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<p>Too late to edit my last post, so I’ll add this:</p>
<p>When this blew up a few years ago, the Secretary of State was a Republican, a guy by the name of Charlie Summers. Good guy, but a bit of a puppet. The Secretary of State is now a Democrat. There’s no way a Democrat Secretary of State is going to go after college students who have registered to vote in Maine but have not obtained Maine driver’s licenses or re-registered their cars in Maine. Not gonna happen.</p>
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<p>That is true! We moved here in 1986 and are still not Mainers. People hear my Texas accent and say, “You’re not from around here, are you?”</p>
<p>When my son moved to Texas, he established residency down there for in-state tuition purposes (it wasn’t too hard to do in 2010, but it’s more difficult now). When he had to move back to Maine when he fell ill, I didn’t bother having him get a Maine driver’s license. When he was stopped by cops a few months later for speeding, he had to surrender his Texas license when he answered truthfully that he was living in Maine then. It was quite an ordeal getting him a Maine license again, because of his mental illness (not saying that’s a bad thing).</p>
<p>"You’re mixing terms here, so I’ll assume that when you say “permanent resident” you mean the same thing as “legal resident.” As I’ve shown you previously, a student from out of state who is going to school in New York can register to vote in New York, but becoming a legal resident of New York is a requirement of registering to vote. And once an out of state student becomes a legal resident of New York, he/she is obligated to fulfill the requirements imposed on all other legal residents of New York (see? everyone is treated the same).</p>
<p>No, I am not mixing terms. For the purposes of voting all that is required is that a student goes to school in the state. Period. </p>
<p>“When this blew up a few years ago, the Secretary of State was a Republican, a guy by the name of Charlie Summers. Good guy, but a bit of a puppet. The Secretary of State is now a Democrat. There’s no way a Democrat Secretary of State is going to go after college students who have registered to vote in Maine but have not obtained Maine driver’s licenses or re-registered their cars in Maine. Not gonna happen.”</p>
<p>He was still SoS when he sent those letters and there were students who refused to comply . He did not prosecute any of them. Why? And why were there no prosecutions between 2011 and the time he left office? </p>
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<p>The requirement that new residents of a state (however that is defined by the state, not necessarily only by voter registration) change their driver’s licenses if they drive, and change the registration of any cars that they bring in, is probably one of the most disobeyed requirements around (and not just by college students), probably mainly out of laziness. It is likely that such citations are only given when someone is otherwise attracting attention of the police in a traffic context (citation for violation of other traffic laws, or crash). Longer term new residents eventually tend to comply anyway when their out-of-state license or car registration expires. Actually, college students often do not drive (or drive very little) at their colleges, and often do not bring cars, so such requirements are less likely to matter for college students than other new residents.</p>
<p>As far as sending threatening letters goes, that is obviously a political move to discourage voting by presumed unfriendly voters. The requirement to change driver’s license and car registration when moving to the state is probably seen as too petty for most states to bother with primary enforcement.</p>
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<p>No. For purposes of claiming residency in a state all that is required is that a student goes to school in the state. In order to vote, students have to register. You forgot that part. The registering to vote and claiming residency are very often done at the same time through the same act.</p>
<p>SCOTUS has said that students from out of state who want to become a resident of the state in which they are going to school can not be denied that choice, even if the primary reason for wanting to switch residency status is to vote in the state where they are going to school. But in order to register to vote in a state, you must be a resident of that state. I have provided several sources that confirm this, including a link to the New York statute that specifically addresses this, and yet you continue to deny.</p>
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<p>I explained this to you. The political backlash was intense. In Maine, there is a strong moderate Republican tradition (thank goodness - think William Cohen, Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins), and for most Maine Republicans the idea of going after college students, even if they were more likely to vote Democratic, was unsavory. Before the most recent flip of the Maine legislature from Republican to Democratic (this is why Charlie Summers lost his Secretary of State job), a law was passed to abolish same day voter registration. Enough citizen signatures were gathered to force a popular referendum on the issue,and the people of Maine vetoed the law before it even went into effect, and it wasn’t a close vote. There is a strong tradition here of enfranchising voters, instead of making it more difficult to vote. Even though swapping an out of state driver’s license for a Maine license is not a criteria for voter eligibility, many people (including yourself) have conflated the issues. Charlie Summers knew it was not in his best interests or in the best interests of his party to force the issue, even when less moderate Republicans were pressuring him.</p>
<p>“In order to vote, students have to register. You forgot that part. The registering to vote and claiming residency are very often done at the same time through the same act.”</p>
<p>There is nowhere in Maine’s or any other state’s election law that one must register their vehicles or have driver’'s license issued by that state to register to vote and/or vote in that state. </p>
<p><a href=“Letter to Sec of State of Maine to Cease Actions that Intimidate Voters | Demos”>http://www.demos.org/publication/letter-sec-state-maine-cease-actions-intimidate-voters</a></p>
<p>2011/10/16/states-voting-letter-called-complete-intimidation/</p>
<p>I am not going to argue this with you anymore. </p>
