<p>Did not see posts #37 and 38 when I wrote mine. I think bballdad gets to the heart of the matter when he says that what is a business decision gets clouded with “feel-good interaction.”</p>
<p>Pacheight has been clear in his previous posts that the coaching relationship was of utmost importance as a factor in his D’s decision-making. Some athletes (and their parents) care much more about liking the coach and team members than others do, and may tend to see the OV’s as an opportunity to figure out who they like best from a personal standpoint. Perhaps that’s why Pacheight sees this as more of a social relationship than a business one. (If it’s a business relationship, then I’d contend it’s one with the potential to become a more personal one in which the athlete spends hours a day with that coach.) Other athletes and their families are focusing more on other factors, perhaps academics, the campus, the food, the reputation of the school, etc. As such, they may be less inclined to see this as a social relationship. Neither is wrong.</p>
<p>^^^ “Who knows if your ranking of schools will be completely reordered after the OV’s are completed? That happened with D!”</p>
<p>^^^We totally relate to that, GFG! For what it is worth, although my daughter did end up following through on her commitment to take all 5 OVs planned, she had not foreseen the toll it would take on her school work, and the mental drain too. However, her final OV was to a school she had never visited on an unofficial - the only school she hadn’t seen, and thus felt the least “connected” to - and that school turned out to be her absolute #1 dream school, and where she has committed to go. Her ranking of “favorites” changed immediately when she set foot on campus. If she had accepted a LL offer earlier, she may have bowed out of the visit, and never would have seen this school. Things really do seem to happen for a reason - and this was an outcome/choice we never really foresaw.</p>
<p>Our feeling had been it would have been OK to cancel visits before plane tickets were bought - more of a financial commitment from a school than train or bus tickets. HOWEVER, just as valid, is that the OP did what felt right to them in their situation - and congratulations on the LL!</p>
<p>looks like I really stirred things up. glick, sorry. you’re right it was someone else who said that.</p>
<p>gfg is right as always, it’s very personal. </p>
<p>my biz hiring analogy may not have been very good but I’ve never believed in the notion that it’s not personal it’s just business. In my view it’s all personal especially my business dealings and certainly my d’s relationship with coaches and athletes, her word to others is important. i think if you tell a coach you’ll come to their school and consider it, you should honor that statement.</p>
<p>I think the big difference that has been alluded to, but may bear further discussion, is the level of the recruit. Pacheight has said elsewhere (I think), that his/her D was the top recruit in the country for her sport. That allows her a very different perspective and options than the vast majority of recruits. She can wait until the last OV to commit because they will wait for her. That is not true for most recruits.</p>
<p>My son, not a high level but a desirable athlete, was asked to apply EA and also to commit to the school in exchange for coaches support. He did so, then coach basically disappeared after November. Son was deferred and rejected. Later on we found that a higher level athlete was to attend that school. We think we know where the coach went. We never heard from the coach again. Cost of doing business, we said. Fortunately, my son still had other options. </p>
<p>Please, remember that for the large majority of recruits, they have to look out for themselves, because the coach is busy looking out for him/herself.</p>
<p>You got right to heart of the matter for the majority of the athletes contending with this. The highest performing athletes are insulated from these kind of consequences. By keeping a “business” focus, at least the athlete is insulated from taking this kind of behavior personally from coaches that have developed “feel good” relationships but suddenly disappear when a better candidate emerges.</p>
<p>Yes, the varying perspectives among us seems to be mostly due to a difference in our understanding of how the process played out/is playing out for us personally–specifically regarding how volatile or exploding we viewed the coach interest to be. D was by no means at the very top as a recruit, but in her case we didn’t consider Ivy coach interest as time-contingent so long as a decision was made by mid-Nov. In other words, D communicated from the very beginning that she had scheduled 5 visits and planned to take all of them before deciding. Only one school, Princeton, communicated anything that sounded pressuring–something on the lines of how his job was to fill his roster, and while he wanted her, if someone of similar caliber committed first, then he’d take that person over D. Even with P, though, D felt she had time to take her fall visits and then make a decision immediately after. At one point after her OV there, the Princeton coach called and hinted that another girl who had visited at the same time as D was wanting to commit and he wondered if D had decided yet. D hadn’t decided yet and refused to be rushed since she still had two visits outstanding. None of the other coaches pressured her in that way, however, so I guess that gave us a cushion. If she had been 99% sure Princeton was her first choice, maybe she would have caved. </p>
