<p>^ Darn. We should google up some proof too huh.</p>
<p>It is a major problem for those who are affected by it. How it impacts the economy and job market as a whole is more open for debate. Even that link you posted earlier from science.house.gov stated that there isn’t any real data to support either side at this point. The only thing we know is that it is happening, it is accelerating, and it affects the IT sector the most. The greater economic impact is still not known.</p>
<p>Most peoples’ careers in CS fields are also short lived due to ramapant age discrimination, which is fueled by the H1B visa program. As a result, unless one moves into management or works for the govt./ defense industry, they will be dumped and replaced with a younger worker. And when they go to apply for new jobs, nobody is going to hire them.</p>
<p>Hmmm, well to deny that many foreigners were hired and didn’t affect American wages over the last decade would be akin to sticking one’s head in the sand. I’m not saying they aren’t needed but I just don’t find the majority have the same entrepreneurial spirit and American common sense and business savvy. American workers don’t get dumped because of age or skills more than subtle racism of people supporting their own. It’s part of the ugly truth people don’t want to touch and yet was allowed to occur through unscrupulous means.</p>
<p>The innovative spirit of SV has been quite stagnant for the last decade comparatively speaking. Many come here now with there fancy degrees but just don’t produce as much and just see it as a job and can be annoying careerist cretins. Many businesses don’t want to doll out the dollars for quality managers and engineers so they eventually suffer under feckless management and a lack in innovation when not kept in check. People like to say SV allows risk and failure but there wasn’t incentive for people to overcome failure as much as conforming to the business as usual status quo, mediocrity and the bandwagon effect.</p>
<pre><code>There are a decent number of Chem and Civ Engineering positions in SV but more so in other parts of the bay and California. I tend to think geek speak like ‘software engineering’ is a bit silly since you either know how to code and get results that are measurable and marketable to businesses and/or consumers or don’t. You could be the greatest coder in the world but if can’t apply, sell, or implement it how would it’s value be measured then?
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<p>Over the past decade, there also were a lot of Star Trek style Sillycon Valley Web 2.0 theories that were nonsensical, frivolous, and lead nowhere but created a whole bunch of misguided hype.</p>
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<p>I didn’t mean to imply that this had occurred. However, even if the wages have been kept somewhat lower than they would otherwise have been, I still don’t see many (read: any) software engineers that are really hurting for money. It is still a profession that nets one a good income.</p>
<p>When you say ‘software engineer’ do you mean a Software…programmer, developer, or Systems Analyst or? Just because someone takes an extra math, science, management, or architect class I don’t think qualifies creating, debugging, or bringing to market a software product as ‘engineering’. That term was developed in the 60’s more for marketing than being taken seriously for a long time. There is so much title glorification and obfuscating in the computer and business world now, I think there is more focus of control placed on semantic infiltration over actually producing something practical. ‘Software Engineer’ just comes across as rather self absorbed narcissism and sounding more important than titles that better describe what such a person actually does. I know people who do mundane software testing and QC work yet have the title of Software Engineer. Why not just start calling game testers a more euphemistic title like New Media Engineers at that point?</p>
<p>So now we are arguing semantics in this thread?</p>
<p>I simply asked for your definition for clarification purposes. I here that term thrown around more these days and am making the claim that Software “Engineer” is more of a euphemism and semantic infiltration in regards to some glorified bunk title over meaning anything of substance yes. Just because some CS person took a Project Management class or needs to have some idea of a software life cycle does not warrant IMO as an “Engineer”. That would be closer to what I call Business Information Systems or Business Analyst type role. Plus economics is more theoretical than can ever be considered to qualify as scientific and knowing a lil more math does not entail that the person is a scientist or engineer.</p>
<p>I don’t honestly have an opinion or definition of engineering when it comes to software. I am guilty of, in this case, using it as a blanket term. My background is mechanical and aerospace engineering, so I am far from an expert on the software/IT/computer side of things. I can program in Matlab, VB and some Python and Fortran and that is about it. haha</p>
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<p>You ARE doing the definition of software engineering…even though you are in mechanical and aerospace engineering.</p>
<p>All of the defense companies (Boeing, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, CSC, Lockheed) use a similar “systems engineering” approach for producing a “system”.</p>
<p>It’s just that software groups tailor the “systems engineering methodology” to produce a SOFTWARE system…that’s all.</p>
<p>Analysis–>Design–>Development–>Test/Verification–>Implementation–>Sustainment</p>
<p>Ah yes the scientific methodology angle proposed by software developers and analysts to qualify as ‘engineers’. Sorry I don’t buy it and find it more in self interest from such people to be taken more seriously to apply the title of Software Engineer onto themselves.
