This is my first post, so bear with me if someone has already answered my questions elsewhere.
My daughter is a junior in high school whose dream is to get both a vocal performance major and a performance major in french horn. She is very good at both (I have been told).
My first question - is this possible anywhere? We’ve visited St. Olaf College in Minnesota, where she learned that it really isn’t feasible there. We were told that nobody has ever done it, essentially meaning no.
Second question - we are already looking into Indiana University and Lawrence University, but what other colleges should we be looking into? She’s got a 3.9 GPA and a 33 on her ACT, so she can academically get into just about anywhere she wants to go, but we aren’t even sure where to start, except for the local choice, St. Olaf College. We are hoping for academic and arts scholarships to help with the cost, since we don’t have a ton stored up for college and she has a twin brother going, too.
Her main requirements are that the school have a good opera program and a specific french horn professor, not just a brass professor. Even if she has to choose one, she won’t quit doing the other. She’s currently taking private lessons in both.
We are on the fence in regards to conservatory vs. liberal arts schools.
She wants to be hear an urban area, since she was told by her french horn instructor that you can get gigs to help pay for school if you are near a larger city.
Size so far is open
I’d prefer midwest, around Minnesota, but realize that may not be the best so we are looking all over the place.
She will need to choose one before entering college. She could audition for both but she would need to choose.
The amount of time spent practicing an instrument in college is much greater than high school. Often students can work in a few areas successfully in high school. BUT in college, for a BM, the amt of time needed to excell at one instrument and keep up with peers is significant. That is why you can not do both as a BM. Others can chime in about the merits of a BA and maybe it’s possible in that way. That I would not know.
She could continue in lessons and possibly gig for French horn…I have no idea the demand there. But gigging vocally for classical voice is limited.
All 3 schools, which I know well, are not urban. At IU and St. Olaf there are major cities nearby. My D also wanted urban but felt a city nearby would help. The issue is however that music students are incredibly busy. Maybe once a year on a long weekend did my D make it to the city for a day. Now everyone is different. But I know many people think it is possible to do a lot of things during college. But what happens is that students are very busy with their classes and homework, spending hours in practice room and the in the evening and sometimes weekends is ensemble work.
You are early in the process and are asking good questions. You have some good school for opera (I can’t comment on French horn). Oberlin, Michigan and northwestern would seem to make sense as well in the mid-west. Maybe De Paul as well but I’m not real familiar with their program. I just know some of my D’s voice friend auditioned there and were accepted with some pretty good aid.
I know of one young lady from our HS who double majored in voice (classical) and violin at UMiami. So it is at least theoretically possible for your daughter to continue studying opera and an instrument there. It would be worth looking into. Lawrence is generally known for its flexibility and allowing students the opportunity to pursue their interests and she would likely get some good merit for her high stats if she is admitted there.
Practically every parent of a potential VP major (BA or BM) underestimates the time commitment to that major. (let alone the time commitment to an instrumental performance major)
Ensemble work, practice, languages(and practice), history, music theory, pedagogy, choir, …on and on. There is a reason that “nobody has ever done it”. And it’s not because there aren’t any other multi talented students.
Also—most if not all departments want to award merit scholarships to someone who is going to give them their full attention.
There have been posters on here looking to double major in composition and an instrument - which narrowed the choices considerably. One ended up at Ithaca. No idea of how the demands of voice mesh with those of the instrumentalist. Rehearsal times, ensembles, performances - there could be significant conflicts. As for earning money gigging - it’s just as likely in a rural area where you can get wedding gigs and classical musicians are rarer. Also, if I were you, I wouldn’t be worrying about her earning money as an undergrad, and instead focus on the program. The rest will work itself out. She certainly could continue to take private lessons in voice during undergrad, and study foreign languages. Many wise posters on here feel that undergrad for voice is purely foundational while the voice develops, and that performance opportunities are not necessarily a good thing, except for art songs. There are plenty more informed vocal music parents on this board who can guide you.
If , after she studied French Horn as and undergrad and she ultimately wanted to pursue a career in opera, she could still audition for grad school for an MM in voice. Not every MM student in voice has their undergrad degree in VP. However most females who succeed in this route have spent time as an undergrad in music study, continued with private voice lessons with good teachers and are already proficient in languages.
I think that she needs to decide what she wants to do with her degree. Where does she see herself in the end? Not in both an orchestra and an opera company, so which calls to her? The other can be done with private lessons to keep an interest going, but it would not be in a majors studio. I am not aware of the Miami situation but in the programs we were aware of the mandatory ensembles and studios were at the same time so she would not be able to do both in most places. Theory, ear training, and history would overlap but voice would have the languages and diction and instruments requires significant time in the practice room and with ensembles.
Since you mentioned limited funds, I was assuming she’s wanting a BM in 4 years. And remember most serious musicians go on to grad school. So…you could theoretically study both somewhere maybe but getting that done in 4 years would be tough if even possible. Lawrence has a double degree program but it is 5 years and not 2 instruments…but you could ask. Lawrence and St. Olaf would be the more flexible, accommodating schools. So St. Olaf saying no means something. Still I would guess they would support private lessons for one instrument.
One other thing to keep in mind is that some teachers don’t like students splitting their attn. Be aware of that. Right or wrong some may read that as not fully vested. LACs are typically better about that. They know students are young and exploring. So if she does want to do one as her major but still work hard on the other, an LAC may be a good fit. There is nothing wrong with this strategy. It’s just be sure to explore this and the reaction as you visit schools.
