<p>curious to hear opinions . . . daughter scheduled all 5 OVs early (Sept - Oct). Was very open and communicated with all 5 throughout, and was genuinely considering all. She was scheduled to leave for OV # 4 on a Saturday. The Tuesday before, she received a call from her #1 choice (an Ivy) saying a Likey Letter was in the mail (woo-hooo!). That night, even though actual letter was not on hand, she called OV 's# 4, 5, politely explained she received a Likely and was committing to another school, said she thought it was best for everyone to cancel the visits. A week later, she received a letter from OV # 4 (not an Ivy) asking for a refund on her airfare. In the scheme of things, she is absolutely THRILLED and is ready to send off a check . . . . but I'm curious to hear what experienced posters here think about the refund request. Granted, it was short notice and they are disappointed and out the airfare . . . but she communicated asap when she heard. (Daughter clearly hasn't given it a second thought . . this is just grumpy Dad.)</p>
<p>I’ve never heard of that before. Would the coach have preferred that she take the visit and waste his money AND time?</p>
<p>Perhaps his budget is used up and he needs that money back to offer another OV to someone else?</p>
<p>I think it is totally fair for the coach to ask for a refund. They are all operating on tight budgets and it was a very late cancellation. If you can afford it, I say be very grateful for your D’s likely and consider the check you write a deposit in the karma bank.</p>
<p>My d knew in may where she would most likely go. But she still did 3 OV’s. Just to be sure and to further her relationship with those other coaches …I think she should have gone.</p>
<p>^^Agree. What if things don’t work out? A friend’s daughter was recruited by an Ivy and received a LL only to be told at the last minute that, sorry, there had a been a “change in policy” and she wouldn’t be admitted after all. This person was internationally ranked in her sport with an AI well above the school’s average. The coach felt extremely bad and was able to recommend her to another Ivy coach where she was given a LL for RD and did get in.</p>
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<p>She received an actual Likely Letter from an Ivy that was not honored? There was no precipitous drop in grades or criminal/ethical problems on her part? If what you say is true, it shakes the entire concept of the LL and would be the first case I’ve heard of. You need to elaborate.</p>
<p>I had the same thought</p>
<p>Shortlists - Welcome to CC Athletic Recruiting and congratulations to your D on her LL.</p>
<p>I think your D handled this situation admirably by politely cancelling the other visits. The only circumstance where I could reasonably expect the college to ask for travel reimbursement would be if they had sent your D the cash to cover the travel costs and were simply asking for the money to be returned. In the more likely event that they booked her ticket, they did so at their risk and, so long as your D has acted in good faith, which it seems she has, it is unreasonable for them to ask that she pay for the flight.</p>
<p>I share varska and pacheight’s skepticism about the failed LL. I’ve been asking, both on CC and in RL, for examples of failed LLs for some time, and I’ve yet to hear of a confirmed case where the LL had truly been issued and an actual admission did not follow, notwithstanding a rescindable event. This would be the first.</p>
<p>I know of instances where a school has withdrawn OV offers when the school filled its recruiting bucket. Tough luck to the recruit!</p>
<p>Here, the shoe is on the other foot. Tough luck to the school!</p>
<p>I wonder if the school refrains from giving offers until EVERY SINGLE prospective recruit has walked the hollowed halls, been given the sale’s pitch, attended the parties, etc., etc.? I doubt it!</p>
<p>Sounds like a bit of an emotional response from the recruiting coach (DS got one along the lines of “if we knew you needed financial aid, we wouldn’t have recruited you” when he declined the offer), which was a simple knee jerk reaction to a recruiting miss.</p>
<p>A school that buys non-refundable, non-changeable tickets for OVs is a school looking to save pennies in a world which spends dollars. If the school really has that approach, imagine what else it would try to save on (perhaps tape and bandages for its athletes, maybe athletic trainers, maybe even food)? </p>
<p>Enjoy your choice – and circle the date when you face the other institution. That is the day you want to have a career day!</p>
<p>Interesting situation.
