OV expense refund request from coach

Athletic Recruits
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<p>shortlists - I like how your D handled this and also your ability to keep your sense of humor through the whole thing. Your willingness to send the money takes “taking the high road” to a stratospheric level. Good for you.</p>

<p>@fishymom (post #54) It is clear that LLs can only follow completed apps. </p>

<p>“An institution may send a “likely” probabilistic communication letter to a candidate (whether or not the applicant is a recruited student-athlete) only if the applicant has submitted all of the materials which the institution requires in order to make an admissions decision.”</p>

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<p>I know I’m a little late to the party on this one. Is anyone friends with an NCAA Compliance Officer? This seems like an interesting question to pose to an AD or Compliance officer – even at another school. Someone other than a coach, but with an inside view. It would be interesting to get their take on a situation like this.</p>

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<p>You can call any university and speak with a compliance officer.</p>

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<p>I think it would be great if someone here would call and get a compliance officer’s take on this. I’ll buy a cyber beer for whoever does it.</p>

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<p>Yay, beer for me!</p>

<p>I just called NCAA and here’s their take: NCAA rules basically don’t address this circumstance. The guy I spoke with, in ten years at the office, had never heard of anything like this. He was shocked that the coach would ask for an airfare refund. There’s nothing in NCAA rules backing up the coach’s request, and further, asking for a check from a recruit is a slippery slope. His advice was for the parent to call the AD at the school involved, explain the situation, and ask if they should really be sending a check to the coach. Think about it: money from a recruit to a coach? What coach would want to answer questions about that?</p>

<p>He also said if the parents do write a check, they should then feel free to post the name of the school involved anywhere and everywhere. I have a newfound liking for the NCAA office.</p>

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<p>They should feel free to post the name for simply being asked to write a check.</p>

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<p>there’s got to be more to this story. the guy from the ncaa office is right, it’s crazy for a coach to ask for money.</p>

<p>shortlist: you’re not going to like my new take on this. but the fact that your d already had her app in, including teacher recs, to her #1 choice before she went on the “other” OV’s makes me wonder why she didn’t cancel the remaining OV’s weeks earlier.</p>

<p>and why would a coach feel so burned as to ask for money back? one answer is that he finds out a LL is in the mail from another school a few days before his scheduled ov, so he says to himself it takes a lot longer than a few days to 1) go through the process of committing to a coach, 2) complete an ivy application including teachers recs and essays, and 3) have an ivy coach request a LL and then actually get it in the mail. So he feels burned that the athlete hadn’t called weeks earlier (when she actually committed to the other school) to cancel his OV.</p>

<p>this athletes app was already in and she was waiting to hear about her LL, that means it was 99% done, every athlete I know is fully committed at that point. pre-read, wanted by the coach, and just waiting to find out when the LL will be sent. I believe this athlete should have cancelled those other OV’s as soon as the coach told her she was requesting a LL from admissions (that’s the commitment moment!), which as we all know is weeks before a LL is actually “in the mail.”</p>

<p>I don’t think the coach should ask for money back, but I understand why he would feel burned.</p>

<p>not looking for a fight here, but this story and why the coach is so upset just doesn’t add up. I think this kid fully knew where she was going weeks earlier, and that is why the cancelled OV coach is so upset.</p>

<p>had my d committed to her #1 choice, sent in her entire app, and be told from the coach that he had requested a LL for her, and then still planned on going on OV’s…I’d be upset at her.</p>

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<p>Sigh . . . . . just when I thought I was out . . . . </p>

<p>Pache . . . so if a young athlete decides at some point that an Ivy League school is his 1st choice, your advice to that athlete would be, as soon that coach indicates he will request a likely letter, the athlete should immediately cancel all other official visits? Sorry . . that’s just plain bad advice. Although a high % of coach requests for LLs do indeed result in a Letter, it is not 100%. College coach turnover is high, a coach new to the position may not really understand the process 100%, contacts in admissions change . . . stuff happens. In those cases where the letter does not come through, would you then counsel the athlete to call the coach of choice #2 (where the athlete cancelled the OV) with tail between legs and ask for the OV again . . . after that coach (and Admissions office) has removed the athlete from the OV list? Or is your advice to schedule only one OV, your first choice, let that run its course, and if it doesn’t work out, then schedule choice # 2, and so on? Both are bad strategies.</p>

<p>Until an athlete has a commitment from Admissions (in the case of Ivies, Admissions, not the coach, says a LL is coming) he should burn no bridges.</p>

