What would you do? Please vote!

Parents Forum
1

<p>Okay, I need some pragmatic advice and perspective here:</p>

<p>S applied to two reaches (waitlisted), two matches (admitted w/ no merit aid) and two safeties (admitted with merit aid). </p>

<p>He wants to major in political science with the goal of law school and an eventual political career (either behind the scenes as a speech writer/analyst or out front as an elected official).</p>

<p>He has decided to choose between the match schools because he worries about a possible lack of intellectual rigor at his safeties. The problem is there is a huge difference in cost between these two schools. </p>

<p>I will lay it out and ask for your honest feedback. (I've been far too close to this process to have good perspective right now). </p>

<p>School A: University of Chicago
Cost to us: $43,500 x 4 = $174,000
Why he wants to go: Rigorous curriculum, likes the Core, small classes, more attention from profs, urban environment, out of state experience, great political science dept.
Why I want him to go: A smaller community. A more personal college experience. The intellectualism of Chicago fits him to a tee. A nice blend of LAC and research univ. I've always looked for a CTY type college for him, and this is it -- we visited and it felt really right.</p>

<p>School B: UC Berkeley
Cost to us: $21,500 x 3* = $64,500 (*due to his 12 transferable CC classes and 5 APs, he would have close to junior status and could graduate easily in three years)
Why he wants to go: Skip many entry-level classes not in his major. Graduate with no loans and a good chunk of money left over for law or grad school. Has friends from high school who are there or nearby. Good poly sci program.
Why I have reservations: The place is huge, impersonal and facing budget problems. He will be a number. He comes from a small high school where he is well-known by everyone; not sure he would be good at making contacts or getting known by profs (future recs?) The undergrad curriculum can't be as rigorous. (Will he learn how to really think?) He would be 20 years old when he graduated. (Would he be ready/mature enough for grad school?) Would he get into as good of a grad/law school from Berkeley?</p>

<p>Bottom line: Is a UChicago education worth $110,000 more than a UC Berkeley education for any kid?</p>

<p>(Quick edit: We/he would need to take out loans of approx. $40,000 to cover Chicago costs.)</p>

2

<p>There's an old saying that all politics are local. If you KNEW you were pursuing a career in politics, its usually better to have gone to school in the area you hope to represent, and coming from a publically supported school is a good idea, too. I don't personally believe that we should hold kids to what they want as high school students - they're entitled (expected) to change their minds. </p>

<p>I think that your s., like every other student facing this choice, must visit both places and go with his instinct (provided you have funding lined up). Whether you're willing as a parent to take on debt, live frugally, have s. take on debt, work summers and during school year, are decisions that only you can make.</p>

3

<p>In the state of Alabama, this would be a no-brainer, because anyone with in-state political aspirations (and most politicians have to start in-state, right?), needs the connections forged at an in-state school in order to succeed at politics. That's something of an overstatement, but less than you would think, there is a basic distrust of those fancy out of state schools. Where's Mini's "What could you/he do with that extra $110K?". How about finance Harvard Law?.</p>

<p>A basic practical question - at UCB, will his advanced standing allow him priority registration? If he can skip the frosh classes, and get into the classes he wants/needs, it may alleviate some of your justified concerns about size and impersonality.</p>

4

<p>"I think that your s., like every other student facing this choice, must visit both places and go with his instinct (provided you have funding lined up)." </p>

<p>Thanks for your quick response, lefthand. He has visited both schools. Chicago for an overnight last fall and Berkeley for a one-day visit in his soph. year. He does plan to do an overnight in two weeks at Cal to get a better feel for it. His response is he would be happy at either place. (As his mom, though, I think Chicago is a much better fit... just not a 100 grand better fit... how do you quantify such things?).</p>

<p>Also, I edited my OP to reflect that we would need to take out loans for $40K to make Chicago work (we were really optimistic about merit aid there, but it didn't happen).</p>

5

<p>Having grown up near Berkeley, getting out of California for a while was my primary goal after hs. For your S, Berkeley is safe, close to home and cheaper.</p>