I had wondered about how the schools handle flights/costs of cancelled OVs…and assumed it was all handled with refundable ticketing through a corporate office.</p>
<p>In our case–our student chose to take very limited OVs…
…and we do know that those schools did see ALL recruits before offically offering LLs.
The recruits and coaches discussed/verballed–(our student verballed/committed at the OV) however no one was being offered LLs until all recruits walked the hallowed halls.</p>
<p>It could be that tickets are refundable up to a point–say until 5-7 days prior or something…?? A tueday call (likely afetrnoon/evening) for that weekend is really short notice.</p>
<p>From all we have read here on CC and what we know of the LL process…failure of a LL seems dubious…
I heard a GC say that LLs can fail–my guess is it has to be a huge drop in grades or something later found to be false in the app…</p>
<p>Concur with Varska, Pacheight, Sherpa, and Stemit.</p>
<p>These visits are part of an extended negotiation. Each party is obligated to act in good faith. The school offered the OV. Your daughter agreed in good faith to make the visit investing her time, but at the school’s expense. </p>
<p>I assume the school had not offered a scholarship prior to the visit. Even if they had, it had not yet been accepted. As such, both parties agreed to invest in taking the relationship to the next level, but agreement had not yet been reached.</p>
<p>The remaining key point was were their conditions associated with the visit. An agreement not to commit elsewhere until after the visit or a discussion regarding reimbursement of the expenses if adequate and defined notice was not given. In the absence of such an agreement, School 4 was at risk of getting undercut by an offer from a competing school prior to the visit and they knew it (although they might not want to admit it). Otherwise, they would have offered earlier themselves, or, if they did, should have been cognizant that you had not yet accepted because you had other interests and were not yet ready to commit to them.</p>
<p>Given the timing of the Ivy offer, your daughter communicated in good faith. The school may want to consider the basis on which they purchase air travel or have more direct agreements with recruits regarding restrictions (although I doubt that this would jump start their recruiting).</p>
<p>They should appreciate your discretion in not naming the school after such an inappropriate request.</p>
<p>I hope your daughter enjoys school next year!!!</p>
<p>Hi all—I’m the mom of the recruit and would like to say thanks to all for weighing in. Ironically the request for reimbursement came from one of the wealthiest private colleges around (not an ivy). But-- perhaps their track recruiting budget is small. As the track world is a small one, we are leaning on sending them a check for the airfare. The only hesitation was the tone of the request. There was an indication that my D was not acting honorably. She had tried (unsuccessfully) to schedule the OV to sch. #4 sooner in the fall. As she would have completed 3 ivy OV’s by that time and would probably (hopefully) be asked to commit to them ED.<br>
We thought the proper process was to keep all options open –(being honest with coaches of where else going for OV) until you have a LL (preferably in hand). Once you have a LL it was the correct thing to cancel any subsequent visits, and inform all other coaches. To hear School #4 did not feel that this was the honorable way to handle- we found confusing.<br>
But the good news is she is THRILLED by her choice. Hopefully we can take what we’ve learned these past two years about recruiting and share w/ the next generation of track athletes coming along.</p>
<p>i don’t understand. are athletes committing to a coach before they’ve finished their scheduled OV’s and therefore canceling the remaining OV(s)?</p>
<p>i think that’s totally uncool. </p>
<p>i don’t know about other sports but in my d’s sport everyone knows each other across the country. my d at her young age knows athletes and college coaches from across the country, she would have felt terrible canceling on the ivy OV or big pac 10 OV she had remaining, she wanted to give them a fair look even though she most likely had already made her decision. and she is good friends with one of the coaches and several of the athletes already on both teams.</p>
<p>i think it’s rude to schedule an ov and then cancel.</p>