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<p>The problem is that an ivy coach doesn’t “indicate” they will request a LL. They asked your athlete if he was committing to the school and your athlete said yes. That’s the only scenario in which the coach will move forward with using one of his limited LL chits to admissions. </p>

<p>Your athlete committed. It was a done deal. The LL always comes. There is no valid reason to keep going or scheduled ov’s</p>

<p>I don’t think you owe money to that other coach but I do think an apology is a good idea. And your athlete did burn a bridge…why do you think the other coach wants the airfare back</p>

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<p>I’m back–and once again pacheight has answered without reading carefully or understanding what has been written. The recruit “closed doors AFTER she received her LL. That….is….how …it ….is done.<br>
YES!!! A IVY league coach ALWAYS tells the recruit if they are going to push for a LL or not and if you re- read (carefully) this recruit was told by her first choice school (an ivy) that the coach was pushing for a LL for her (they said in earlier post all of their D’s OV’s told her they would push). The school she cancelled was NOT an Ivy.—
NO!!! LL are NOT always given –even if pushed for by coach. This is the ivy league and LL comes from admissions .
Read- carefully- the recruit applied to her #1 choice and when she was told by the coach of that school that admissions had approved and was mailing the LL—THEN the recruit cancelled her last two OV’s.</p>

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<p>Pache, we see the world through different lenses. That’s OK. Contrasting points of view will help future readers.</p>

<p>Every Ivy coach we talked to, and every admissions officer we talked to stated openly and clearly, “the coach has no authority to issue a Likely Letter or commit the school. They can request a Likely Letter but only admissions can make the final decision, commit the school, and issue a Likely Letter”. It is true that an Ivy coach, in most cases, will ask, “If I request a Likely Letter and admissons grants it, will you come to this school?” If the answer is yes, and if the letter comes, I agree the deal is done, and the athlete should quickly and politely inform all the other schools (exactly what we did - within hours).</p>

<p>You and I differ in timing of shutting everything down. Future readers of this thread will experience the same anxiety all of us have experienced, so I want to be VERY CAREFUL not to add to that anxiety and give the impression you should mistrust coaches. Every coach we spoke to was fantastic, and as others have said, the vast majority of Likely Letters come through once the coach says he/she will request one. 80%?, 90%?, 99.5%? No one knows. It probably differs school to school and sport to sport. But it is not 100%. This is not an issue of trust. The process between coach requesting a Likely Letter and Admissions issuing a Likely Letter is not 100% in the coach’s control. I would no more cancel OV’s as soon as a Likely Letter is “requested” than I would cancel all pending job interviews once a hiring manager tells me, “you are my top choice, all I need to do is get approval from one more committee”. I would continue pursuing all job options until the written job offer is in hand.</p>

<p>Signing off from this thread. Pache, hope you son/ daughter has an outstanding college career! </p>

<p>Short.</p>

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<p>At an Ivy you do not “commit” you put in your completed application and wait for admissions to review, a LL is not guaranteed (see other threads on LL and Ivy Leagues). Yes, my D was told before applying by the ivy coach that he would push for LL for her.</p>

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<p>Sorry I didn’t finish my previous post. Pacheight, my daughter completed 3 OV’s and spent considerable time on her own researching all 5 OV schools in a depth that amazed me. She was convinced that nothing would change her mind on her #1 choice. As OV visits 4 and 5 were three to five weeks in the future she wanted to put her application in to her #1 choice at that time. If for some reason it did not work out she would have continued on her quest. Happily it did.</p>

<p>Hope this thread has helped someone. It has certainly been interesting hearing so many views --thank you riverrunner for your call to NCAA-- As it is a small track world our lips are sealed as to the name of the school requesting refund. Good luck to those who are still waiting to hear!</p>

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<p>Here are a couple of facts:

  1. Ivy coaches frequently ask that recruits send in their official applications before they commit or come to an OV (in August or as soon as the applications come out).
  2. There are several cases that I know personally where coaches basically ‘guaranteed’ LL that then did not materialize, meaning that recruits had to scramble to find back-up.
  3. Some coaches push for a decision very early on BEFORE recruits have completed their OVs, and they are fully aware of this.
  4. Sometimes the time line is so that if you know that ivy 1 is your top choice, you have to act fast because if the LL does not show up, you want to be able to make ED deadlines at ivy 2.</p>
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<p>Shortlist - just wanted to add my appreciation for the way you’ve handled this situation. I agree that you continue to pursue recruiting options until you hear from admissions that the LL is on its way (not just requested) or even that you’ve actually received it. Then you let other schools know you’re committed as soon as you get that news. </p>

