One of the biggest myths on CC - UC to UC transfers have no chance

Transfer Students UC Transfers
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<p>@DunninLA: I completely agree with you. Don’t get me wrong, I am thankful that I have this option and opportunity to be transferring from a CCC to a UC, but it is so much easier from community college. </p>

<p>This can be proven through various analyses of the statistics. For starters, let’s examine Berkeley. About 22% of freshman are admitted (if I remember correctly) from high school. For transfers, the average is ~33%. </p>

<p>Additionally, SAT scores are required for freshman. This is not the case for transfers. If it were, I’m sure that the average SAT for transfers would be substantially lower than the average SAT for freshman (~2050). This is just my opinion though, not empirically based in any way. </p>

<p>I’ll interject with my own example: I had a 1.0 in high school. Now I have a 3.74 in CC. I never took the SAT or one AP class. In fact, I dropped out of high school. The competition, social factors, and a lack of maturity on my part, contributed to this. High school students seriously gunning for a school like UCB must place a legitimate emphasis on their GPA, SAT’s, EC’s, sports, ASB, student gov, leadership etc for 4 years. Transfers only need 2 years (though more is often needed to garner 60 units) and GPA around 3.55 to have a solid shot at all the UC’s.</p>

<p>Also, TAG’s provide guaranteed admittance to some of the best schools in California…and in the nation for that matter. With a 3.0, any student can get into UCSD, for example, as long as they have the prereqs done for the TAG. Freshman don’t have this option.</p>

<p>Btw I’m sure you know all of this, I’m just trying to identify some of the perks of “easier admission” for transfers in one place.</p>

<p>For transfers there are major or individual college stats that are not factored in during the freshman admissions process. For example, at UCB, the average GPA for a phil major admitted is around a 3.65. However, it has around a 44% acceptance rate!! Thus, more than 2/5 get in. One could apply to an easy major as a transfer as an advantage to get into UCB. Freshman don’t have this advantage.</p>

<p>Comparing classes is very subjective, so I’ll do my best to state that I am generalizing here. In high school it’s pretty much necessary to take a “rigorous class schedule” to get into the top UC’s. By this, I mean that AP classes are normally needed. At CC, yeah, there are Honors classes, but they’re not normally necessary…unless you’re part of TAP…in which case you have ~89% acceptance rate for UCLA. Freshman in their AP Honors Programs definitely don’t have an 89% acceptance rate…I’d be surprised if they had half of that.</p>

<p>Generally CC’s have easier classes than in high school. Of course, there are exceptions, but in my experience, and if anyone wants to please back me up here, CC classes are easier. You pick your own schedule. You pick your own classes (literally whatever you want). There are no rules as to when you have to take English or Math as long as you do those classes b4 u transfer. At CCC, you also don’t spend as much time in school. Generally, to be a full-time student, you need 12 units per semester. By this, the average student probably takes about 4 classes (I’m going by semester system). In high school, you’re going to normally take between 5-8 classes per semester. These AP’s (in my experience classes in general) are more often than not, easier at CCC’s than in high school. The CCC administration knows that students need to transfer, and also know that many students are low income and cannot afford a 4-year university education. Thus, classes have to be easy enough to pass most students (a high percentage) onto a university or other 4-year college. </p>

<p>There are many ways to quantifiably analyze the statistics. One could use a comparative analysis, ANOVA, standard deviations on a normal distribution comparing hs and CCC transfer stats, etc. I have to go right now, but I’ll try to calculate some of these things (objectively/quantifiably) tonight or within the next couple days. </p>

<p>To conclude, I’ll just reiterate that yes, it is much easier for transfers in general. People will contend that high school is much easier, or that they had a CCC teacher that was 10x harder than any hs teacher, but these are outliers. I’m going to try to piece this together tonight and get back to you. Peace man.</p>