<p>Chicago would be an expensive adventure on many angles for your S, one that would stay with him forever.</p>

<p>Both Berkeley and Chicago can be political timebombs but either would be a good experience for anyone interested in public service.</p>

<p>If family can afford it, I would recommend Chicago.
S can always do a summer internship or something at Berkeley.</p>

6

<p>cangel, thanks. See these are the kinds of things I just have no clue about (that politicians should go to in-state schools due to mistrust of out of state schools, etc...). I never thought about it that way. And yes, I need Mini's practicality right now, big time. I've worried so much about finding the right fit for this kid that I'm having a hard time letting it go, even if he's fine with it.</p>

7

<p>gsp-- yes, this was my thinking exactly, get him out of state. Have him go to a school that would stay with him forever, change his thinking, truly challenge him... But couldn't he do that for grad school in three years?</p>

8

<p>When he graduates at 20, is he going to feel he had a whole college experience? Will losing the one year of undergrad bother him, or is that a plus? I ask because I know that my D, who transfered as a sophomore, has always mourned that one year she didn't get to do at her school, so I think it's something to consider.</p>

9

<p>You did say vote, so I vote for Chicago.</p>

10

<p>You wanted us to vote, so I will. </p>

<p>Berkekey would be the way I would go with a son whose interests and goals are public service and politics. Although it's a large school, there are so many opportunities, and once he becomes involved in things, his world will revolve around those connections. It's true he won't have the personal attention, but then he will have learned A LOT about how to manage and find a place for himself in a large pool. It's hard for me to imagine a school that would be better for someone with his goals, frankly. And I wouldn't be concerned about any lack of rigor at Berkeley. Are you serious?
About graduating at 20. Why does he need to go to grad school immediately following graduation? How about an internship, or involvment in a political campaign?</p>

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<p>Hey, Mominca, this is why the decision is difficult, there is no one absolute right answer! Something else occurred to me, reading your post #7, if he grads early, if that really is what he wants to do, then he will get to that "life changing school" even faster, and still pretty young.</p>

12

<p>Momof2inca:</p>

<p>A few things to consider:
Would housing be available at UCB for all 3 years? If not, that will need to be factored in (as would the cost of travel to and fro Chicago for your S).
Another option that could make UCB really attractive would be to use the college credits to get advanced standing but stay for four years and get a combined BA/MA if this is available. It would still come out cheaper than U of C. This would get him out of huge introductory classes and into classes that would have a more intellectually rigorous feel. Another option students with Advanced Standing take is a Study Abroad year. Again, it would come out cheaper than Chicago </p>

<p>Personally, I prefer U of C for undergraduates but a difference of $100k is hard to swallow.</p>

13

<p>is Chicago going to make your family go into debt for $40,000 every year?
not worth it
however- students should be able to earn at least $3,000 a summer to apply toward their school expenses & to work at least a small job during the school year to cover books and personal expenses.
Students should also be willing to graduate with $15,000 - $20,000 in debt in hopefully subsidized loans to go to their dream school.
I don't know what you have already figured in for your sons contribution- but if he can earn/take out loans for $8,000 every year ( which would be doable if he does both) then you can subtract that from the parent contribution</p>

14

<p>Quick question, just curious, what were the two safeties that offered merit aid? And did he visit those?</p>

<p>And I will have to agree with Cangel about the local politics in relation to state schools, at least in our neck of the woods. Was especially true with John Edwards last fall here in Carolina.</p>

<p>I'm leaning to Berkeley for my vote but am interested in his safeties with merit.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

15

<p>garland, well... he might mourn the one year lost (especially if his best friend is still at Cal for his senior year), but he definitely plans to go to law school (three years) or grad school (two years), so the minimum college experience he will get is 5 - 6 years. </p>

