computer industry

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>i like working with computers (programming, designing, gaming... you name it), but when it comes to me having anything to do with the computer industry in the future, my mom is totally closed-minded. She says stuff like out-sourcing to India has totally killed the industry and making most computer skills obsolete. She also always brings up these sketchy anecdotes about how her cousin's friend's ex-roomate once had a 150k job working for Microsoft then got laid off and is now working at McDonalds.</p>

<p>For me, I'm an Electrical Engineer so I argue that computers are pertinant to the everyday-life of an engineer, but she says these skills will be obsolete in the future. Also, I feel her generalization is rash because I don't think out-sourcing is that prominent if your company isn't nation-wide.</p>

<p>To her, the only viable option for the future is owning your own business because you don't get laid off and making less than 60k is setting yourself up for harsh living conditions (she actually said this). When I want to learn something, she always interrogates me on will this help THEIR business and not what will help in the long run (they own a sewing machines distributor btw).</p>

<p>All cliches aside ("you should do what you love, etc etc..."), does anyone having any enlightened take on this (sources would be nice too), or is my mom pretty much right?</p>

<p>Thanks for the input in advance.</p>

2

<p>Well, according to 2005's Occupational Outlook Handbook published by the U.S. Department of Labor, outsourcing is a problem currently facing the engineering profession, however "despite this, overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good because the number of engineering graduates should be in rough balance with the number of job openings over this period. Expected changes in employment and, thus, job opportunities vary by specialty."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>"or is my mom pretty much right?"</p>

<p>I think she's pretty much right. Why would our own parents lie to us? I hear the same thing from my parents and uncles.....one is a professor at ucla, so I'm sure they know what's going on.</p>

4

<p>"Why would our own parents lie to us?"
It's called misinformation, or ignorance. Quit trying to terrorize people.</p>

5

<p>You have good chances of finding a decent job in either major, and like with any field the technology will become obslete. That is why you must continually refresh yourself on the current technology in the field and how to use it. This espically important in computer engineering because computers, chips, and programs tend to change almost every month. As for the 60,000 dollar comment I know lots people who are perfectly happy living on that amount and many who whish they could make that much (some are even college graduates). If you like engineering then do it. This is exactly what I'm doing and love it. I would love to do it even if it didn't pay this much. Finally your mom is technally right you can't get laid off at a business. But that busness could go bankrupt, be taken over or shut down by the goverment, and numerous things. Running a business is a lot hader than "OK lets buy a shop and sell stuff". There are LOADS of tax forms workmans comp, social security, and many others forms and risks. There always bee a need for people to design and create new things which is what engineers do. I personally would go for the engineering degree if that's what enjoy doing. And in my opinion it is alot easier than running a business.</p>

6

<p>When you consider the fact that the average starting salary for college graduates (for all bachelor's degree holders from all schools across the country) is something in the 30's, then I would say that yes, there are plenty of recent graduates who would LOVE to be making 60k. </p>

<p>Check out the average starting salaries for an elite school like Princeton. Notice how most of them don't make 60k. Go tell a Princeton Art&Archaeology student that 60k isn't enough money, see what he says. </p>

<p>Finally you say that small-business ownership is the way to go because it is immune to outsourcing or technological obsolescence. Oh really? Tell that to all the people who used to own and run garment factories in New England and New York. New York City used to have the largest garment industry and the most garment factories of any city in the world. Not anymore - all that work either moved to the Southern US or (more likely) went overseas to Latin America or Asia. I know people who used to own small businesses that made or catered to the industrial machinery industry, yet these businesses failed as much of that work was moved to Asia. </p>

<p>As an entrepreneur, you constantly have to change to meet new business challenges, or you will fail. For example, anybody who's involved in manufacturing has to meet the new challenge of China. A few months ago, Businessweek ran a front-cover article about the power of the "China Price" - how customers of manufactured goods would give their suppliers an ultimatum of either giving them the "China price" (what an equivalent product would cost from a Chinese manufacturer, which is often times more than a 50% price cut) or else lose them as a customer. You either adapt or you're out of business. It's not just manufacturing. I know a women who ran a very successful travel agency - until the rise of online travel websites like Expedia and Travelocity. She's been able to adapt, but she doesn't make anything like what she used to make. Basically, those websites have taken away a lot of her best customers.</p>

<p>Look, the goal of college is not to learn a specific skill that you are then going to use for the rest of your life. This is not vocational school you're going to. This is college. I can tell you right now that any technological skill you learn today in college is going to be obsolete in a decade, if not sooner. Any technological skill. You go to college to learn how to think and adapt, so you can quickly pick up the new skills that will help you in the future (whatever those skills happen to be). In 20 years, there will probably be some new superhot field to get into. But nobody knows what that is going to be. With a proper education, you will have a body of general knowledge and the mental agility to enter and succeed in that field quicker than somebody without a proper education. </p>

