The time has come to get our travel plans in order for DS4. He is torn between law and medicine and wants to major in Chemical Engineering.
We would love suggestions for schools with great pre-professional counseling and med/law school placement.
DS is at the top of his unranked class, though not valedictorian.
Took SAT sophomore year and received a 1410 (CR and M) but, several practice ACTs as a junior show composites at 34 and 35 consistently. He’ll be focusing on prep for that test from here on out.
He is an Eagle Scout, with multiple awards and leadership positions. He has also significantly impacted the way his school teaches the AP curriculum and is very involved in his ECs.
Basically, a very self-driven over achiever who thrives under pressure and hates to be bored.
His GC suggested he apply for the Rice Medical Scholars program but, when he checked, they only took 7 students for the year he saw. Talk about a long shot!
Any suggestions would help. You guys have suggested schools in the past that we had never heard of and we’d like him to start with a broad list.
He’ll go anywhere in the US and we’ll be able to pay the full costs of undergrad and med/law. Thanks for the help!
He will have tons of options. Does he want a big university (Michigan, Berkeley type)? Any interest in LACs? (Hard to find ChemE there, though). Is he interested in STEM schools (Harvey Mudd or Caltech)? Do you have any interest in keeping costs down to save for med or law school? If he is sure about ChemE, U of MN is highly ranked.
The law piece of your son’s possible plans would have zero influence on undergrad college choice.
Pre-law and law school counseling is not relevant for law school admissions. If your kid has a 3.9 undergrad GPA and a high LSAT score, he’ll get into a top law school. Any college will work for that.
Harvard sends a lot of kids to top law schools mainly because Harvard undergrads tend to be great standardized test takers. But great test takers from the University of Whatever State also get admitted.
I would relook at a Chem E undergrad if he wants to go into law or med school. UG grades really matter and engineering is tough. My 2 cents. I agree with looking at schools where he would stand out.
Personally, we think he will end up at a med/large school just for the variety of opportunities and people. He hasn’t come to that conclusion yet, though. A smaller school visit might clarify that for him.
He mentioned Caltech from an Internet search but, I am not sure why it caught his attention. It might have been on a list for engineering.
He is not a stereotypical engineering-type student in that he is very outgoing and loves to have long discussions on any non PC topic you can think of. He has a “life of the party” personality alongside an uncommon maturity. I’m not sure he would find many kids like himself at a traditional STEM school but, we don’t know that without more information. He came to the chemical engineering decision because he thought Chemistry wouldn’t be enough of a challenge. I have no idea if that is true or not.
Cost isn’t a factor here, the fit is our biggest concern. We are grateful to be in the position to let him go wherever he chooses.
Cross posted with you guys, sorry.
Personally, if he chooses law, we’d like to see him at a school that has good advising for applications and testing advice.
@ErinsDad I hear you on the GPA issue. We told him the same thing.
With his credentials, he’s likely to attend a school that has perfectly fine counseling for law school applications. I don’t think that really needs to factor into your considerations much at all.
One thought: you might want to look at schools where you can get in–and out of–an engineering major without a big issue, such as changing from one school to another. It sounds like your son isn’t interesting in being a chemical engineer, so I would say the odds are pretty strong that he’ll end up wanting to major in something else.
Agree… I can’t really see someone majoring in ChemE if they don’t want to work in that field. Mudd probably isn’t the place for him if he wants to go to med school, as grade deflation is severe there.
@intparent @Hunt
He definitely does not want to practice engineering. That is probably the only thing he is certain of in our conversations.
Would either of you be able to suggest another challenging major that would allow law and/or medicine? I forgot to add that he’s unsure if he wants intellectual property or trial law. He is probably the top math and science guy in his high school.
He’s determined to ride the fence as long as possible.
I like the idea of going somewhere he will stand out. I’ll pass that idea along with the school suggestions so far.
“Personally, if he chooses law, we’d like to see him at a school that has good advising for applications and testing advice.”
Like I said above, you don’t need this.
Law school admissions are not like med school admissions. Any kid from any college with any A to Z major can get into any law school with no help from a pre-law advisor. I know – that’s exactly what I did. You don’t need any advice other than “get a high LSAT score.”
While you don’t need help on getting into law school, your kid should get some advice on whether to go to law school. But that advice is much better found talking to law grads rather than pre-law advisors at the college.
Law schools do make some accomodations on the GPA side. A 3.5 from CalTech in chemical engineering is going to impress more than a 4.0 in basket weaving from Duh State.
Physics… But if he is serious about med school, he needs to think hard about this. I don’t care how smart he is, if he goes to a tough college and wants to go to med school, he MUST have a good GPA. Med schools are unforgiving on this element. Picking the hardest major just to challenge himself probably isn’t the smartest strategy, and he will be competing for admission against tons of students who did have a smart strategy and were gunning for the best credentials for med school from day 1 of undergrad.
How about Johns Hopkins? He wouldn’t be bored, that is for sure.
Any major will allow you to be admitted into law school. It does not matter.
