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<p>I would challenge it except that’s not a debate I really care to dive into with someone who considers “highly intellectualized” students a negative quality in a college or university. I don’t think you know my politics.</p>
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<p>To be perfectly honest, I’m not really that interested in any particular public university’s ratio of need-based to merit-based price discounting. I am speaking in general terms about these merit-based price discount programs popping up like wildflowers at state universities, such as the Walton family funded scholars program at U of Arkansas. It is, ultimately, a zero sum game and the merit programs do mark a philosophical shift away from need based aid. Given that the purpose of a public university is widespread access, that is a trend that many in academic circles find troubling.</p>
<p>I wish briguy all the best. He sounds very thoughtful and positive and I’m sure he’ll make a careful decision between two wonderful options.</p>
<p>What I think is showing clearly in this discussion is that anticipating what your choices might be in advance is a lot harder than most kids realize. This issue shows a couple of pitfalls that kids and families might want to remember in the future:</p>
<p>1) Saving your visits until after the results come in can make for a very anxious couple of weeks. Sometimes this is the only feasible option, but it definitely has its drawbacks.</p>
<p>2) Researching A LOT about schools is very important, before spring comes. Find out more than just whether they have your programs, or if they’re “high quality.” Lots of little things will matter to you, and you can inquire and study them even without a visit. Really try to imagine yourself there, with the people, in the classrooms, everything.</p>
<p>3) Think long and hard about your safeties - you may get this kind of offer that will surprise you. If you’re over-qualified for a school, look into all of the special options that might make that school a very different experience for you than for a regular applicant. Don’t assume you’ll only go to your safety as a last resort.</p>
<p>4) Talk and think in detail about how the money questions really matter to you and your family. Maybe parents have said “Don’t worry about the money - we just want you to be happy.” But think really hard about if you could go to college for (almost) nothing. How will that affect you and your values? </p>
<p>These are standard questions that probably should be considered very seriously even before applications go in. I’m not criticizing briguy - I am very impressed with how he’s handled this whole, intense discussion. I’m saying that many of us get caught with some really big surprises when decision time comes around, that could be anticipated better, in hindsight.</p>
<p>If all goes well next year for my D, she could be looking at a full-pay at a more prestigious school or some solid merit money/honors opportunity at a “lesser” school. While we can handle full-pay, and wouldn’t deny it to her after paying fully for her older sister, she is very aware that saving money is a positive thing, and could help her later on (we don’t plan to pay for grad school if we full-pay college), and that maybe the “lesser” school might end up her favorite for various reasons. She’s seeing these choices among her peers and already is playing them out in her own mind. </p>
<p>One of the best pieces of advice we ever got was “Only apply to schools you love; then you will definitely be happy wherever you get in.” This goes along with the “Love thy safety” commandment. But I think briguy is wondering which one he would love MORE, which is a much different question. If he has always really loved both schools, and knows he’d be happy at either one, then I’m in the camp that thinks this is really a personal decision for him and his family. No one here has been able to tell him anything truly scary or wrong about either school (which he probably knew already, being the thoughtful person he is).</p>
<p>Best wishes!</p>
<p>Interesteddad: You like to twist and turn what people write when you know for a fact that was not how it was meant. </p>
<p>Truly, I have nothing against Swarthmore, but if I were briguy, your over-involvement as a parent would scare me away for sure. I’d be afraid you might be the norm.</p>
<p>Briguy go Midwestern. Parents happily wear their buckeye heads and party with the money they didn’t have to spend to get a quality Honors education!</p>
<p>“I would challenge it except that’s not a debate I really care to dive into with someone who considers “highly intellectualized” students a negative quality in a college or university. I don’t think you know my politics.”</p>
<p>Once again, you are distorting what I said. If you want a place where everyone is highly intellectualized, fine, Just don’t tell me that the place is diverse.</p>