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<p>"This can be proven through various analyses of the statistics. For starters, let’s examine Berkeley. About 22% of freshman are admitted (if I remember correctly) from high school. For transfers, the average is ~33%. "</p>

<p>This fact is very deceiving in the sense that to become eligible to transfer less than 10% of every community college student ever make it out of there. Take for example probably the best C.C in califorina De anza college</p>

<p>[University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_report.aspx?atpCode=4286&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege]University”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_report.aspx?atpCode=4286&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege)</p>

<p>41,128 Headcount
3,899 transfer ready students</p>

<p>less than 10% is transfer ready per year how many drop out or never come back? The lesser community college has around a 4% transfer ready student total.</p>

<p>than take for example</p>

<p>[University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_report.aspx?atpCode=4296&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege]University”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_report.aspx?atpCode=4296&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege)</p>

<p>East Los Angeles college</p>

<p>49,680 Headcount
2,248 transfer ready students</p>

<p>Community college is a trap which if you have no plan going in will take much longer than the 2 year it takes a average U.C student to do his G.E courses. </p>

<p>Add in budget cuts, an unmotivated class base around them, very poor counseling and lowered class offering it makes it hard to succeed without being focused .</p>

<p>@emil your case is one I’ve heard about for every you there a hundreds that fail in between so you viewing it as easy is a matter of perspective. </p>

<p>C.C also has a lot of self righteous professor coming straight out of grad school who well makes the test incredibly hard. “If i had to do it they have to as well”</p>

<p>I’ve been in classes where i had the only A or one of the few A’s out of the 40 student. I put in more effect and having not to work provides me that benefit. If you are working and struggling to put time in to study then those classes are almost impossible to get an A in.</p>

<p>Don’t counter with screen your teachers due to the fact that i would say maybe only 10% of people even know how to do that .</p>

<p>"Easier due to specific majors. " - </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is look at which majors are hard to get into. Econ , biology, engineering,business. Why is that the case? because they make money. If you go to a U.C just to go to a U.C to graduate with a piece of paper that is close to useless than you are wasting your time. The pipe dream to get a teaching position in a humanities subject is almost impossible. Humanities prepare you for NOTHING that is the case .</p>

<p>Add in the fact that employers value GPA more than ever if you back door your way with TAG and don’t enjoy your subject you’ll struggle that why many people also consider universities other than Cal/UCLA even if they got in. if you can’t obtain a competitive GPA 3.2+ then don’t go it does you no good to graduate with a 2.8 and face that 3.0 cutoff that some employers have.</p>

<p>I will say it’s a testament that you make it out of C.C at all it’s difficult.</p>

<p>Freshmen that are admitted are ready for the challenges of that university in theory. It’s hard to say if C.C does the same to prepare you. It all depends on the individual and their study habits. If you study hard in C.C now you will do the same in the U.C , but if your one of those that goes to class don’t study and still get A’s and B’s then you will struggles at the U.C system. </p>

<p>To conclude i would argue it’s as hard if not harder for transfer to get into U.C’s than as freshmen. Obviously if you were qualifies coming out of high school and saving a few buck going to C.C it would be easy or if you suddenly found motivation it’s easy but for most in C.C it’s not quite that simple.</p>

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<p>@peterr86: “Obviously if you were qualifies coming out of high school and saving a few buck going to C.C it would be easy or if you suddenly found motivation it’s easy but for most in C.C it’s not quite that simple.” </p>

<p>I never said it was “easy” for most in community colleges. You completely took my words out of context. Obviously many students work a job or two, have familial obligations, or maintain various other responsibilities that could hinder one’s academic success.</p>

<p>All that being said, yes, it is relative to the student and their study habits/other priorities, however, my claim was not that it’s easy for students to transfer in general. My claim was that it is easier than in high school. You neglected to acknowledge the sole purpose of my claim, and instead, extrapolated it to the broader “community college success”. The numbers that you provided were completely unrelated to my claim. Sure, 10% are transfer ready, however take a look at this stat from your own link:</p>