<p>Thanks for your vote mstee!</p>

<p>ASAP, I was seriously questioning the lack of rigor at Cal, only because both H and I graduated from state schools here (not Cal) and we did not feel exceptionally intellectually stimulated (of course, Cal is a much more elite school than either mine or H's). I do know how rigorous Chicago is, but am not clear about Berkeley. And I think for some reason I have a reverse bias against our flagship state school... does that make any sense? Good point about not going directly to grad school after getting the BA. The Kennedy School of Government actually states they prefer applicants have at least one year of full-time work experience before they apply. He could work at the state Capitol or on a national campaign maybe and then go to grad school (another aspect I didn't think of ).</p>

<p>cangel, not sure about priority registration, but he can definitely transfer over the 12 undergrad classes (ranging from Calculus to history of music to psychology) and get some of the basic classes out of the way. That would mean he could focus on his major sooner.</p>

<p>Votes so far: 2 Chicago, 1 Berkeley (some people have not voted yet)</p>

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<p>As for value towards graduate school or law school admissions, there is no difference in my opinion. Top students at Cal go on to top grad programs. As for rigor, while Chicago (and I'm a big Chicago fan) has the reputation for being the place that works kids to death, that doesn't mean Berkeley does not offer a hard-working kid an excellent education. These are the top faculties in the world. The difference will be class size, especially for a major as popular at Poli Sci., and the need for him to take the initiative. </p>

<p>I'd focus on your concern of whether or not he has the personality to take advantage of Berkeley -- to pursue office hours, compete with grad students for faculty attention, get involved in the tons of activities, and just make friends. It sounds to me as if he thinks he does. I'd be much more worried if he thought Berkeley was intimidating.</p>

<p>As to the three vs four years, here is a real advantage to Berkeley you might consider: the fabulous UC abroad program, which is only open to UC students and which sends kids to almost thirty different countries at the cost of UC tuition. (My UCLA daughter went to University of Bologna, daughter of a friend just spent half a year in Senegal and half a year in Paris.) What a great opportunity for someone interested in political science, to see how they do things in another part of the world. He might consider graduating in four years, with a year abroad.</p>

<p>I'm not going to vote because he's the only one whose vote really counts. He should spend more time at both places. If he likes both equally, why not go with the option that doesn't require taking out loans? Either school, I don't think he can lose.</p>

17

<p>Well, I'm too chicken to vote, but there is one consideration I haven't seen yet in this thread -- the cost of law school. Will "saving money" by going to Berkeley have a significant impact on your S's ability to finance law school without a crippling debt for you or him? Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.</p>

18

<p>Momof2inca</p>

<p>If he goes to Berkley, will he be able to live on campus or will he have to be a commuter student? </p>

<p>While Berkley is be big, his advanced standing and the fact that he will have by passed the intro courses, would place him into smaller classes and the world also becomes a little smaller by major. </p>

<p>If he is okay being at Berkely let him attend the Law School of his choice knowing that it would be pretty close to being paid for. $100,000 could purchase him a great get away from it all experience if he wanted to take a leave term or do the UC in DC thing. He could even look into the possibility of getting a permit from Berkley and taking classes somewhere else. He an do a combination BA/MA degree and still graduate with his friends</p>

19

<p>If it were my family, I would recommend UC Berkely, because its an amazing school AND cheaper, although I wouldn't push him to finish in 3 years unless he wants to. I think it is worth more money to go to a really good private school versus a mediocore state school, butUC Berkely is first-rate. Tell him that leaves more money available for grad/professional school.</p>

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<p>What a wonderful dilemma!!!!!</p>

<p>Momof2inca,</p>

<p>I think that if you would feel good about U of Chicago even though it is more costly (and it sounds like you are leaning this way) then you should just leave the whole thing up to your son. Make it clear that you are 100% comfortable either way and let him follow his heart-- after doing an overnight at UCB.</p>

<p>Both are great schools with great aspects. I admire you keeping U of C in the mix despite the $ difference. It tells me that the intellectual fit and his happiness are so important to you, you are willing to sacrifice for him to be at the perfect place, if that would be U of C. </p>

<p>OTOH, he says he'd be happy <em>either</em> place-- so don't subtly send the message you think UCB is lesser, because it is not lesser. He might actually prefer UCB :)!</p>

<p>I am also curious about the safeties...</p>