<p>Further, I could care less about your politics. My point was that there is a certain intellectual orthodoxy at a place like Swat, and god help you if you depart from the basic tenets of that orthodoxy.</p>
<p>And it was you who said</p>
<p>“I can now add one more piece of advice. If you are concerned, as EMM1 appears to be, about sharing “the values of the chattering classes” during college, then I would suggest that Swarthmore probably isn’t the right choice.”</p>
<p>Once again, hardly a recipe for an intellectually diverse campus.</p>
<p>I’m finished trying to have a reasoned discussion about this. Believe what you want.</p>
<p>EmmyBet: Thanks for such a good post. I agree that Briguy will know what is best in the end. Best of luck to him.</p>
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<p>I dunno. I enjoyed reading Prof. James Kurth’s cover story in The American Conservative magazine on America benefitting from encouraging war between Shia and Sunni Muslims in the Middle East. </p>
<p>I don’t think he was viewed as having “a certain intellectual orthodoxy” in his very popular defense policy classes at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>[The</a> American Conservative – Splitting Islam](<a href=“http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/sep/26/00007/]The”>http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/sep/26/00007/)</p>
<p>Is anyone else surprised that a simple question of OSU vs. Swarthmore would elicit 12 pages of strong emotions?</p>
<p>“money can’t buy happiness,but it can make you awfully comfortable while you are being miserable.” –Claire Booth Luce.</p>
<p>CB stats on racial diversity. Percentages are what matter, not numbers; having X number of Black students but X*13 number of White students only encourages self-segregation–because the overall campus will still feel white.</p>
<p>OSU:
<1% American Indian
6% Asian
6% Black
3% Hispanic
81% White/unreported
4% international</p>
<p>Swarthmore:
1% American Indian
16% Asian
10% Black
12% Hispanic
54% White/unreported
7% international</p>
<p>I agree that you’ll probably find more poor people at OSU. (Anecdotally, you’d probably find a higher percentage of truly wealthy people at Swat, but that is pure conjecture.) Geographic diversity has been a point already conceded in Swarthmore’s favor. I concede that OSU probably also has more students of all different intellectual levels, including the uninterested/unintellectual–which seems to be a negative for the OP, who wants to be surrounded by as many “top students” as possible. Moreoever, I disagree with anyone who contends that racial diversity is not “significant.”</p>
<p>
This statement is NOT cardinal truth; I encourage the OP to do more research on previous CC threads to judge the numerous nuances. General summary IMO: school reputation matters more than some people think and less than others think. There’s not really any empirical way to determine an objective answer, since it is impossible for the same student to have exactly the same accomplishments at two different schools.</p>
<p>I also nth 50isthenew40’s weighting exercise–please try it!</p>
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Not at all. Why are you surprised? It’s the classic argument of free state school vs. elite LAC, made more difficult by financial aid (rather than full-pay) at the LAC. Two very different experiences–Honors Colleges are a powerful positive catalyst on a university experience, but I’ve yet to find one that successfully replicates an LAC experience.</p>
<p>keilexandra notes,"Quote:
Originally Posted by taxguy
Given the same scores and grades, it will be just as easy or hard to get into a top law or medical school from OSU as it is from Swarthmore. </p>
<p>This statement is NOT cardinal truth; I encourage the OP to do more research on previous CC threads to judge the numerous nuances. General summary IMO: school reputation matters more than some people think and less than others think. There’s not really any empirical way to determine an objective answer, since it is impossible for the same student to have exactly the same accomplishments at two different schools.</p>
<p>Response: Oh, how many law school admission officers have you spoken with and know? I have spoken with seveal who ALL have noted that law school admission is based on GPA and LSAT and NOT on school name. In some cases, they do subsribe to a program that rates each school regarding grade inflation /deflation but not based on school name per se.</p>
<p>The other point that needs to be reiterated is that the OP is far more likely to excel at OSU than at Swarthmore, with a concomitant impact on post-graduate opportunities.</p>
<p>Swarthmore has an extremely bright, intellectual, liberal, gay friendly and diverse student body. To graduate with honors or at the top of ones class will require a genuine devotion to study and you may often be tired.