<p>I think most athletes are not indispensable and could be replaced by another athlete of similar caliber (not true for the elite of the elite - which is maybe why pacheight’s take on this is different) - thus, you have to assume that nothing is guaranteed until you get that LL. In my view you’ve behaved with integrity and considerable generosity to send a check for airfare!</p>

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<p>Once again, I’m dismayed that there does not seem to be a consistent process or understanding of the process. There appears to be too much variation. We understood the Ivy system to work this way:</p>

<p>1) athlete and school express mutual interest in each other
2) coach requests unofficial transcript and any available test scores to determine potential admissibility
3) if academics look good and mutual interest persists, athlete is offered an admissions pre-read
4) admissions looks at unofficial academic information and gives the coach the go-ahead to keep recruiting that student, or decides athlete will not be admissable and thus the process stops dead
5) if athlete passes, he is offered a FA pre-read if desired
6) OV is scheduled
7) athlete attends visit
8) athlete likes that one school, and likes it better than all others officially visited, then the athlete tells coach s/he definitely wants to come
9) athlete submits application, if not submitted already.
10) coach presents athlete’s application to the admissions committee
11) athlete is officially approved and given LL </p>

<p>It is my impression from how the coaches talked and the experience of D’s friends in the sport, that there aren’t many athletes lost between steps 10 and 11. Not one kid we know who committed to an Ivy after an OV didn’t received a LL from that school. There would have to be something on the order of a horrible teacher rec letter or an integrity violation on the student’s school record, but not something academic because that was already pre-approved and it’s the sports hook that is getting the kid in. If that weren’t the case, and if it weren’t basically a done deal after the pre-read so long as the mutual interest persisted, then the coach really couldn’t do his job recruiting. What would his interest and support mean then? Nothing. And how could he afford to spend money on visits for a bunch of recruits if only 8% would be admitted or if he couldn’t have any certainty they’d be admitted?</p>

<p>My sense is that coaches might themselves change their minds, and “use” admissions as a way to cut the athlete loose in favor of someone better who also committed. But if the kid has the minimum academic stats and there are no glaring red flags on the app, and the coach still wants him or her for the team, then it’s done. Also, we know no one who got a LL without submitting an application first, though I’m not doubting it could happen.</p>

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<p>GFG - I would agree that based on your steps indicated below that not many recruits are lots between steps 10 and 11: </p>

<p>6) OV is scheduled
7) athlete attends visit
8) athlete likes that one school, and likes it better than all others officially visited, then the athlete tells coach s/he definitely wants to come
9) athlete submits application, if not submitted already.
10) coach presents athlete’s application to the admissions committee
11) athlete is officially approved and given LL </p>

<p>However, I think a significant number are lost between steps 6 and 11. When our S was about to commit to his school, he had one last conversation with a coach for another Ivy who was recruiting him and S pushed hard to understand the numbers. The coach at this other school wanted our S to come up for a late season OV. When our S pushed to get this information, the coach indicated that he was having 6 recruits come up and had one last slot to offer. So for each of the athletes who attended that OV, their odds were 1 in 6 of being offered an opportunity to play there. That’s what I was referring to in my earlier post when I said that many athletes recruited are not indispensable - we had another coach say, “it’s my job to be filling roster spots… I’d love to have you compete for me, but understand that I can’t wait long for an answer as I need to be filling my roster.” I think our athlete was in the middle of the pack of Ivy recruits in terms of athletic ability - he had multiple offers of OV from Ivy’s, but was not their TOP recruit. I expect a TOP recruit will have a somewhat different experience. Thus, for the average recruit, I think you have to continue the recruiting process with all schools you’re genuinely interested in until you have the LL in your hand or know from Admissions that it’s coming.</p>

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<p>maybe it goes back to the level of recruit. or it still seems like it might be an anxiety based reaction to not tell other coaches you have already committed.</p>

<p>my d and several of her teammates from around the country all told the other coaches with in about 48 hours of committing. Once committed to the ivy or non ivy they let the other coaches know. Those who still had OV’s scheduled, cancelled them. very few had OV’s left because most waited for all their OV’s to be completed before committing. Now it is true that these girls are some of the best athletes in the country, two of whom where most likely the best junior athletes in the world, in their sport.</p>