<p><a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/data/surveys/CareerSurveyReport2004.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/data/surveys/CareerSurveyReport2004.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>However, also notice that the highest paid people from Princeton are in fact the computer science graduates. Nor is this a Princeton-only phenomemon. Consider the data from Berkeley and MIT. Notice how, once again, the highest salaries tend to be paid to the CS/EECS graduates.</p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2003Majors.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2003Majors.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/salary/04bycourse.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/salary/04bycourse.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So when people complain about the impact of outsourcing on computer science and how that means that people shouldn't go and study CS, I have to ask, well, what's the alternative? Would you rather be a Art/Archaeology student at Princeton? Would you rather go to MIT to study Braind/CognitiveSciences (which is basically MIT's version of Psychology)? Would you rather study the History of Art at Berkeley?</p>

7

<p>Can't help but add Carnegie Mellon's starting salaries for computer science undergrads after seeing MIT's:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/career/scs/statistics.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/career/scs/statistics.html&lt;/a> :D</p>

<p>I also just posted an article on outsourcing from The Economist on the Parent's forum that might be interesting.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=75942%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=75942&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The facts don't seem as bad as the hype.</p>

8

<p>It vaguely annoys me that the MIT Careers Office posts those averages when so few people respond. I mean, really. Those numbers are sketchy.</p>

9

<p>"...I have to ask, well, what's the alternative? "</p>

<p>Well, medical schools are a good alternative to computer science. They take a little longer, but are stable, extremely high paying and non-outsourceable. </p>

<p>Doctors can pay down debt in no time, and within a few years into practice can earn anywhere between $150k to $500k per year depending on speciality.</p>

<p>Another good thing about medicine is that there is a lot of analysis and cognitive work to be done....something that will attract the bright computer scientists. Tracking down medical problems can be quite challenging and rewarding.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Well, medical schools are a good alternative to computer science. They take a little longer, but are stable, extremely high paying and non-outsourceable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, except for the EXTREME problem that there's no guarantee that you'll get into medical school. According to the AAMC, about half of all people who apply to med-school get rejected from every single med-school they apply to. Yep, every single one. And that's just talking about those who apply. Plenty of people try the premed path but such bad grades that they know they're not going to get in, so they don't even apply. Generally, those people who apply to med-school are the stronger students, and yet even a large percentage of them don't manage to get in. </p>

<p>
[quote]
They take a little longer, but are stable, extremely high paying and non-outsourceable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A "little" longer? Really? You call 4 years of med-school, a year of internship, then 3-5 years of residency just a 'little'? </p>

<p>Are they extremely high paying? Again, I would argue that if all you care about is money, then go to investment banking or its sister fields like hedge funds or venture capital. You can make far more money doing that than you ever could as a doctor. </p>

<p>And you really don't think medicine is outsourceable? So what is this I see in the following articles? If medicine is not outsourceable, apparently somebody forgot to tell these people about it. </p>

<p>"India has always lured its fair share of tourists, drawn to the country's awe-inspiring temples, breathtaking scenery and rich culture. But a relatively new attraction is gaining ground on the travel scene - medical tourism. </p>

<p>India has the potential to welcome over a million medical tourists annually, says the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII). Should this aim become a reality, a study by the CII released this month says medical tourists could enrich India's economy by US$5 billion...The CII study estimated that "heart surgery in the US costs $30,000, while it costs $6,000 in India. Bone marrow transplants cost $250,000, while they are $26,000 in India." Figures vary, but a general rule of thumb puts the difference in costs of services in the West at one-fifth to one-tenth. It is this disparity on which India is trying to capitalize. </p>

<p>India can be the medical tourism capital of the world," Pritam Pandya, director of FICCI (Western India region) told Asia Times Online. He says India's advantages include the prevalence of English speakers, highly qualified medical professionals and diverse tourism options"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FH31Df04.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FH31Df04.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"India is promoting the "high-tech healing" of its private healthcare sector as a tourist attraction. </p>

<p>The government hopes to encourage a budding trade in medical tourism, selling foreigners the idea of travelling to India for low-cost but world-class medical treatment. </p>

<p>Naresh Trehan, executive director of Escorts Heart Institute and Research Centre, a leading private healthcare provider, says India has established world-class expertise in practices such as cardiac care, cosmetic surgery, joint replacements and dentistry. </p>

<p>Merging medical expertise and tourism became government policy when finance minister Jaswant Singh, in this year's budget, called for India to become a "global health destination". </p>

<p>If foreigners respond, a new medical tourism industry could be generating revenues of Rs100bn ($2.1bn, €1.9bn, £1.3bn) by 2012, according to a report by McKinsey Consultants and the Confederation of Indian Industry, a business group. "</p>

<p><a href="http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2016%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2016&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So, explain to me again how medicine is not outsourceable?</p>

11

<p>"Well, medical schools are a good alternative to computer science. They take a little longer, but are stable, extremely high paying and non-outsourceable. </p>

<p>Doctors can pay down debt in no time, and within a few years into practice can earn anywhere between $150k to $500k per year depending on speciality.</p>