<p>So, the way our process worked was that each coach said they’d offer D a LL if D decided that their school was her top choice. Since she had agreed to consider all the schools before deciding, it wouldn’t have happened that she’d have gotten a LL before finishing her Ivy visits. So while I understood why there’d be no need to finish your OV’s if you had already committed and gotten a LL, I was unclear why a recruit would have committed to taking an OV unless s/he planned to give that school serious and full consideration. And in order to give the school that full consideration, s/he have had to take the OV first.</p>
<p>Great that it worked out for your daughter.</p>
<p>@ihs76 son’s situation was different. Unfortunately, depending on the particular coaches you are dealing with, everything is great until it isn’t. Your daughter benefited from clear and accurate communication (albeit with a little arm twisting from Princeton). Again, this is not to taken for granted. It is logical to set up an OV process and schedule. Just be advised that things can and often will change in the middle of it, depending on the coaches’ needs, your potential value to him, and his other options. It is the athlete’s and the athlete’s family’s responsibility to take care of their own business. And there are no binding rules until you have the LL or LOI in hand.</p>
<p>I’d guess that the recruiting game is much more volatile in the high-profile male sports, as well as sports with specific field positions like goalie or pitcher, and that could also be the source of the varying perspectives.</p>
<p>Is it necessary for a student who has accepted a LL or signed a NLI to contact other coaches they corresponded with over the course of 6-12 months to say, hey I have landed here…
or not necessary, since its just a “courtesy”?</p>
<p>I am guessing it’s unnecessary unless you did an OV and told them you’d let 'em know kind of thing–that if they haven’t heard from you they know you have moved on…</p>
<p>As a matter of business, you are only obligated to communicate your status to other coaches from whom you have an outstanding offer or a commitment to follow up with them.</p>
<p>As a matter of self interest, it is very much in your interest to communicate with those coaches with whom you have developed a close relationship, letting them know of your outcome and thanking them for their time and attention. You never know. What comes around goes around. You may have future contact with that coach as his career and yours progresses and their is equity in building a relationship.</p>
<p>For those coaches with whom the contact has been less personal or the attention is not recent, contacting them can be perceived as a negative - i.e. you found a better alternative.</p>
<p>Yikes . . . never thought my original post, sent over a quiet cup of coffee early Sunday morning, would prompt such a spirited discussion. Thanks everyone for taking the time to post. This area of CC is a special place. Wish I found it earlier.</p>
<p>For those who may be curious, here is my conclusion after reading all posts. In my humble opinion, the young athlete did exactly the right thing given her particular circumstances. She had already been to all 5 schools at least once, had many conversations with coaches and athletes, and was truly interested in all 5 schools. When choice #1 became a reality (and it was not a foregone conclusion before that point), there was not a force on the planet that would change her mind. She’d done all the research, and had a very thoughtful/ compelling case for “closing the deal now”. So the logic was, why miss more school, use up additional recruiting budget and coaches’ and athletes’ time, and possibly delay releasing a coveted spot to another deserving athlete who saw OV school #4 as her #1. In this case, the refund request was odd, and she should feel no obligation to refund the airfare to the coach.</p>
<p>With that said, I will happily send the reimbursement, for two reasons . . . </p>
<p>1.) If there is even a tiny possibility, that the refund will fill the expense coffers enough to make it possible for some other young athlete to now make an OV to her dream school - it’s worth every penny, and</p>
<p>2.) The entertainment value of this thread FAR exceeded the cost of the airfare.</p>
<p>Hope all the young athletes thrive at their new schools.</p>
<p>I still don’t understand how she got a LL without sending in an application. “she received a call from her #1 choice (an Ivy) saying a Likey Letter was in the mail”</p>
<p>knowing how that happened would be valuable info for people on these boards. I always thought you had to send your app in before you could get a LL.</p>
<p>Some schools ask that the student apply before issuing a Likely Letter, but per The Ivy League Mission Statement, it is not a requirement. </p>
<ul>
<li>An Ivy coach may both inquire about a candidate’s level of commitment to an Ivy institution, or interest in attending that Ivy institution, and encourage that interest. However, a candidate may not be required to make a matriculation commitment, to withdraw other applications, or to refrain from visiting another institution, as a condition for receiving a “likely” letter, or an estimate of financial aid eligibility, or a coach’s support in the admissions process. In addition, coaches may not request that candidates not share estimates of financial aid eligibility with other schools.</li>
</ul>
<p>Frankly, going on an OV if you’ve already made up your mind and committed somewhere else seems very disingeneous to me. You’re leading the coach, the team, the university on. How do you behave, what do you say during the visit when you already know that you have no intention whatsoever to come to this school and ever see these people who are hosting you again? Awkward!