<p>My D as well as the others where pressured by these other coaches to make a decision in the weeks and days coming up to committing (and committing in their world is when the LL is requested for them or other similar admissions vehicles from non ivys). My daughter had long talks with a couple of these other coaches telling them she’d made up her mind and unfortunately couldn’t come to their team, and then she said “but if for some reason I don’t get in” can I still come to your school (there’s your 1% what if). They said no, you gotta choose now. And this was weeks before any LL or acceptance letter would arrive.</p>

<p>She still has great relationships with all these coaches, they were disappointed not to get her but they appreciated knowing and not being kept in the dark. Furthermore her coach at the school she signed with advised her to let everyone else know where she committed and not to wait because that would be dishonest to the other coaches. This is very significant, she’s being advised to do this by one of the most respected and successful coaches in the world, in this sport. Also, her junior coaches advised her to do the same, let the other coaches know what’s going on, don’t play games.</p>

<p>All of her teammates (a couple different teams from around the country), about 10 athletes that I know their parents and their stories all approached recruiting the same way.</p>

<p>So, that’s my view of recruiting. I don’t know any athletes who committed and then continued on for weeks with other coaches and didn’t tell them they had already committed.</p>

<p>Also, I know the time between committing and receiving admissions or a LL is nerve wracking but that’s just the way it is. BTW, both other coaches came back in a couple weeks while my d was waiting to hear from admissions and said if on the off chance things don’t work out we still want you. Now that’s a better way to go then having the coach come back and demand airfare.</p>

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<p>Also, this is the Ivy League and they have committed to maintaining very high academic standards, including for their athletes. So after the admissions pre-read, I think the “only admissions can admit you” mantra is 99% PR. They simply don’t want kids going around saying “The coach got me in.” It would make them look bad.</p>

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<p>I’ve followed CC and different postings over the past few years (my D is a freshman track runner at an Ivy –Yea!), and have never been tempted to comment before. The non ivy’s and their “commitments” are NOT the same as the Ivy’s LL. </p>

<p>I cannot ever imagining calling all the coaches you had OV ‘s with to tell them you are putting in an application at XYZ ivy –before you hear that you have a LL at XYZ ivy. It would really show poor judgment. You are applying not committing. You do NOT have to apply ED- therefore you are not legally bound to attend that school. When you receive your LL (NCAA rules allow you to receive more than one LL) you then should commit and then call coaches you had OV’s with and let them know. </p>

<p>In reading the threads to this post – It sounds as if Shortlist’s D was in similar situation as mine last year. Pacheight is stuck on level of recruit for some reason. My daughter basically could have gone to any college in the country (assuming they had a track program!). My D was recruited by the best div 1 schools as well as seven of the Ivy’s. She was rated 15 in the country in her timed event.</p>

<p>My D also cancelled her last OV (at a non ivy school) after receiving her LL at her #1 choice. We also did not cancel the final OV until we had the LL in hand (the coach at the ivy she applied to advised her not to cancel until she heard from his admissions on LL). She received her LL within 48 hours of her application being in. No she wasn’t worried she wouldn’t get the LL but she did want to study for her big AP Physics test she had missed during her 4th OV.</p>

<p>The reason she applied before her final visit was she knew what she wanted at that point. After meeting many of my D’s current teammates I have concluded that the majority of athletes that in high school have; maintained high GPA’s in AP classes, gotten over 2400 on SAT’s and are the best athletes in their sport in the country, usually are smart and determined and level headed enough to know their own mind. They are very hard working and very honorable. And a parent needs to trust their decision. The coach at the cancelled OV was disappointed but understood and asked my D to keep him in mind if she ever wants to transfer. </p>

<p>I will concur with, varska, riverrunner, 3togo, bballdad, fastrackdad, who all seem to understand the Ivy process clearly. Shortlist, I agree with all of them that you and your D (who is obviously a highly sought after recruit) handled the situation correctly and with a sense of humor (much needed in those stressful junior/senior days).</p>

<p>Also please note to all new recruits & parents, there is a constant change of coaches every year at all colleges, so please don’t have your S or D make the mistake of choosing a college based upon a coach, or they may be asking to transfer partway through their college years (as we have had some friend’s athletes do). The flavor of the team as a whole and the college in general is far more important.</p>

<p>In addition, for next year’s crop or recruits–I wish someone had told us how difficult the OV’s were on the HS senior. Trying to maintain high grades in AP classes is very difficult to do when missing 5 or more days of school during the fall semester.<br>
The question becomes, do you try to schedule your OV’s for your favorite Ivy schools first or last? Our advice would be to schedule the two Ivies who do not have ED or EA last, as you would not have to get their applications in as soon as the other Ivies….does anyone who has been deciding between Ivies have an opinion?</p>