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<p>You’re absolutely right, because as I’ve already told you many times, the license and car registration requirements are not part of the election law, they are separate requirements of being a legal resident of Maine.</p>
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<p>I don’t blame you; your position is not supported by the facts.</p>
<p>"I don’t blame you; your position is not supported by the facts. "</p>
<p>“Second, you go on to imply that all new residents of Maine have an affirmative duty to obtain a driver’s license. Of course, this is simply incorrect, given that non-drivers, as many university students are, have no such duty.”</p>
<p>“Your own investigation found no illegal registration by any of these students. Threatening prosecution, even indirectly, under the motor vehicle laws based on their status as registered voters is precisely the type of intimidation and harassment of persons exercising their lawful right to register and vote in a federal election covered by Section 11(b) of the Voting Rights Act. Voters in Maine – and in particular students - will now be fearful that exercising the right to vote will expose them to law enforcement investigation, and this will surely chill their future willingness to participate in elections. Indeed, under a predecessor statute to Section 11(b), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit held that local officials in Alabama had engaged in unlawful intimidation under the 1957 Civil Rights Act when they followed persons on their way home from a voter registration meeting and arrested them for actual traffic violations. U.S. v. Mcleod, 385 F.2d 734 (5th Cir. 1967). The pretext of carrying out an investigation of possible traffic violations did not immunize from scrutiny the conduct of local officials that tended to intimidate persons exercising their voting rights. Given the fact that you appear to have targeted these individuals only because they registered to vote, and that you specifically limited your investigation to these newly registered students, your investigation was clearly directly based on these voters’ exercise of their right to vote.”</p>
<p>“In addition to constituting a likely violation of Section 11(b) of the Voting Rights Act, your unwarranted investigation of lawful voting activities and threat to pursue legally registered voters under other state laws potentially violates the criminal prohibitions of Section 12 of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (“NVRA”), 42 U.S.C. § 1973gg-10, which provides for criminal penalties against:”</p>
<p><a href=“Letter to Sec of State of Maine to Cease Actions that Intimidate Voters | Demos”>http://www.demos.org/publication/letter-sec-state-maine-cease-actions-intimidate-voters</a></p>
<p>Hmmm… I thought you were done. Anyway…</p>
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<p>I agree with this, but it’s only partly correct. If a student who comes to Maine without a driver’s license wants to become a legal resident of Maine for the purpose of registering to vote in Maine, there is no affirmative duty for that person to obtain a Maine driver’s license. Of course, if they want to drive, they will need to get a driver’s license, and as a legal resident of Maine, it needs to be a Maine license. But if a student who comes to Maine with a driver’s license from another state wants to become a legal resident of Maine for the purpose of registering to vote in Maine (or for any other purpose), the presumption is that the student will continue to drive and the law therefore requires that this new Maine citizen transfer their out-of-state license to Maine.</p>
<p><a href=“Maine.gov: Residents”>Maine.gov: Residents;
<p>“You must obtain a new license within 30 days of moving to Maine.”</p>
<p>So no, all new residents of Maine do not have an affirmative duty to obtain a driver’s license; only those who already have a valid license issued by another state.</p>
<p>I pretty much agree with the other stuff you quoted, but it doesn’t change the fact that a new resident of Maine who has a valid driver’s license issued by another state is required under Maine law to turn in the out-of-state license and get a Maine license within a certain period of time. I’ve showed you that other states have this same requirement. Your quoted material has to do with voter intimidation. It doesn’t say that Maine can’t enforce any of its motor vehicle laws absent an intent to intimidate potential voters.</p>
<p>Why does this matter so much? I’m sure that law enforcement officials recognize that students are a special class of residents. Many of them spend 3 months of the year in another state and that may be the only state in which they do much driving. They need their IDs for that other state for when they are in that state. Police can check the student’s ID for that other state to verify identity if they need to. We have computers. Nobody really cares if students get driver’s licenses in the state in which they go to school. Other than you.</p>
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<p>It’s not about getting driver’s licenses in the state in which they go to school. That should be obvious if you’ve read through the thread. It’s about complying with state law by getting a driver’s license from the state of which you are a legal resident. And by the way, that license will serve perfectly well as a form of ID and as legal authority to drive in any state in the union.</p>
<p>It matters for two reasons:</p>
<p>Most importantly: A student claiming legal residency in a new state where they go to school is probably looking for some benefit by doing so. That benefit could take the form of having a say in choosing elected officials and determining laws, or it could be more favorable consideration for in-state tuition. That’s fine, welcome to my state, I’m sure you’ll be a productive member of society. But with the benefits come obligations and responsibilities. Maine cities and towns charge an excise tax on car registrations that fund a large part of their public works budgets. Fees for driver’s licenses are used to pay for various beneficial state programs. The state has a vested interest in being the entity that issues driver’s licenses to its own legal residents, and controls the registration (and inspection) of vehicles owned by Maine legal residents that are in the state.</p>
<p>Not nearly as important: When I stated much earlier in this thread that in order to vote in Maine you need to be a legal resident of Maine, and that Maine requires its legal residents who have driver’s licenses to have a Maine license, and for legal residents of Maine who have cars in Maine to have Maine registrations for those cars, I was told that I was wrong. Well, when I know that I am right and someone tells me that I am wrong, I’m happy to continue the discussion.</p>