Also, depending on the timeline , i.e. close to ED deadlines, you may be taking a spot form another recruit who’d love to commit to this school. Imagine if half the visiting recruits had already committed somewhere else?</p>
<p>OP, I hope the coach is too mortified to cash the check.</p>
<p>And to the question about notifying the other coaches about your decision, I do think that’s something the student should do. As others have said, it’s a small world. If you’ve selected a team in a league where you were recruited by other coaches in the same league, you WILL run into those other coaches next year. It’s nice to be able to look them in the eye, shake hands, and know you did everything possible to end things on a positive. </p>
<p>Professional behavior on your part is also helpful to the younger athletes from your school or club who may be recruits in the years to come. Even if you said “no”, if you said it in the right way, the coach will be inclined to want to talk to the next kid coming out of your school. Do them a favor and call the coaches and regretfully decline the offers.</p>
<p>Conversely, the coach who is trying to ding the OP for the plane ticket may not have an easy time around the OP’s school, if this gets out!</p>
<p>I think it’s a little scam the coach is running. He’s probably buying refundable tickets and then billing athletes on top of it. </p>
<p>re; LLs and applications. As has been drilled into out collective heads, only admissions can give Likelys, and admissions is going to need a completed ap before evaluating the applicant.</p>
<p>fishy, I don’t see anything in the Mission Statement that would indicate an application is not a requirement in receiving a LL. You can apply without making a matriculation commitment (at least at HY and P)</p>
<p>Pacheight, she did have her application in before she received the call - every piece - entire Common App, all teacher recommendations, test scores directly from SAT/ACT, transcript from high school - everything. Each Ivy she talked to said the entire application needed to be submitted to Admissions before they would make a decision and (if the decision was yes) issue a Likely Letter. And all were consistent that only Admissions could make the final decision and issue a LL. Coaches could advocate, but could not decide.</p>
<p>Fishy Mom, I have a different read on that Mission Statement. If you read it carefully it does not say that an application is not a requirement. That statement is silent on whether or not an application is a requirement. Every Ivy we talked to was consistent in the sequence: 1.) full/ complete application must be in to Admissions, 2.) then Admissions would make the decision on whether or not a LL would be issued, then 3.) only Admissions could actually issue the LL. (We did not, however, talk to all of the Ivies). In her case, Admissions told the coach the LL was printed and being mailed, and the coach called with the news. it arrived about a week later.</p>
<p>Pacheight, she did have her application in before she received the call - every piece - entire Common App, all teacher recommendations, test scores directly from SAT/ACT, transcript from high school - everything. Each Ivy she talked to said the entire application needed to be submitted to Admissions before they would make a decision and (if the decision was yes) issue a Likely Letter. And all were consistent that only Admissions could make the final decision and issue a LL. Coaches could advocate, but could not decide.</p>
<p>Fishy Mom, I have a different read on that Mission Statement. If you read it carefully it does not say that an application is not a requirement. That statement is silent on whether or not an application is a requirement. Every Ivy we talked to was consistent in the sequence: 1.) full/ complete application must be in to Admissions, 2.) then Admissions would make the decision on whether or not a LL would be issued, then 3.) only Admissions could actually issue the LL. (We did not, however, talk to all of the Ivies). In her case, Admissions told the coach the LL was printed and being mailed, and the coach called with the news. it arrived about a week later.</p>
<p>short, thanks! that is different than my d’s experience. for her it was 1) go on ov’s, 2) commit to 1 school, 3) send in 1 app, 4)sign nli (or ll for you ivy folk)</p>
<p>out here the sending of the 1 app is the followup to the commitment to the 1 coach/school.</p>
</p>