<p>My son wants to major in philosophy and microbiology. He plans to go to med school. Among other places he was accepted at University of Chicago (**his dream school) and University of Pittsburgh.</p>
<p>Chicago: he likes the intellectual atmosphere, the rigor, the name/reputation, the other students. BUT it would cost us AND him a lot of money. He would graduate with 20k + of debt and we would end up paying 60k. He would have to work during school and summers. Also it is #20 for philosophy and has no major in microbiology (but he could substitute another biosci)</p>
<p>Pitt: has the #4 philosophy program and a good micro program and great premed support. He would be in the honors college and has wonderful scholarships and is up for a full ride. He would have no debt when he graduates and lots of opportunities for research, travel, summer projects. BUT the school isn't as prestigious and he worries that the overall atmosphere won't be as intellectual/rigorous as Chicago.</p>
<p>What do you think? How should I advise him? While I think Pitt is the more sensible choice, HE really, really loves the idea of Chicago.</p>
<p>Chicago is so so intense. Has he spent enough time on campus to know what he would be getting into if he went there? If he really, really loves to study, Chicago might be perfect for him but if he needs a little of everything to be happy, spending some time at both Chicago and Pitt might be enough to tell him that Chicago is not his cup of tea. Chicago is perfect for some kids. My D loved our visit to Chicago - it is cool! it is challenging! it is in a neat neighborhood! the kids are smart and interesting! - but ended up not applying. The more she thought about it the more she realized she is the sort of person who really enjoys spending a fair amount of her time on a variety extracurricular activities. Honors at Pitt would be a better fit for, I dare say, most kids but I think he needs to figure this out for himself.</p>
<p>And he is right - on the whole, all around, the amosphere at Chicago is certainly more rigorous and intellectual, so if that is his #1 priority, Pitt will be a tough sell. But if he is torn between the pros and cons of the two, I would think the requirement for loans and school-year employment would be an important factor.</p>
<p>He really DOES like to study and he is an intense driven kid BUT he also likes to play rugby. He was dismayed that he could “only” take 4 classes per quarter at Chicago. This kid LOVES school and learning.</p>
<p>I worry that he will burn out. He doesn’t. And so far he has done really, really well managing his own life. I just hate to have my child start out life 20k in debt and then if he decides to go to med school…AND he wants to do infectious disease in the third world…it just seems like a LIFETIME of debt.</p>
<p>I’m not sure where you are getting the ratings for philosophy programs, but I rather doubt that they make sense. University of Chicago is renowned for its philosophy and social theory programs. The faculty are world-class and many students care about philosophy. </p>
<p>That said, students studying philosophy at Pitt are no doubt very strong as are the faculty. Actually, since the job market for philosophy PhDs is so weak and has been so long, there are excellent philosophy faculty anywhere there has been a good deal of hiring in the last 20 years. </p>
<p>I think that visits to both are worth making. Often a student will get a feeling about a place that she or he did not expect. </p>
<p>Also, do check out (via CC and other sources) the quality of the honors program at Pitt. I don’t know anything about it, but do know that honors programs vary a lot in rigor of courses and the intellectual bent of students.</p>
<p>Chicago is a fine school, but I think he should choose Pittsburgh and save the money for Med school (assuming he wont be applying to a MD/PhD) program). There are good professors everywhere because the PhD candidates on the job markets are more the positions available at all the top schools.</p>
<p>At the undergraduate level, the education is almost the same everywhere. The students wont be the same, but the professors would be equally good.</p>
<p>Momfrome the rankings are from a well regarded ranking system (edited, ironically by a UofC professor!) It is generally regarded as the source for rankings for philosophy
1 New York University
2 Rutgers University , New Brunswick
3 Princeton University
4 University of Pittsburgh
20 University of Texas , Austin
21 University of California ,
University of Chicago</p>
<p>I get the prestige thing… and I think the undergrad school does have a bearing on grad, med and law school. However, the debt of med school is going to be huge… and frankly, who knows what kind of incomes doctors will continue to make. Their malpractice insurance alone is huge. The real dilemma is how do you look at your child, wanting to give them the world, and try to teach prudence?</p>
<p>I would do a little research on Med school placement etc for Pitt and see what the statistics are. And the truth is, if there was no debt he would also have time to do more summer research or unpaid internships that the cash-strap of Chicago wouldn’t allow. </p>
<p>Also, you could call Chicago and see if there is any wiggle room in the financial aid department. The worst they could say is “no” and after this whole college admissions waiting game of “no’s”, how bad could it be?</p>
<p>Our dilemma is… son doesn’t have to weight financial issues, which is not exactly a bad problem to have in the least - i really recognize this because it wasn’t always that way. But its also a double edged sword. On the one hand no one is making the decision for you and on the other no one is making the decision for you. Sometimes it’s the realities that help narrow the field of view. </p>