I consider Mechanical and Aerospace to be legit Engineering in a college curriculum even if the person is not technically an ‘Engineer’ in the workforce. Even though SE has been recently approved as a legit degree under CS departments, there still are way too many contingent factors and inconsistencies for me at least to accept it as ‘Engineering’. It’s about a legit to me as a college marketing there BS (sic) in Management Science(which was just called Operations Research for years) degrees so one can claim that they are a Decision Scientist. I cannot help but find amusing the great lengths people go to in attempting to prove some (un)scientific legitimacy in one’s giving field to make it sound more interesting by decorating with a fancy new dress. I don’t care if one agrees with me or not but I am more impressed with what a person is capable of producing instead of oooooohhhhing and aaaaaaahhhhhhing over some invented title. I consider a Sanitary Engineer more of a Engineer and actual Scientist than any self promoting business or software guy.</p>
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the pudding is rotten.</p>
<p>In my personal experience as a computer programmer at a fortune 100 insurance for over 20 years I have seen major outsourcing to India in the last two years (and beyond). Thousand of American IT workers, analysts, developers lost their job to thousands of Indian IT workers, analysts and developers.</p>
<p>At least one thing that is egregious about this is that it is in violation of the spirit and letter of the H1b visa policy and terms which is to allow foreign workers to have AMerican job AS LONG AS American citizens’ jobs are not lost. It was designed for the alleged dearth of hi tech personel that are so highly skilled that there was a real shortage in America. But what occurred is that companies just replaced virtually the whole IT shop except for a few overseers/laison types, and thus replaced american jobs where there was not a shortage. corporations do this because the US gov’t does not oversee and enforce consequences to the corporations. THey do this because they can do it.</p>
<p>My company is doing what ALL the other companies are doing , have been doing, and will keep doing , until it does not make economic sense. IF the the US gov’t would enforce the spirit and letter of the current H1b visa law, it might add sufficient impediments to doing this kind of operation. </p>
<p>However, the US is aiding and abetting this behaviour by not following up. There is even more to the story than H1b visa violation, I bet , since the numbers are so huge in the fortune 100 shops, even more than 86k x 6. I bet there are some kind of free trade / mutual treaties or something w/ india and china.</p>
<p>I am only commenting on the IT computer systems industry from what I have directly seen and from what my many contacts in similar companies have seen. I am not commenting on other engineeringSTEM areas since I do nt know about those segments.</p>
<p>something is rotten in the state of america today.</p>
<p>If they can do the quality of work demanded for a lower price then the companies are doing the right thing outsourcing the work, at least in a business/economic sense. I do believe the companies do need to make more ethical considerations in these cases, but when they operate in a capitalistic system that pretty much requires them to put the profit motive first, you can’t really blame them for the decision to make the smarter economic choice.</p>
<p>Generally speaking free trade makes everyone better off due to the principle of comparative advantage. What’s happening here is that in the transition from restrictive trade to free trade there are going to be casualities, mainly the US workers whose skill sets can be easily replaced. In the long run, our economy as a whole is going to be better off, which theoretically should make our society as a whole better off. But that does not mean every individual in society is going to be better off. </p>
<p>In times like this the only way to stay safe is to develop highly specialized skills that are in demand and then continue to update those skills. Those who don’t are going to be replaced by those who are willing to do the work for cheaper, and that’s just the reality of it, be it right or wrong.</p>
<p>wow, do you actually believe this sort of Utopian historical revisionism and theoretical clap trap you spout? Talk about a mountain of conceptual assumptions with little actual experiential knowledge never mind a denial of accumulating evidence to the counter of nearly every point you touched. After your job gets outsourced you should consider becoming High Priest of the Cult of Ayn Rand and am sure they would love to talk with you.</p>
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<p>You can consider whatever you want that classifies as engineering.</p>
<p>I’ll take the supply/demand/income and keep it moving.</p>
<p>:-)</p>
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<p>Me too.</p>
<p>“Generally speaking free trade makes everyone better off due to the principle of comparative advantage.”</p>
<p>How does free trade make people in places like the Rust Belt better off? Know what the average home price in Detroit is? $11,000. Not $111,000, but ELEVEN thousand. </p>
<p>“In the long run, our economy as a whole is going to be better off, which theoretically should make our society as a whole better off.”</p>
<p>How? Be specific.</p>
<p>I am closing this thread. It has gone the way of others on a similar topic, degenerating… and astray from the original question.</p>