<p>Have you even done any research as to what a LL means??! a Likely Letter is issued by the Ivys only and is a “gentlemens agreement” that you will go to that school and stop your recruiting process. As many schools and coaches won’t give you a Guarantee as to whether or not Admissions will approve any application …Glicton’s D did exactly the right thing! If your S or D has a first choice of college they have a better chance of getting in the earlier they get their application in to that school. So why wait 3 or 4 or 5 weeks to get though all of the OV’s? Other recruit’s are getting in while you wait for your last OV’s–maybe the coach won’t have any LL left to push for your S or D!! </p>
<p>The applicant should not cancel any OV until they have the official LL in hand. I have heard of many recruits not finnishing all 5 OV’s-- but I have never heard of a school asking for $ back -I wonder if it’s a new head coach?</p>
<p>Every sport is different, but inherently this is not a fair process. There are no rules. This board is replete with with questions and answers detailing inaccuracies, vagueness, and even misrepresentations by coaches to recruits during a lengthy, difficult process.</p>
<p>This is easy to understand. Much is at risk. These coaches’ jobs depend as much as the recruiting classes they bring in as their coaching ability. The recruits’ admission to Ivy league schools is uncertain and dependent on the LL offer. These are schools where admission for the non-athlete applicants with (in most cases) far superior academic credentials is a virtual lottery.</p>
<p>And last, there are no rules or even widely held common practices in this process. Each party is trying to act in a civil and respectful manner while they act to maximize their own welfare.</p>
<p>In this situation, in the absence of a prior agreement that the school was going withhold offering LLs until all OV were complete and they had the expectation that the athlete’s that accepted an invitation to OV would withhold accepting an offer until they completed all OVs sounds great. It is never said for a reason. </p>
<p>If, during the first available weekend for OVs, a school’s first choice by far at the end of the weekend approached the coach, said she loved the school, and was ready to commit, what do you think the coach would do? In a perfect world, he would encourage her to visit the four remaining schools on her list to make sure she was making the right decision. What is likelihood of this happening?</p>
<p>Conversely, suppose the Ivy that offered the athlete in question offered the LL made that offer then. They did not wait until all of the athlete’s OVs were complete. Even if it is not said, usually this indicates an implied exploding offer. It is good until the next best athlete offered a LL accepts. Then it is often gone.</p>
<p>In the world these coaches live in, where their job security is as good as their past few seasons’ performance, they make the offer, even if it is not exactly fair to athletes visiting on later weekends. It will usually be an exploding offer. And they sleep better that evening knowing that they have done the right thing for their families and schools.</p>
<p>And nine out of ten of the coaches would not cancel any of the future athletes’ OVs, because to do so might hurt their position for future recruiting at these athletes’ schools.</p>
<p>This is why there aren’t rules or stated understandings about this process. Because it is each parties responsibility to maximize their result.</p>
<p>Compliments to the athlete and the family in question for:</p>
<ol>
<li> Understanding this, making the right decision on a timely basis</li>
<li> Communicating on a timely basis to the coach</li>
<li> (I hope) not being guilted into writing a check for a coach that can’t accept an adverse outcome and is acting badly</li>
</ol>
<p>If the offer had not be forthcoming, would he have compensated you for your time spent.</p>
<p>I think that one’s reaction to this situation can be clouded by one’s perception of where one stands in the recruiting process. If an athlete’s prospects are very bright and they are confident that the LL (or the opportunity for it) will be forthcoming from multiple schools, the ability to proceed through the complete OV process and deflect early offers is easier.</p>
<p>For a less qualified athlete (in some sports one of hundred offered an OV for 4-5 slots, one of two - three hundred making these visits to Ivies for 30 - 40 slots), the stakes and opportunity cost of “holding” while you complete the process are much higher.</p>
<p>And, conversely, for the highly qualified candidate, the interactions with the coaches are extreme in the flexibility, concern, and accommodation that is offered by the coaches. Job 1 for them is to land this high performing athlete that will build their program own. The interaction with the B and C band athlete takes on a different tone and they are afforded a different level of flexibility.</p>