<p>Another good thing about medicine is that there is a lot of analysis and cognitive work to be done....something that will attract the bright computer scientists. Tracking down medical problems can be quite challenging and rewarding."</p>

<p>Well... golubb's post is bookended quite nicely... his first and last remarks I'll agree with for the most part.<br>
But not entirely.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>They don't "take a little longer"... they take four full years longer. Four years that you COULD be making almost 50K per year as a computer science major, but will rather instead take on 20 to 25K a year of debt. At the end of four years, this runs you nearly 300K behind where you could have been if you had gone to work straight out of undergrad with a degree in CS.</p></li>
<li><p>"Doctors can pay down debt in no time, and within a few years into practice can earn anywhere between $150k to $500k per year depending on speciality." - This is by far and away the most inaccurate statement in this post. Yes, doctors could easily pay down a 20 grand debt "in no time", and to many other people, a 20 grand debt is VERY significant. Sadly for doctors, you'll have a lot more than 20 grand to pay down. If you have loans out from your undergraduate degree that have been allowed to accrue interest over a FULL FOUR YEARS that you spent not paying them off, and then you add on top of that 80K - 100K of loans brought on by Med School, it will take you MANY years to pay down the kind of debt you will have coming out of medical school. And no, you will not make anywhere from "150 - 500K per year". This is a gross exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say that "you will make anywhere from 120-180K per year before specialization, and roughly 180 - 280K per year after (and depending upon) specialization. And, if you're EXTREMELY TALENTED as a doctor, just as if you're extremely talented as an engineer, lawyer, businessman, IB'er, ect. you can make an AWFUL lot of money, upwards of 500K. BUT THIS IS NOT NORMAL, and happens to the extremely select few.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>That would be a far more accurate representation of the truth.</p>

<p>Everything else is spot-on. Medicine would be a very rewarding profession. You can make very good money while helping others all day long. But don't let golubb's gross exaggerations fool you as to just how amazing it really is.</p>

12

<p>Outsourcing is an issue, but as someone currently in the software development field, let me say this:</p>

<p>The most technologically-advanced software is still (and will be) produced domestically by the most talented individuals available. Things like device drivers or user interfaces for custom hardware devices and other software-related issues ARE moving to India to some degree. But it's going to be a very long time before you see Microsoft or Sun or Google toss their development teams and set up shop in New Delhi, if ever.</p>

<p>The so-called "programmers" of the Dot-Com boom and the "programmers" who know how to write for Flash or make a simple ASP web page are going to get hurt. It's not a good thing. But if you come out with a degree in computer science from a good school, and you stay current with the technology/languages, then you will find work.</p>

<p>It doesn't matter what the speed of today's chips are, it doesn't matter what size the hard drives are in the latest Dell -- we could hit the "theoretical maximums" tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. There will still be a need -- with everything that already exists -- for new or better software. Those who have the skills to develop it won't be working at McDonalds.</p>

<p>I graduated from Rice, I didn't do a very extensive job search, had two similar offers, and am current working for a company in Houston that has a global customer base for its software -- all written right here in the USA. And as far as income goes... let's just say I'm not hurting in any way.</p>

<p>Medicine is a great profession if that's your passion, but there are other alternatives that offer just as rewarding a lifestyle. And don't go into medicine for the money -- that's the wrong damn reason.</p>

13

<p>"But it's going to be a very long time before you see Microsoft or Sun or Google toss their development teams and set up shop in New Delhi, if ever."</p>

<p>lolzzzz....what?? Are you sure you're an engineer...you seem to not know that Microsoft AND Google AND Sun have <strong>already</strong> set up shop in India!!!? And yes, these ARE development+research teams, not just dummy sites.</p>

<p>jk....but seriously, you need to stick your head out of your cube once in a while. Otherwise you may find yourself on the wrong end of a pink-slip.</p>

14

<p>yes, these companies have offices in india, but that doesn't mean all work is moving offshore. there will always be a market stateside if you're talented, as wprice noted.</p>

<p>i think you missed the critical word "toss." i just hope you read patient files more carefully ;).</p>

15

<p>Golubb_u, my persistent and stubborn friend,</p>

<p>My point is that primary development will still remain in the United States for the foreseeable future. Microsoft planned to <em>double</em> its workforce in India to all of 500 employees by 2005 -- a mere drop in the bucket compared to its North American employee resources. Google's India R&D center only employs approximately 100. Sun moved a good portion of its Java team to India so that it could <strong>better utilize its domestic resources on other projects</strong> since Java has been stable for quite some time.</p>

<p>I don't recall seeing a "computer scientist" on your list of references, nor have you cited any other sources, so until then please forgive me for trusting my perception of my own professional industry over the doomsday predictions of someone yet to enter college with no real links to the "real world" other than a few family friends.</p>

<p>And I'll tell 'ya what... I'll remove my head from my cubicle once in a while if you'll remove yours from whatever orifice in which it's so obviously lodged.</p>