<p>My D has visited Swarthmore and likes it very much. Her test scores, grades, etc. make her competitive for acceptance. She has visited only one other LAC and will be unable to visit any others before application deadlines. What other LACs do Swarthmore students (or their parents) believe would have been good fits had they not chosen Swarthmore?</p>
<p>From what I heard, Pomona is supposed to be somewhat similar to Swarthmore.
Haverford and Bryn Mawr are in Tri-Co, so their students can take classes at Swarthmore, and they are easier to get into.</p>
<p>Wesleyan, Amherst.....Wesleyan is very intellectual. Reed.</p>
<p>Williams if you don't mind the rural but beautiful Berkshires location. In terms of opportunity, you'd find that at Williams. Oberlin, Kenyon. </p>
<p>Whitman if you are into the Quaker culture...and chose Swarthmore because of it.</p>
<p>Your question is more complex than it might appear, because there are so many different factors that contribute to a school's signature style. So, trying to pick comparable matches requires knowing what attracted your daughter to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>You might have a school that is academically rigorous, but preppy, sports-oriented, and with a heavy drinking scene that really isn't very much like Swarthmore. Or a school that is similar to Swarthmore in overall style, but lacks Swarthmore's huge per student endowment. Or schools that have Swat's huge per student endowment and excellent academics, but that are culturally ver different or in a different part of the country.</p>
<p>If you key on the small academically-oriented schools as a starting point, the following list may help identify some possibilities. This list shows all colleges and universities that graduated 7500 or fewer seniors over a recent 10 year period ('89 - '98 from the IPEDS database) sorted by the percentage of those seniors who got a PhD. over a matching 10 year period ('94 -'03 from the NSF database).</p>
<p>The list shows the size of the average graduating class and the percentage of each class that went on to receive a PhD or comparable academic degree:</p>
<p>206 California Institute of Technology 35.8%
134 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%
366 Swarthmore College 21.1%
260 Reed College 19.9%
456 Carleton College 16.8%
288 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%
707 Oberlin College 15.7%
323 Grinnell College 14.1%
277 Haverford College 13.8%
358 Pomona College 13.8%
643 Rice University 13.1%
508 Williams College 12.7%
418 Amherst College 12.4%
257 Kalamazoo College 11.3%
708 Wesleyan University 11.0%
164 St John's College (both campus) 10.6%
584 Wellesley College 10.4%
241 Earlham College 10.0%
231 Beloit College 9.6%
260 Lawrence University 9.5%
395 Macalester College 9.3%
374 Bowdoin College 9.0%
494 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%
716 Smith College 8.9%
570 Vassar College 8.8%
675 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%
690 St Olaf College 8.7%
204 Hendrix College 8.7%
236 Hampshire College 8.6%
492 Trinity University 8.5%
220 Knox College 8.5%
382 Occidental College 8.4%
385 College of Wooster 8.3%
554 Barnard College 8.3%
100 Bennington College 8.2%
287 Whitman College 8.0%
136 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%
699 Brandeis University 7.7%
175 Wabash College 7.5%
411 Bates College 7.5%
377 Davidson College 7.5%</p>
<p>A few of these (like Rice) are small universities. Others (CalTech and Harvey Mudd) are tech schools. Otherwise, this is a pretty good starting point for identifying LACs that are notable for their academics. Some are similar to Swarthmore, others are not.</p>
<p>For example, in terms of academically oriented LACs with the largest per student endowments the list is: Grinnell, Pomona, Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst.</p>
<p>Bryn Mawr and Haverford are very similar to Swarthmore in terms of academics, location, and Quaker roots, but Bryn Mawr is all-female and Haverford has more "male" traditions with somewhat more drinking than either Bryn Mawr or Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Reed is VERY academically oriented, but located in the Pacific Northwest and more "crunchy, hippie" than Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Earlham shares the academic orientation, tight community, and Quaker roots with Swarthmore, but does not have the admissions selectivity or per student endowment.</p>
<p>And, so on and so forth down the list.</p>
<p>I think that it's very difficult to compare schools simply based upon the fact that they are small LACs. My s visited Williams and didn't feel that he clicked with the predominant student culture there, while he felt more at home with the students from Swarthmore and MIT, which obviously, on the surface, are very different places.</p>
<p>Please tell us more about your D...her interests, possible majors, how much she enjoys studying and learning, is she intellectual, is she sportsy, etc.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments. The other school we have visited was Davidson. From what I have read, the school that seems like it might be most similar to Swarthmore is Carleton. Is anyone familiar with both?</p>
<p>Also, my daughter thinks that she wants to major in Physics. On paper, Swarthmore, Carleton and Davidson seem to have stong physical science programs. Are there other LACs that may be better in this area?</p>
<p>Andi,</p>
<p>I'm not surprised. Swarthmore and MIT are very different in many aspects. However, they are very similar in terms of rigorous academics and the type of students who choose a college knowing full well that they will have to take their academics seriously. I suspect that there is a great deal of similarity in terms of personality types at the two schools.</p>
<p>It is precisely that characteristic that the PhD productivity lists do a reasonable job of identifying. It's no coincidence that both Swarthmore (21%) and MIT (18%) are in the top-five per capita PhD producers of all colleges and universities in the country.</p>
<p>Interesteddad Yes, I do think that the students are somewhat similar. The comparison to the PhD stats is interesting. </p>
<p>Invirginia, I think that Davidson and Carleton may be similar to Swat on paper, but I think that they have different student cultures. I have to believe that Carleton would be more like Swat than Davidson though, which is somewhat more conservative. </p>
<p>S found the facilities and course listings at Williams very impressive, but the sports culture was overwhelming to him. The back of the Williams course catalog lists pages of sports awards.<br>
However, invirginia, if your d is athletic, she might like it there. Bowdoin is another one similar to that.</p>
<p>The comparison between Swarthmore and Williams highlights what we are really talking about when we describe colleges.</p>
<p>Williams has students who would be "typical" Swarthmore students -- academically oriented, a little geeky, moderate drinkers, etc. Swarthmore has students who would be "typical" Williams students -- athletic, preppy, heavier drinkers.</p>
<p>The reason they two schools have such different "cultures" is the proportion of each type in the student body. The preppy, athletic, party crowd is the minority at Swarthmore. The geeky academic types are the minority at Williams.</p>
<p>I can imagine that some might think it 'stereotyping' or just plain 'out there' to compare schools like that, but for us, the contrast between the two was striking. I kept my mouth shut until s had given me all of his impressions of W at the tour and info session, but we had exactly the same reaction. I was relieved when he said 'I just can't see myself fitting in here. I know I'd find friends with common interests, but I'd feel like an outsider.' I could SEE just from listening and observing that he wasn't a Wattie- or whatever they call Williams students. :) And despite that, we both thought that W was thoroughly impressive, so this is in no way a value judgement.</p>
<p>My impression is that Williams is very, very strong in physics and may well have the best physics program of any Lac. Amherst and Carleton are also supposed to have good physics dept along with Oberlin, Smith and Wes. Although its not a LAC, Chicago has some of a lacs qualities and has a great physics dept...we visited and were really impressed with the unversity.