<p>This kind of stuff is not for the faint of heart. And the coaches are the ones with the experience. This board is really great thing.</p>
<p>Without having been privy to all discussions between the athlete, parents and coach, it’s hard for us to know exactly what’s what in this situation. But I do know that at least one D1 coach told D that he had purchased the flight insurance for her airline tickets in case there was a problem and cancellation was necessary. What does that cost–like $15? Seems to me that they all should do that no matter what. What if the athlete gets sick? </p>
<p>Funny, but at the time we worried that he might be doing that so he could more easily back out of the offered visit if he filled his roster already after earlier recruiting weekends. But maybe he was protecting the investment from the athlete’s cancellation!</p>
<p>OK, I think I get it. Some athletes and their parents have anxiety over been offered a LL so when a coach makes that offer, that commitment, they may go for it and commit prior to going on the rest of their OV’s, right? And in those scenarios you have to cancel otherwise you’ll really look bad when the other coach finds out you already committed. So it’s the anxiety over the possibility of not getting an offer (LL, commitment, or something like) that causes an athlete to commit and not finish any remaining OV’s.</p>
<p>I guess I understand this but all the stories I know, including my D’s, offers were made (often before OV’s) and the athlete told the coach I’m very interested but I want to finish my OV’s first before I commit, just to make sure. And in all the cases I’m aware of the coach said fine, they’d wait (aka the offer remained good) until all the OV’s where over.</p>
<p>Now after all the OV’s where done than the pressure to commit or lose the offer started. Not to mention the anxiety around if admissions will accept you once you commit, that’s a whole other thread:)</p>
<p>interestingly in my D’s case all the schools that retracted their offers, after she committed to the 1 school, came back and said they we’ll still give her a LL etc, if admissions doesn’t let her in. that was kind of a mind blower for her, I don’t think she completely understood how highly recruited she was until then.</p>
<p>it must be more clear for timed athletes, you know more objectively how good you are and where you rank internationally!</p>
<p>Hi there- mother of the original recruit in this story. I just wanted to clarify with Pacheight without taking any offence. I’m sure you did not intend your tone to sound the way that it reads. </p>
<p>My daughter was already told by all 5 OV schools that they would push for LL for her (before her OV) or in the case of the D1 school, she would get in on her grades alone- and if not- the coach would use a chit to get her in. She had spent time at dozen schools during her junior year (including all 5 of her OV schools) and her first 3 OV’s confirmed in her mind where she wanted to go. Her thought was why not apply to her number one choice at this point? Why not get this resolved and perhaps give another recruit a chance at the slots that coaches had in mind for our D. Why take more time out of school? Believe me - nothing short of alien abduction would be changing her mind on her choice of schools. Perhaps she should not have bothered to book the last two OV’s…but they pressured her to come for a OV…so she booked in good faith- not knowing that she would feel so strongly after the first 3 OV’s. </p>
<p>So to clarify, there was no “anxiety over being offered a LL” -unless we were to take the tack that the coaches were not being honest. </p>
<p>So we should all be proud of our S and D’s that have worked so hard at school and at their sport to be in a situation of being recruited!
Thank you to Bballdad for summing up so nicely!</p>
<p>^^I understand, but it doesn’t change my opinion.</p>
<p>accepting and scheduling an OV is a commitment and I don’t think finding your dream school is a valid reason for canceling. The whole idea of the OV is to give the next OV coach an opportunity to sell his school to the athlete, to make his school even more dreamy. And this is especially true for coaches trying to get top recruits which your daughter sounds like she is. If you bail on the coach after promising to come visit, well, in my household we call that bad manners.</p>
<p>And it sounds like the coach that got stiffed felt like it was bad manners as well.</p>
<p>I don’t see much grey area here. Valid reasons for canceling are things like health problems, but finding something you like a lot is not a good reason.</p>