I can’t imagine trying to double major in voice and an instrument. My S is a junior voice performace major and every waking hour seems to be taken up by commitments. Private voice lessons, coaching, rehearsals for one opera, two choirs, singing for composition major’s recitals - not to mention classes and private rehearsal time. Most days he is “working” from 10am to 10pm. At his school, there are some kids who double major in voice and music education. They are just as busy but usually don’t have time for the performances that my kid does.
In most schools the music performance students are expected to practice on their own 3-4 hours. That is outside of chour, band, orchestra, chamber groups, etc. And on top of your music and gen ed classes. If you major in two instruments/voice you cannot split the practice time, you must do that amount for both. So 6-8 hours a day, probably 6 days a week. I have a BM (years ago in music ed) and I can tell you that’s a lot of practice time for a college student. Not impossible but tough. This practice time isn’t a hard and fast rule, just a practical guideline. But most of the other students will be doing that, if not more. That guideline is from regular universities, expectations for conservatory might be more. (My son is going into a trumpet performance degree and considering a second academic major, so we have been thinking about this as well).
So have the conversation with you kid about how much time she can see herself practicing and on which instrument. That can help guide a decision. And I agree with earlier poster, think about where she sees herself after college.
Thank you all! This process is so new to me, and I have twins who are both planning to be music majors - her twin brother wants to do composition and music ed - so any advice is very welcome!
Knowing what I know of BM programs, I have to chime in on the side of not knowing how it would be possible. Music performance on the instrumental side requires a lot of practice, plus ensembles, practicing for them, rehearsals, VP requires foreign language study, the only ‘saving’ might be in things like theory and such that both types take.
In theory, she could get a BM in horn or voice, and take lessons on the side. Those more knowledgeable about voice, like Mezzo’s mom, could give you the practicality of doing BM in horn while taking private voice lessons and then going for an MM In that (my thought being that voices develop later).
To be honest, I suspect she is going to have to make a choice and apply on one or the other, music at the college level is way, way different than high school, it is a level of intensity above. Even if a school allowed it, I suspect she would find it very difficult to achieve a high level in one or the both of them.
It seems to me the only realistic route would be the one @musicamusica suggested. And you would have to do it that way (i.e., you wouldn’t be likely to be able to major in VP while continuing lessons in horn and then major in horn again in grad school).
Since you know MN, I do know one girl who did piano performance for undergrad at UMN and continued voice lessons at MacPhail. She was very advanced at all and was able to finish her BM in 3 years. She then auditioned for an MM in VP. I never heard the results but I suspect she got in somewhere. Since UMN and MacPhail do trade teaching staff and are very near to each other, this is a way that the VP skills can be maintained while studying an instrument. Just an example of what could be possible if she is driven to do both.
@kmchas, regarding your son who wants to do comp and music ed, keep in mind that music ed degrees tend to require the most units not only for music degrees, but often for any undergrad major in the university. This is particularly true for instrumental music ed, slightly less so for vocal ed. Comp might match better with other music degrees than 2 performance degrees, but it would still be a lot of work.
My comments here and in previous post are assuming they are trying to get out in 4 years. Adding another year of undergrad will make it easier to get both degrees. But still will be a lot of work.
I know someone who did something very similar at the University of Texas. In order to study both voice and oboe, he had to double major in oboe performance and choral music education. He was the first student to ever do something like that, and it caused a lot of disruption and scheduling issues (especially regarding ensembles). He also took 5 years and lots of summers to finish both degrees. Point is, there are some schools that will allow this to happen, but it takes a lot of hard work, dedication, willingness and ability to compromise, and a healthy amount of patience and understanding with faculty members and advisors.
@kmchas One school to consider for composition and music ed would be Ithaca College. It’s known for its music ed, and is open to double majors within the music school. And the composition department is a nice one. However, one thing I would warn your son about - if he has a full time job teaching K-12, I’ve seen how difficult it can be to have the energy to compose, or work on his career as a composer. Unless he’s most interested in writing music for student ensembles, which he very well may be.
D successfully completed double performance major (flute and piano) at UMich in 4 years with highest honors.
She was also an 8-term Angell Scholar at UMich. It took a lot of work. PM me if you need more information.
If your D wants to double performance major, she won’t have time to do gigs outside the University. Therefore location should not be a concern. D did take some accompanying gigs in the school.
That’s a great accomplishment @pointegirl ! My only concern with the OP is that “voice is different”.Squeezing German, French and Italian in there is tough under any circumstances… I don’t know that instrumentalists have the same onerous requirements in regards to languages.
One semester each according to UMIch. Can voice major take language placement test? Piano major is required to take two semester of one of the three languages. D tested out of French but was able to squeeze French IV in her study. I don’t think double instrumental major is any less than voice and instrumental combined. D was able to go beyond graduation requirements, taking probably more not-required elective courses than most music majors. D spent 7-8 hours a day, 7 days a week in practice room. Part of her piano requirement is 2 years of accompanying class which she needed to go to instrumentalist’s and vocalist’s studio classes. D was in 4-years of band and/or orchestra ( only 4 semester is required. She was in for 4 years due to scholarship requirement but some students were able to get around that rule, didn’t know how. She didn’t want to because she loves orchestra). She took 7 semesters of piano chamber music, which is not required at all for piano major. The advantage D had before going to college is her superb musicianship which allowed her to test out of many classes.
UMich is very friendly to double degree/double major students. D took advantage of flexible credit hour rule to avoid paying for extra credit fees. Two of her roommates were double degree students (both were music performance and science double degree students).