time visiting local colleges. Check out a small LAC, a larger LAC, a research university, a suburban college, inner city college, etc. to give yourselves a better idea of what he’s looking for.
@Consolation He can look at the Ivy League schools but, they are a low percentage shot for anyone. I guess we need match suggestions the most. We are Texas residents. With his grades and scores UT is a guarantee. He’d also be a strong fit for any major there, regardless of selectivity. We have a senior there now. That son, DS1, is double majoring in Electrical and Computer Engineering and CS. He says that UT engineering is full of Ivy-qualified level students. UT will be DS4s safety.
@Jonri Feel free to share your opinion. No offense taken. I asked for advice.
From our view, he has already eliminated so many career options that he feels very focused to us. (For example: He is also an award winning writer whose papers are frequently held up as the example. He leads a team for writing competitions. There is no way he would consider majoring in English.)
His primary desire is an academic community of striving, intelligent peers. Right now, as a junior, everything else is secondary.
This is the reason we are working to schedule college visits. He needs an opportunity to see what rural/urban really means and so on. Getting suggestions for visits is my goal for posting this thread. Thanks!
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great pre-professional counseling and med/law school placement.
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Many schools have very good pre-professional counseling. However, undergrads don’t “place” students into med or law school. The student has to have the stats and apply thru the regular app process.
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If your kid wants to target med school, then construct your plan based on that. You can always pursue the law track.
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This is true. The other way around won’t work.
ChemE as a premed is a rough gig. It’s one of the hardest majors out there. Med schools do NOT give you a pass for GPA just because you had a “harder” major. It’s not unusual for strong students to find that they get their “first B” (or C!!) as an eng’g student. It’s not unusual for them to end up with a few Bs or a few Cs.
My son is in med school and he was a ChemE major with Bio, Chem and Math minors, so I’m not saying that it can’t be done. It’s just a hard row to hoe. It’s hard for a ChemE premed major to have an active social life. I’m not saying that you have to live like a monk, but I know that my son’s GF was often annoyed when son just wasn’t often available for dates, etc.
My son chose ChemE as his major so that he’d have a Plan B in case he decided against med school. Your son needs a Plan B if he decides against med or law school. What would he do with a Chemistry degree? Grad school for research?
I must say I’m impressed that with four sons you’re willing to be full pay for both undergrad and med school. You’re talking about $500k+ for just ONE son. Wow. I didn’t know Bill and Melinda had 4 sons. 
Based on his thirst for intellectual challenges, he should look into Reed, Swarthmore, and William&Mary.
I liked what jonri had to say about college and career. The one thing I would like to add is that son needs to know that law is a business. It’s not all great thoughts and protecting peoples’ rights. In fact, most of it isn’t. It’s a business. He should think carefully about what he thinks being a lawyer is and what kind of lawyer he might want to be before he settles on law school as a goal. And, as others have noted, you can major in anything and go to law school. I went pre-med [darn that organic chemistry] to math [darn those finite dimensional vector spaces] to psych & then law school. One of my recent clerks was a classics major from Reed (my own alma mater) who started up a highly-rated restaurant in NYC before going to law school. Anything is possible.
UT is a great safety. I think Baylor has better med school advising, though.
Speaking of Texas schools, there is a BA/MD program at UTSA.
So tell us more about him than what he thinks he wants to study. Does he like the outdoors? Play a sport? Music? Is he religious? Does he want to experience life outside the great state of Texas?
He sounds like a great kid who could do well in a lot of different environments.
@mathmom, Mudd has had a total of 8 students in the history of the school graduate with a 4.0. Average GPA for grads is around a 3.3, I think. Plenty of students with close to 4.0s in high school and stratospheric SAT scores end up with a 3.0 or less. And this is even with first semester as pass-fail. Most STEM grad programs know the quality of a Mudd education, and they have excellent grad school placement, but med schools are unforgiving on this point.
I have no idea what the stats are at Caltech – and it may also be a less than stellar pre-med option if they have the same kind of stats.
@mom2collegekids where did your son go for undergrad?
And I sympathize with his GF. I spent many unwanted nights in the library with my now husband, waiting for him to finish studying. My grades did go up though!
@lizardly Here are a few other details. He doesn’t play team sports anymore but, loves pick up games of flag football or whatever’s going on. He loves to camp, hunt, and hike. He’s a Christian and has friends of all backgrounds. He’s very well traveled and still never leaves the house without his Kindle. Last year, he decided he wanted a non-school hobby so, he taught himself to play guitar.
He has no qualms about leaving Texas. We’ve traveled all over the U.S.
“@mom2collegekids where did your son go for undergrad?”
Okay, proof PokeyJoe is a newbee.
Haha! I’ll own the newbie title. My post total is a tiny fraction of yours @twoinanddone !
DS4 just came back from the college fair. He “found” Columbia and will add that one to his list. His favorite rep though was from University of Pennsylvania. “I don’t know if they’re the best school for me but, their rep did the best job of making it sound like it is.”
One big surprise for me came in the form of a Judge Advocate brochure from the Marine Corp. I’m not sure how I feel about that…
If your son studies science, math or any of the liberal arts at an academically rigorous college he will be challenged, both in the classroom and outside of it in informal interaction with his classmates.
He should take a look at Williams – Excellent sciences and overall academics; multi-talented, energetic and intellectually lively student body; strong track record for placement at top graduate and professional schools (with personalized advising); widespread involvement in outdoorsy activities and probably more Eagle Scouts per square mile than anywhere on the planet.
@momrath Thanks for the suggestion! I haven’t heard much about Williams but, it sounds like a good fit.
@ClarinetDad16 Thanks for the article. Our student will graduate debt free so, no worries there. As for the job market, our oldest college student has been to a couple of recruiting sessions on his campus to encourage engineers to go into IP or patent law. In those areas, there is an apparent shortage. We know a couple of lawyers who confirm this. In any case, the job market isn’t a deterrent to DS4 at this point.
My nephew was an Eagle Scout who went to Williams and on to med school. :). Agree, it might be a good fit.
I’d say his biggest obstacle to the law or med school plan is the chemical engineering degree.
Unless you truly imagine he’s going to ace most of those classes.
But if he wants to be a chemical engineer, then by all means go for it! Best of luck to him, whatever he decides.