Lots of IP lawyers do not have STEM backgrounds and most IP lawyers spend their time being litigators. So again, any major can do for this. Plenty of highly successful IP litigators with english or history degrees. Just get yourself admitted into a top 14 law school if at all possible (meaning high GPA; high SAT).
A minority of IP lawyers are actual technical types – engineers of various types, biology, computer science, etc. For these folks, you can do well based a little bit more on the strength of your STEM skills and experience and a little less on how fancy your law school and law school transcript are.
If your kid wants to target med school, then construct your plan based on that. You can always pursue the law track.
The only reason an undergrad major matters for law school is if the person wants to be a patent lawyer, then it really helps to have a science or engineering background. It is also helpful to take a lot of writing courses. Most people don’t really specialize in law school, although those who want a trial career tend to take courses or internships or jobs in trial practice, moot court, etc., and those interested in another area may take one or two extra classes in those areas (tax, environmental law, securities, property). Otherwise not much specialization.
I’d have him explore Cornell as an option. College of Industrial and Labor Relations has a lot of grads go to law school & he can take classes at the other colleges within Cornell.
@northwesty Thanks for the advising heads up. DS4 is a top competitor in his public speaking EC. He has received advice over time from practicing judges who were adamant that he go to law school. That’s where his confidence comes from in pursuing that path.
@intparent
I am going to show your post to DS4 today. Thank you!
I also heard just now that he has two big college fairs tonight and tomorrow and he met three reps at school today, so, bring on any other suggestions.
I’m not quite sure why he wants to do chemical engineering if he wants to go to Med School - that said it’s generally better to start off in engineering and drop out of it, if it doesn’t seem like the right fit. My nephew majored in in Bioengineering and in Biochemistry and Cell Biology from Rice - he took the MCATs thinking he might like to do an MD/Phd program, but in the end decided that his heart really was in research. Rice was a fabulous place for him. He loved the residential colleges, was able to do research from day one (actually started at Freshman Orientation!) and got into every PhD program he applied to. He’s at MIT now. You don’t have to be in that program with only seven students - especially if he’s not sure about med school at this point
As for Caltech - everyone says it’s like drinking from a firehose. Not for everyone! It’s one of those places I think you have to visit to see if it is right for you. It’s very tiny and more than a little quirky. Both my kids loved the vibe - oldest didn’t get in despite stellar scores and grade, youngest is actually not really a STEM guy - just likes hanging out with them. If you look at Caltech - look at Harvey Mudd too. It’s quite similar, but the five college consortium provides some real advantages. DH got his PhD at Caltech and I have a real fondness for the LA area and Pasadena in particular.
All that said, med school is expensive - and law school isn’t much better - you might want to look at some less expensive options.
As mentioned above, Mudd is not the place for pre-meds due to severe grade deflation.
To me it sounds like he has no idea what he wants to do. Just because he is a strong public speaker does not mean he has the passion for the law that he will want to have to succeed in that profession. Just because he is good at STEM subjects does not mean he should major in engineering. Just because he is good at STEM and has parents who can pay for med school does not mean he should be a doctor. You say he likes Chemistry – my guess is that he would find plenty of challenge in that major, and could easily prep for med or law school at the same time. Why doesn’t he just major in what he likes?
I would suggest looking at some schools where the engineering school is a little less separate than at a lot of the tech schools or big universities with discrete engineering schools or all engineer populations. Tufts and Brown both have pretty mixed and porous engineering schools. Also both are strong in pre-med advising and heavy in students who like to debate. I am sure there are other - but I have liberal arts DDs so I am not up on the latest.
In general look for schools where engineering majors are allowed to take electives with non-engineers. There are other majors that might interest a STEM kid with broader interests. Biomedical engineering is popular for pre-meds, also cognitive science (psych and bio mixed together), statistics and applied math are also good candidates.
If your son does choose Caltech, and no reason not to,apply EA, he won’t have to pick a major for a while. Most freshmen follow the Core sequence. They have several programs that enable pre meds, e.g. A 6 week program at Huntington hospital. After Katrina, they flew interested students to NO to be of help.
The House system allows all types to students to blossom. They elect a Social Chair to coordinate activities, as well as a House President etc.
@intparent
I showed him your earlier post. He sees the logic in a major that is more likely to allow him a higher GPA. He started with Chem E because he thought it was the best fit for what he wants. He’s now considering just majoring in Chemistry.
You’ll have to trust me on the passion for the law component.
Last summer, he also completed the most thorough of three Medicine related camps. This one was at Northwestern. He also met with a prominent surgeon later in the summer who practices at a major research hospital in order to investigate the fit of medicine and lifestyle. He received high praise from his instructors at the camp. The surgeon, though a stranger, asked if he could keep in touch with DS4 as he makes his choice.
He does know what he wants. He is investigating law vs. medicine on his own. It’s impossible to drive this kid any harder than he drives himself. We joke that it’s a good thing he’s so on top of stuff with three older siblings, it’s hard for me to keep up.