These are serious scholars, it has been often said that Swarthmore’s rigor is on par with most graduate schools. If being in that environment is your cup of tea, it is amazing! </p>
<p>If you want the opportunity to receive individual attention from your professors and deans, it cannot be topped. It has an absolutely beautiful and well-maintained campus with fairly nice dorms and decent food.</p>
<p>I don’t know a thing about OSU but I doubt that the two places have much in common. Visit and then decide. Good luck.</p>
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I find it hard to believe that Swarthmore isn’t rated as a school with grade deflation based on the fact that it is, indeed, called “Swarthmore College.”</p>
<p>My opinion is based on research, not anecdotal conversations. I thus encouraged the OP to do his own research. I agree with you, in fact, that law school admission is “based on” GPA and LSAT rather than school name, as much as subjective admissions can be “based on” any limited set of factors; I disagree that school name is entirely irrelevant. The presence of a grade “scale” rating system would imply that school name–though not necessarily general prestige–is one relevant factor.</p>
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How would you define “excel”? If you mean simply a high GPA, then I agree. But I would also contend that the OP is “far more likely” to receive an intellectually challenging education at Swarthmore than at OSU. I am NOT saying that an intellectually challenging education is impossible at OSU, just as it is not impossible to earn a high GPA at Swarthmore.</p>
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<p>‘It’s not so bad’ is not a valid argument. How about no debt and someone using those 10 years to save money to purchase their first house (for example). </p>
<p>Keilexandra,</p>
<p>Thanks for posting the diversity numbers. I didn’t follow how that applicable to the concerns of the O.P. but Swarthmore having double digit percentage enrollment of both African-American and Hispanic students is quite impressive. I don’t think many schools in the nation pull that off. </p>
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<p>I like how ‘merit scholarships’ become “merit-based price discount programs.” Talk about piled higher and deeper. What major state universities have not had merit scholarships to offer students for less than half a century? As to this “zero sum game” jazz - many influential donors tag their financial contributions based on what they wish to support. Thus money earmarked for a building campaign does not mean that the donor would give dollar one to the general fund nor does it mean that a donor that wants to offer a merit scholarship would give dollar one for need-based aid. One does not necessarily take from the other.</p>
<p>^I think the “not so bad” argument is based on the assumption that the OP is a better “fit” for Swarthmore than for OSU. If in fact they are equal “fits”–that is, the OP would still be agonizing if Swarthmore was free–then it makes sense to just pick the cheapest option. But it’s hard, some would say impossible, to quantify experience, a key component of what the LACs are selling beyond academics.</p>
<p>30k of debt for 4 years of “experience” rated an 8 rather than a 5 on a 1-10 scale, for example–worth it or not? If a young professional doesn’t pay off this debt, will they actually save the corresponding amount for a down payment? While I would like to believe in optimism, realistically the extra discretionary cash will most likely be used to upgrade lifestyle.</p>
<p>The diversity numbers were cited in response to taxguy’s assertion that OSU is more diverse than Swarthmore on every measure except geographic. This is patently false with regard to racial diversity.</p>
<p>On merit scholarships–UVA and UNC are the only two public universities in the nation to meet full need for ALL students. Coincidental that their merit scholarships are also quite limited? (Other than endowed full rides, I’m hard-pressed to think of any merit aid offered, though I welcome corrections on this point.)</p>
<p>“How would you define “excel”? If you mean simply a high GPA, then I agree.”</p>
<p>In this context (post graduate opportunities) high GPA, rather than the amorphous quality of the experience, is what matters.</p>
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Graduate school admissions committees aren’t ignorant. The Swat undergrad will be highly regarded.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see data on GPA vs. postgraduate opportunities for both schools. I am curious about how much Swarthmore’s “grade deflation” reputation helps; I suspect, as always, that it’s less than some students hope but more than outsiders expect.</p>
<p>E.g., 3.8 GPA at OSU vs. a 3.7 GPA at Swarthmore: if I had to pick, I’d view the two GPAs are essentially equal and Swarthmore’s rigor would tip the scale. I believe a 3.7 is around top 10% at Swat (ID?). And the OP should not expect to get a 4.0 GPA at OSU, especially if s/he chooses the academically challenging path to graduation (which, unfortunately, does not always correlate with intellectually satisfying).</p>
<p>“Swarthmore having double digit percentage enrollment of both African-American and Hispanic students is quite impressive. I don’t think many schools in the nation pull that off.”</p>
<p>Not functionally different than (for example) Williams and Wesleyan. Just depends on how far you are willing to reach down into your pool in order to hit a number.</p>
<p>Swarthmore:
10% Black
12% Hispanic
16% Asian
87% top decile
SAT CR 670-760
SAT M 670-770
SAT W 760-760</p>
<p>Williams:
10% Black
10% Hispanic
13% Asian
88% top decile
SAT CR 660-770
SAT M 650-760
SAT W N/A</p>
<p>Wesleyan:
9% Black
9% Hispanic
11% Asian
70% top decile
SAT CR 640-750
SAT M 650-750
SAT W 640-740</p>
<p>So (on an extremely simplistic level), Swarthmore trades 10 points on the 75th CR percentile for 2% more Hispanic students. Swarthmore also has significantly more Asian students, but that doesn’t usually impact SAT ranges. In terms of stats, very simplistically again, Wesleyan is a small step down from Swarthmore and Williams.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what you mean by “not functionally different.” Swarthmore’s exceptional racial diversity leads to a functionally different experience. I suspect you may be referring to applicant pools; if–I really have no idea–Swarthmore does get more ALANA applicants, it is due to recruitment efforts such as Discover Swarthmore (the Williams equivalent, Window on Williams, is not typically extended to Asian students).</p>