<p>Both are solid schools, but if he is looking at Chicago for name when it’s programs aren’t exactly a perfect fit it won’t fit in the end. And don’t underestimate who gets into honors programs. After all… they admit students just like him.</p>
<p>I take another tack. The world is filled with former pre-meds. Actual Dr’s- not so much. Actual Dr’s working in the third world- even fewer.</p>
<p>I learned from older and wiser friends to deal with the problem at hand. Somehow, tomorrow’s problems would vaporize (not that there weren’t problems ahead… they were just different than the ones you thought you needed to solve.)</p>
<p>If it were me I’d help my kid figure out where he’d be the most challenged – or where he’d be challenged to a satisfactory degree given the cost, level of debt, etc. I don’t think you want him going to Pitt to save money for med school, only to hate orgo, decide he doesn’t want a medical career, and then discovers Pitt doesn’t have enough of the other things he needs. Nor do you want him at Chicago to bask in the intellectual environment only to discover that his debt load makes most interesting careers unfeasible (I don’t think 20K will do that to him… but its presumptuous of me to comment on your financial situation.)</p>
<p>Can you handle the 60K for Chicago? I don’t think 20 grand represents a “lifetime of debt”. That’s no worse than buying a Honda Civic. I’m all for saving money, and Pitt may indeed be his better choice, I just think 20K is generally manageable.</p>
<p>We have friends whose very gifted son had the same dilemma a few years ago. He really wanted to go to Chicago, but for financial reasons chose Pitt. Evidently he has done quite well there. He has applied to graduate programs in Physics at Princeton and Oxford, so it sounds like Pitt hasn’t exactly crushed his ambitions. Maybe the school just needs a more fortunate nickname than “Pitt”.</p>
<p>If he’s really committed to med school, he’ll need to have the highest possible gpa too.
Speaking only from heresay, that might be easier to accomplish at Pitt.
Chicago is an awesome city for a student (D there now as grad student) but Pittsburgh is cool enough. And again, U of Chicago probably won’t allow him much free time to enjoy it!</p>
<p>In either case, what a great problem to have. You both should be very proud. These are two fabulous schools–can’t make a bad choice. But if his heart is telling him Chicago, he should do it anyway, in spite of the loans. I agree that in the scheme of things $20k isn’t that bad.</p>
<p>In fact, I actually doubt he will go to med school. I think college is for discovering all your possibilities and he might discover something more interesting. I completely agree that most “premeds” end up doing something else. He is definitely not seeking big money in his life and the intellectual challenge is what really attracts him…</p>
<p>Truly if it weren’t for the money (and 60k would be a sacrifice for us) and his future debt AND the fact that working in summers, etc would limit his options for research, summer programs, travel abroad projects, I would COMPLETELY support Univ. of Chicago. It does seems like a good fit.</p>
<p>But he would have some many other opportunities at Pitt for FREE that it feels like a tough decision</p>
<p>Opportunity, ease, money, fun, honors vs prestige and intellectual satisfaction?</p>
<p>Only he can decide I guess, but I really appreciate everyone’s feedback. It helps.</p>
<p>General advice: choose the college/university, not the undergraduate major. Two reasons for this: (1) typically a student takes only about 25% of courses in the major/concentration; (2) most students change their major at least once.</p>
<p>Also consider the overall atmospherics of the college, including the (urban) setting, intellectual climate. Which does your son prefer?</p>
<p>Nobody else can weigh the monetary issues for you. However, I do not think $20K is a lifetime burden. JMHO.</p>
<p>(Truth in lending disclosure: my son went to UChicago.)</p>
<p>I think he needs to evaluate how sure he feels about med school. It will be harder to maintain a high GPA at Chicago and I have seen kids turn down Chicago for this reason. Good luck – this sounds like a hard decision.</p>
<p>Agree with #14 about choosing the school not the specific undergrad major and the rest of the campus atmosphere. Physician here. Have him consider which school he would enjoy most- college is a 4 year slice of time that should be lived to the fullest, especially if one plans on future schooling. This can mean intense academics but should also be a time to take all sorts of courses he won’t have time for later. Pick the campus, not the city- a good campus has so much going on you don’t need/want to leave its area to find something to do. Either school will be fine for getting into medical school, if that’s what he wants later. He should look at each school’s required courses- he may prefer flexibility or core reqs. I would opt for the cheaper school if there were no compelling reasons to choose one over the other. Having a better academic peer group is certainly a reason. Good luck.</p>
<p>I think that it is quite possible to find intellectual friends and intellectual challenges at a lot of colleges. </p>
<p>I’ll also note that the cost difference is not simply $20K or even $80K. It’s also the time freed up for him if he does not have to work at school and/or during the summers.</p>
<p>It is rare that I wish I had more money. We aren’t much about money in this family and we are mostly pretty happy and comfortable. But this is the moment when I wish I had rich parents or an extra 50k just lying around the house…or I had picked a job that was less about idealistic service and more about paycheck! : )</p>
<p>It would nice to be able to give my son the luxury of a choice without worrying about money. </p>
<p>I know there are a lot of families in our boat.</p>
Sometimes it’s the realities that help narrow the field of view. </p>