<p>" I pretty much agree with the other stuff you quoted, but it doesn’t change the fact that a new resident of Maine who has a valid driver’s license issued by another state is required under Maine law to turn in the out-of-state license and get a Maine license within a certain period of time. I’ve showed you that other states have this same requirement. Your quoted material has to do with voter intimidation. It doesn’t say that Maine can’t enforce any of its motor vehicle laws absent an intent to intimidate potential voters. "</p>
<p>Midd, I will only ask you one question. Is my son committing voter fraud by voting in Maine? A simple yes or no. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that the SoS did not find any evidence of any voter fraud by the 200+ students he sent the threatening letters to who had out of state driver’s licenses and car registration. </p>
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<p>NO</p>
<p>(assuming he’s also not registered to vote somewhere else)</p>
<p>I know that you asked for a simple yes or no, but I need to elaborate. I never claimed that your son was committing voter fraud. What I said was that if the facts are as you have described them, your son is in violation of Maine motor vehicle laws. I’m sure your son is a smart guy. In my opinion, anyone who comes from out-of-state to go to school here has to be pretty smart. It’s a beautiful state with lots to offer. Maine is also one of the oldest states in the country (by the age of the population) and we need young blood to help the economy and diversity of the state. The fact that your son has registered to vote here (and hopefully has actually voted) is a good thing, because in my mind it means there’s a better chance that he will stay after he’s done with school. I hope he does. But if he has registered to vote here, that means that he has declared himself to be a legal resident of Maine, subject to all the laws and requirements that every other Maine legal resident must abide by.</p>
<p>and if a college student has no car, and does not ever drive in the state of the college, who the heck cares whether he has a driver’s license from that state or whether he keeps the one from his original state. Not to mention that getting to the DMV without a car is a definite PITA.</p>
<p>Ah, donna, good to hear from you again.</p>
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<p>Read my responses in post #88 (pay attention to the word “presumption”) and post #90.</p>
<p>So, he has not committed voter fraud in Maine, despite the fact that he has an OOS driver’s license and, in fact, does drive in Maine. Therefore, one must conclude that regardless of what state one’s driver’s license was issued and driving in Maine with an OOS license, it is not a requirement for the purposes of voting in Maine. </p>
<p>And again, why did the SoS, while still in office, not prosecute the OOS students he sent threatening letters to who refused to comply with his request under the motor vehicle law they were “supposedly” in violation of and neither did the State’s Attorney General. As officials of Maine they are obligated, are they not, to enforce the laws of their state, no? </p>
<p>Well, I am sure that if they are attempting to get in -state tuition, that getting the driver’s license is one of the things they do without some statute hanging over them. It’s a pretty powerful incentive, saving all that money. Does it work? Is it easy for OOS kids to get in-state tuition?</p>
<p>So the DMV generates a profit? I never thought of that, would have assumed they charge just enough to fund dept. operations. Hmmm. What sort of programs are funded by this? I guess that is a reason for long time residents to care, and more compelling than just wanting someone to admit they are wrong.</p>
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<p>That is correct, and I have never argued otherwise. However, having a Maine driver’s license is a requirement of being a legal resident of Maine, for those who want to have driver’s license to be able to drive.</p>
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<p>In previous posts I have provided my opinion as to why there was no prosecution. Selective prosecution happens all the time. If you want a different or fuller explanation, you’ll need to contact the relevant (former) public officials.</p>
<p>“However, having a Maine driver’s license is a requirement of being a legal resident of Maine, for those who want to have driver’s license to be able to drive.”</p>
<p>If that is a requirement to be a legal resident of Maine and he is not complying with that law, then he would be committing voter fraud by voting because he is obviously, not a legal resident under that definition. But the SoS found that none of the 200+ OOS he sent the threatening letter to where in violation of any law. </p>
<p>However:</p>
<p>“In the past, courts have ruled that students can consider a college dormitory their primary residence, which would allow them to vote in that community even if they are not full-time Maine residents.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://bangordailynews.com/2011/09/21/politics/secretary-of-state-finds-no-student-voter-fraud-but-maintains-system-is-vulnerable/”>http://bangordailynews.com/2011/09/21/politics/secretary-of-state-finds-no-student-voter-fraud-but-maintains-system-is-vulnerable/</a> </p>
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<p>So now you’re saying that your son is committing voter fraud? Interesting, but I don’t agree. Paying state income tax is a requirement of Maine residents (if the person earns enough taxable income). If someone cheats on their state taxes and fails to pay enough tax, that doesn’t meant that they are no longer a legal resident of Maine. It means that they are breaking the law and subject to prosecution.</p>
<p>I don’t know anything about anybody on that list of 200+ names. The list was provided by former state Republican party chairman Charlie Webster, who is not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don’t know what kind of investigation was done or how many of the people on the list were looked at. It doesn’t matter. You have used your son as an example, so that’s what I have been responding to. Based on what you have told me, and based on my knowledge of Maine law, your son had and continues to have an obligation to turn in his New York driver’s license for a Maine driver’s license, and to get Maine registration for the car that he has in Maine.</p>