<p>[University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_uc_enrollment_report.aspx?atpCode=4286&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege]University”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_uc_enrollment_report.aspx?atpCode=4286&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege)</p>

<p>Oh yes, 915/1063 are accepted at a UC from De Anza College. That’s an 86% acceptance rate from last year from those who applied. Do freshman have an 86% acceptance rate to the UC’s in general? Definitely not.</p>

<p>Let’s agree that UC Davis is a great school, right? It is top 50 in universities according to USNWR, so we’ll say for all intensive purposes that it is. Well, according again to ur link, enrollees from De Anza to UC Davis had an average of a 3.2 GPA. I’m not saying they don’t deserve to get in, far from that. I’m just saying that from high school, the average GPA is 4.0 (weighted) to UC Davis. Unweighted it’s around 3.6. Is that .4 difference negligible? Definitely not. Thus, one could argue that it is “easier” to get in by Grade Point Average from a community college. Can’t argue with the numbers, man.</p>

<p>You’ll probably think that I’m neglecting the other 40,000 students at De Anza. Actually, I’m not. Yes, it does often take many years to transfer. That’s part of the reason why only 10% are transfer ready from De Anza. Also, many thousands of students are only applying to CSU’s and private colleges. That 10% is indicative of a small sub-culture of students at De Anza that: Applied to a UC, are eligible, and does not include those students that exclusively applied to other schools outside the UC system. Indeed, 10% are ready to transfer to a UC out of the TOTAL population, but let’s say that it takes the average student 3-3.5 years to transfer (I’d say that’s about accurate for those planning on transferring). In that case, only 1/3 or around 30-33% should be able to apply to a UC each year. According to your stat, 10% are “ready to transfer to a UC” out of 40,000. That’s completely misleading. People apply to other colleges as well.</p>

<p>Let’s not forget those who just want an AA. Many people don’t plan on transferring. We can’t just assume everyone wants to transfer that goes to community college. Some are just part of the community college fire program or beauty program or any other program. Many other students already have college degrees, and are going back to learn more or receive certifications for things like counseling, teaching, etc. Not everybody is trying to transfer, and making that assumption defies your statistic i.e. 10% are ready to transfer.</p>

<p>Like I said, I’m not saying it’s easy to transfer. It may be easy to one, and very difficult for another (esp someone who speaks English as a second language). All I’m saying is it is easier from community college. In high school, you have (barring a GED) to work for 4 years, take the SAT, maintain ~4.0 GPA for schools like Davis (which I would say is the median UC in terms of difficulty to get into), have a list of EC’s, get teacher recommendations (which you don’t need at CCC), etc. Of course, there are students with 1400 SAT scores and 3.0 GPA’s that get into Davis. However, I’m going by the means, and those scores are outliers. </p>

<p>I agree with you, it is hard to transfer out of a CCC. However, I’ll stick with my original claim: It’s easier from CCC than straight out of high school.</p>

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<p>High school GPA is inflated at 80% of the high schools in California. Plus if you go to a disadvantaged one and show any semblance of caring you’ll get ELC which is a 90% acceptance rate into Davis/Irvine/SD and 60%+ acceptance for Cal/LA.</p>

<p>Maybe high school was different when i went to school but i was able to pull off a 3.8 unweighted/4.3 weighted gpa without much trouble going to a top 25 public high school and a 1540 SAT in the old scoring system (yes i’m old) ,but due to financial constraints i wasn’t able to go to UCLA. </p>

<p>I went to C.C and i have to say the atmosphere is completely different. It was a culture shock to see. The people i met and the stories i hear from them really opened my eyes to the struggles . I do agree not everyone wants to transfer, but lets do the math here real quick on those numbers. I’m actually kinda glad i got to experience what i did , and i’m getting off topic</p>

