Overexaggerated Importance?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I am a Senior in HS, applying to a very selective college (Wellesley) and looking into other top schools.</p>

<p>One thing that is always mentioned in any "Chance" thread I make is my 1970 SAT I score. (CR-690 M-640 W-640)
Many tell me that without at least a 2000-2100 SAT, my chances are mute. My mother, on the other hand, believes that the importance of the SATs is being very overexaggerated and that I have nothing to worry about. (But she might be a bit biased. ;) ) </p>

<p>Seeing as this IS CC, things tend to be overemphasized, and a very disproportionate group of students are being reperesented.
Since joining the CC community, I am almost certain I have developed an ulcer from worrying.</p>

<p>As parents of college students/High School Hopefuls, what are your thoughts?
Exactally how important are the SAT's, and how horrible is a 1970 SAT really?</p>

<p>Thank you in advance for any input! :)</p>

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<p>cc can be ulcer-inducing, if you let it. Don’t let it.</p>

<p>1970 is a good score, but if you look at the common data set for Wellesley (the last year I could find quickly was 2006-07) you’ll see that a 1970 is at the 25%. Makes getting into Wellesley an uphill climb but not impossible. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Look at the Common Data Set and bring data to the rescue! Google “Wellesley common data set” and you’ll find it. It will show the distribution of SAT scores at different levels.</p>

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<p>Pet peeve. Mute means “silent”. Moot means “subject to debate; arguable”. It’s subject to debate whether you’ll get into Wellesley. People here often argue that the majority of the students with stats in the bottom quarter of the class are legacies and athletes or have other hooks. I’ve never seen any convincing evidence. Knowing nothing else about you, I’d say Wellesley is a reach, but by no means impossible.</p>

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<p>It depends how much emphasis the school places on SAT scores. If Wellesley is anything like Smith, the answer is: not much. By far more important will be your transcript, and whether or not you’ve done well in the most rigorous curriculum available.</p>

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<p>All I know is that there’s the famous quote about SAT scores counting less than students think and more than colleges are willing to admit. </p>

<p>It is only one piece of your admissions package. Nobody can predict your chances based on SAT score alone. IMO, 1970 is a fine SAT score. That said, any school like Wellesley with a 35% overall acceptance rate is tough to get into for anybody. </p>

<p>The SAT breakdowns are on their website. </p>

<p>[Statistics</a> 2013](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/statistics.html]Statistics”>http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/statistics.html)</p>

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<p>Xani, my daughter was accepted at Barnard with a lower SAT than yours; Barnard statistically accepts a smaller percentage of applicants than Wellesley. I’d note that my daughter opted to submit ACT’s rather than SAT’s, but her ACT wasn’t much better. It was actually in the bottom quartile for students accepted that year. </p>

<p>I found a chart showing Wellesley acceptance rates in each score range here:
[Test</a> Info and Dates](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/testinginfo.html]Test”>http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/testinginfo.html)</p>

<p>Roughly 1/3 of applicants who apply with math & CR scores in your range get accepted – you can do the numbers yourself. Also keep in mind that among the highest scoring applicants, the admission rate is about 65% at best. </p>

<p>In other words, if you had 790 on CR rather than 690, you’d have a 2:3 rather than 1:3 chance of being admitted – (if scores were the only factor) - so in a sense your scores means that your chances of admission are roughly half the chances of a student with high-end scores. </p>

<p>Focus on your strengths in your application. Your test scores are not a strength, but they are not a weakness either – based on the charts at the Wellesley site, I think that the point where chances start to really fall off are at about 550. So you should look it this way: the scores don’t help, but they don’t hurt either. If Wellesley wants you based on other stuff in your application package, no one is going to say - “these scores are too low” – but you DO have to give them some other good reasons to select you. That could be GPA, that could be some specific talent or achievement, or factors about your interests and personality reflected in your essays and letters of recommendation. </p>

<p>I would also suggest that you apply before January 1 under the early evaluation plan. See:
[Decision</a> Plans](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/decisionplans.html]Decision”>http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/admission/decisionplans.html)
If you do that, they will give you a letter at the end of February telling you whether admission is likely, possible, or unlikely. Obviously “unlikely” would be a bad thing – but it can’t hurt to know that a month early. Also, I think the early evaluation plan is a way to signal to Wellesley that they are one of your top choices. </p>

<p>Good luck. Your mom is right - the scores don’t matter nearly as much as people who post on chances threads at CC think. It always amazes me that people who score well on the SAT math have such difficulty understanding basic concepts of statistics and probability-- they don’t seem to understand that 50% of the students admitted have scores below the median.</p>

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<p>Not to derail this thread (apologies to the OP!), but mathmom got me curious. Apparently the meaning of MOOT is moot :)</p>