Bowdoin is also supposed to be good in "natural sciences." </p>
<p>My concerns about Swarthmore are, according to a fellow cc'r, research opportunities in physics are lacking for all but seniors, and the amount of studying/stress plus grade deflation. (In fairness, our D is very keen on both physics and Swarthmore and does not share my concerns!)</p>
<p>Again, thanks to all who have replied. At this point in the process, my D thinks that she wants to go to an LAC, and as I noted before, likes Swarthmore very much. (And so do her parents.) Carleton, Williams, Wesleyan, and most of the other schools mentioned above, are all also very difficult to get into. Again, assuming that her credentials make her competitive at Swarthmore, et al., as we know not every highly qualified applicant who applies will be admitted. Which LACs would any of you recommend as less competitive but still appropriate for someone who likes what Swarthmore represents?</p>
<p>Less selective option could be Hamilton College</p>
<p>
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My impression is that Williams is very, very strong in physics and may well have the best physics program of any Lac.
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</p>
<p>I'm sure that physics is excellent at Williams, but I don't know why it would be considered the "best". Here is the PhD production list over the most recent 10 year period for Physics/Astronomy. This data is particularly meaningful in a field like Physics where most serious career paths include doctoral study:</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 96
2 Harvey Mudd College 64
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 29
4 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 20
5 Reed College 13
6 Carleton College 13
7 Princeton University 13
8 University of Chicago 13
9 Rice University 13
10 Case Western Reserve University 9
11 Harvard University 9
12 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 9
13 Swarthmore College 9
14 Haverford College 8
15 Stevens Institute of Technology 8
16 Whitman College 8
17 Grinnell College 7
18 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 7
19 Colorado School of Mines 7
20 Yale University 6
21 Williams College 6
22 University of Rochester 6
23 Amherst College 6
24 Goshen College 5
25 Cornell University, All Campuses 5
26 University of Dallas 5
27 Wabash College 5
28 Stanford University 5
29 Beloit College 5
30 University of California-Berkeley 5
31 Carnegie Mellon University 5
32 Johns Hopkins University 5
33 Hastings College 5
34 Lawrence University 5
35 Illinois Institute of Technology 5
36 Columbia University in the City of New York 4
37 Oberlin College 4
38 Monmouth College 4
39 Bryn Mawr College 4
40 Gustavus Adolphus College 4
41 Kalamazoo College 4
42 College of William and Mary 4
43 Earlham College 4
44 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4
45 Pomona College 4
46 St Olaf College 4
47 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus 4
48 Rhodes College 4</p>
<p>I think Grinnell is similar, but less competitive to get into. They also give lots of merit aid.</p>
<p>Pomona & Harvey Mudd share the same campus so the physics resources available there should be extensive. HM has a significantly greater acceptance rate than Swat or Pomona, but I suspect that HM experiences even greater self selection. Pomona students have the rep of being some of the happiest on the planet (confirmed by several of son's friends from high school). I've heard Reed compared to Swat thusly, Reedies wear more black and smoke more cigarettes. Reed is so insular (if that's the word) that they have no intercollegiate athletics at all. Throw away fact of the day: Reed's most noted alum is Steve Jobs.</p>
<p>HM's significantly greater acceptance rate is due to self-selection, but it might be less selective for girls, since there are so few of them applying. I am sure it is a great school for physics, but non-math&science options might be pretty limited.</p>
<p>"Reed's most noted alum is Steve Jobs" - that's true, even though he dropped out...</p>
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Which LACs would any of you recommend as less competitive but still appropriate for someone who likes what Swarthmore represents?
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</p>
<p>I think the two most similar schools to Swarthmore are probably the other two Phila suburb Quaker schools: Bryn Mawr and Haverford. </p>
<p>Others that share some characteristics would include Reed, Oberlin, Grinnell, Wesleyan, Smith, Vassar, Barnard, and Earlham.</p>
<p>Obviously, Pomona, Williams, and Amherst have a lot of similarities academically, but are not less selective options. Likewise, I don't believe Harvey Mudd is less selective than Swarthmore, despite its somewhat misleading acceptance rate.</p>