<p>So 40,000 students from Deanza more or less. let say 70% wants to transfer or go to a CSU which also means “transfer eligible” CSU/UC have similar requirements.</p>

<p>so assuming it takes 3 years to get your classes 40,000/3 is about 13000 * 70% = 9100 and 4000 are eligible so take that estimate your’re looking at less than a 50% clip of the entire student population that want to transfer. </p>

<p>Let face it at other C.C just check any random one. The stat is much more lower <a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_uc_enrollment_report.aspx?atpCode=4391&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege[/url]”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu/reports/schoolreports/school_uc_enrollment_report.aspx?atpCode=4391&Year=2008-09&Type=communitycollege&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Just one i pulled up less than 200 people made it into a U.C from a student population of 30,000</p>

<p>How many people from your High School made it to a top 50 school? i would guess more than 50% of the graduating class.</p>

<p>Keep in mind De anza is one of the best C.C in the state .</p>

<p>Also the state 915/1063 are accepted those include Riverside and Merced. I would say over 80% of my high school was accepted into those 2 schools at least.</p>

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<p>"The fact of the matter is look at which majors are hard to get into. Econ , biology, engineering,business. Why is that the case? because they make money. If you go to a U.C just to go to a U.C to graduate with a piece of paper that is close to useless than you are wasting your time. The pipe dream to get a teaching position in a humanities subject is almost impossible. Humanities prepare you for NOTHING that is the case .</p>

<p>Add in the fact that employers value GPA more than ever if you back door your way with TAG and don’t enjoy your subject you’ll struggle that why many people also consider universities other than Cal/UCLA even if they got in. if you can’t obtain a competitive GPA 3.2+ then don’t go it does you no good to graduate with a 2.8 and face that 3.0 cutoff that some employers have."</p>

<p>Okay, let’s analyze this. “Humanitites prepares you for nothing”…those are your own words. You’re right, clearly Humanities exists as a department specifically to eat up state and student tuition money. It has no purpose. The Humanities are a sham and philosophers like Kant, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle…they’re writings and beliefs are meaningless. God, now I’m sounding like vintij lol I’ll stop.</p>

<p>Seriously though, I see what you’re getting at. You contend that the Humanities does not translate into the job market. To that I say this: Are you aware that the majority of premeds are philosophy majors? I would say an MD can secure you a job just about anywhere even in this economy. Now that’s not to say everyone gets into med school. Far from it! However, I’m just saying that many students in the Humanities are targeting jobs that are marketable and make money.</p>

<p>On another note, I wouldn’t call Tag a “backdoor” strategy. In fact, I think TAG is one of the greatest things the CC -> UC system has to offer. It provides a legitimate cut-off for those that meet the minimum requirements for the university. Many students do go from CCC with a 3.0 and TAG. I don’t see anything wrong with this. If many CCC transfers with a 3.0 GPA consistently failed out of a UC, then this system would not be in place. </p>

<p>In fact, out of those students (again on average) that applied from De Anza to the UC’s, they were accepted with a 3.4 UC systemwide. De Anza had a 94% persistence rate, meaning that nearly 19/20 students remained at their respective UC after a year. Now, if I’m working in the administration at a UC, and I see that these transfers remain 94% of the time (i.e. not transferring to another school or dropping out) then I’d say the TAG agreement is not a failure or a backdoor method, but a legitimate system that is proven to work. Yes, these figures are going to be a bit off because who knows which of those 94% had a TAG, but we all know many did, and it’s clear that if only 6% of all students that transferred from De Anza are dropping out, then TAG must be significantly and pragmatically more effective than it is not.</p>

<p>You mention that some employers have a 3.0 cut-off. That’s completely unrelated to anything I was talking about. Nonetheless, let’s discuss this. If a student (student A) gets into UCSB with a 3.0, and according to your assumption, maintains that GPA, then the job opportunities for that student will decrease. However, it is the student’s choice (barring financial reasons) to attend that school is it not? That student could have gone to SFSU or SJSU (perhaps) but instead chose to go to a UC where it will likely be more difficult academically. Thus, it is the student’s fault for making a poor decision…not the TAG agreement’s fault lol. Many students recognize that a UC may not (academically) be the smartest decision, and that’s why they only apply to state schools, private schools, OOS schools, etc.</p>

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<p>“High school GPA is inflated at 80% of the high schools in California. Plus if you go to a disadvantaged one and show any semblance of caring you’ll get ELC which is a 90% acceptance rate into Davis/Irvine/SD and 60%+ acceptance for Cal/LA.”</p>

<p>The statistic I used was not inflated. I said that the unweighted average GPA from high school to Davis is a 3.6 (NO inflation). At a CCC, the average is a 3.2. Again, the .4 difference is legit.</p>

<p>I don’t know anything about ELC, but if that’s the case, that’s fine. ELC students represent, I’m going to guesstimate 5-8% of the California students, right? That’s a small sample size of the population and also an externalized group from what we’re discussing, which is general high school admittance rates.</p>

<p>“I went to C.C and i have to say the atmosphere is completely different. It was a culture shock to see. The people i met and the stories i hear from them really opened my eyes to the struggles.”</p>

<p>I think you’re getting the wrong impression of me. I’m completely empathetic for those that have had struggles, whether they be financial, emotional, physical, or psychological. Trust me, I’m a Psych major. I talk to people about this stuff every day. I’m not condemning their path. If anything, I’m trying to highlight how fantastic the CCC system is. From my perspective, it’s the best thing that ever happened to me. Like I mentioned above, I dropped out of high school (and yes, it was because I was failing).</p>

<p>“So 40,000 students from Deanza more or less. let say 70% wants to transfer or go to a CSU which also means “transfer eligible” CSU/UC have similar requirements”</p>

<p>I don’t mean to nitpick, but can you fine me a source that suggests around 70% want to transfer? I truly believe that a much much smaller percent are interested in transferring. I would estimate around 35-40%. Again, I don’t have an empirical source, so if you could, please find a figure that corresponds with your estimate.</p>

<p>You also wrote that 200 out of 30,000 transferred to a UC at that other community college. This just goes to show that clearly 70% are NOT trying to transfer. If anything, I would say at that school…at the very most 25% are trying to transfer. </p>

<p>“How many people from your High School made it to a top 50 school? i would guess more than 50% of the graduating class.”</p>

<p>Actually, I never graduated lol. However, out of the 400 students in the graduating class, hardly anybody was accepted into the top 50 in USNWR universities the year that I would have graduated. I would say honestly less than 10%. I’m not trying to be biased or exaggerate, I’m just trying to be real and tell ya that it is really hard to get in out of high school…the numbers reflect that. This means that the other 90% weren’t competitive enough out of high school to get in. We had 4 students go to Ivies out of 400. We had another 20 students go to a UC. Of course, some students probably opted out of UC’s for an OOS or private college, however, I wouldn’t say that figure is very low. No, I didn’t go to a very disadvantaged high school or anything. Actually, it’s in a very nice area. Thus…24/400 go to a UC or Ivy.</p>

<p>Maybe your high school was highly ranked. That would probably explain why 80% were accepted to UCM and UCR. I can tell you, though, from 9/10 kids I talk to (and I’m 18, so I talk to tons) not very many of them want to go to those schools. </p>

<p>What I’m trying to do is base my claims off of statistics and generalizations. I’m not trying to be biased, argue, or relate my personal experience except for when you asked questions. </p>

<p>Anyways, I just hope that you can be as empathetic for the high schoolers that work their butts off every day for 7 hours a day, in AP classes, SAT review courses, varsity sports, etc as you are for community college students. I can understand both sides, and I’m happy that both systems are in place. I just believe that CCC is easier to transfer than being admitted out of high school to a UC</p>