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<p>To the OP: All the students aiming at a dream school have something to worry about. That is, you, like them, have a chance, and that is all you can count on for now. So you give it your best shot and then put it out of your mind and see how the chips fall. Good luck to you and I hope you get in!</p>

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<p>starbright and mathmom- Glad you took the time to discuss “moot”, the OP’s misuse was glaring. Perhaps the lesson will help someone capture a few extra SAT vocab points someday!</p>

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<p>A schools 25-75% range will give you lots of info on how important scores are. Clearly they are fairly important at Wellesley.</p>

<p>When looking at the range, it’s important to consider that about 40% of the class have hooks. So if you’re in the bottom third on any key stat without a hook, any way you slice it, chances are not good.</p>

<p>There are many instances like that of Calmom’s DD who beat the odds. But they are the EXCEPTIONS.</p>

<p>So the factual answer to the OP’s question is that with her present scores unless she has a hook or strong tip factor she can’t count on a decent chance at Wellesley.</p>

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<p>And your evidence for that is what?</p>

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<p>This is an example of the inability to understand basic concepts of probability and statistics that I referenced in my above post. No matter what metric you look at, one-third of the admitted class is in the “bottom third”. </p>

<p>I noticed something else about Wellesley stats: if you look at admitted vs. enrolled students, Wellesley’s yield is roughly 1/3 for students with SATs above 750, but closer to 1/2 for students in lower score ranges. I would assume that the ad com at Wellesley is very much aware that the top end scorers are significantly less likely to enroll than the students in in the 600-650 range. This factor would be irrelevant in the ED pool, but tend to reduce the attractiveness of high-end scorers in the RD pool, especially if Wellesley does not offer any sort of merit aid. </p>

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Again, without knowing anything else about the application package, the OP’s chances are roughly 1 out of 3. Wellesley overall has a 35% admit rate – students in her CR score range are admitted at a 34% rate. </p>

<p>So obviously the statement about needing a “hook” is ill-founded.</p>

<p>I would note that in 2005 I was advised by a well-known admissions counselor (informally, via this board & email), that my daughter should “not bother” applying to Barnard because they “wouldn’t even look” at a student with a score below 1400. I knew that the admissions counselor who gave that “advice” was dead wrong, because if that were true, then the median score range at Barnard and similar schools would have been tilted much higher. Obviously the colleges do accept a significant percentage of students with weaker scores, including the one-fourth of all applicants who, like my daughter, have test scores in the bottom quartile.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much, everyone.
Also, I apologize for my slip in vocabulary… it obviously hit a couple nerves.</p>

<p>I have applied ED, and I’m not exactly sure I have a “hook”. The most I could say is that I am a female interested in pursuing the sciences. In every other academic area I have achieved I have performed fairly well. (Top 6% of my class, 3.8 GPA)</p>

<p>calmom- Thank you for telling me about your daughter, it relieves at least a bit of my worry.</p>

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<p>Some of those 40% of kids who have hooks are stellar candidates. My older son for example was no doubt helped by his legacy status at Harvard, but none of his stats were in the bottom 25% of the class.</p>

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<p>You don’t need a “hook”, Xani… you need a profile that the school likes.</p>

<p>By that I mean that the application needs to have the sort of information that might make you stand out in an interesting kind of way from the applicant pool – or make it clear that you are a good fit for what Wellesley needs and wants among its students. It’s hard to know what that might be – but that’s why I said it is important to focus on strengths. </p>

<p>I’d note that colleges look at scores “in context”. One reason that I don’t think my daughter’s scores kept her out of top colleges is that her scores are NOT weak when compared against her high school’s overall profile. The admissions committee wants to see diversity in their class, including geographic diversity, and they do not expect to see the same scores from an applicant from a public school in Georgia as they might from an applicant from a private prep school in Connecticut. </p>

<p>That’s one reason that the “advice” on CC is so skewed. This board is dominated by competitive high achievers who place a high value on the test scores – they compare notes with others and whenever someone with weaker scores doesn’t get into their top choice college they assume (without evidence) that it must be the test score, and whenever someone with weaker scores does get accepted, they rationalize (again without evidence) that it must be due to a “hook” or “affirmative action”. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that ED potentially gives you a 2nd chance. You might be accepted (yippee!) - but you could also be deferred. (My daughter was deferred EA from Chicago – I thought she would be disappointed at the time, but she actually was overjoyed that she hadn’t been rejected). </p>

<p>If you are deferred, then you probably have an opportunity to submit supplemental material. That, in combination with strong first semester grades, may be what is needed to put you over the top. (That’s what happened with my daughter’s Chicago app.) Certainly you have let Wellesley know that it is your first choice school.</p>

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<p>I learned about the hooked during my years working in college admissions, but since that was in the dark ages, here’s a current expert on the subject:</p>

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<p>[Dirty</a> Secrets of College Admissions - The Daily Beast](<a href=“http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-01-09/dirty-secrets-of-college-admissions/full/]Dirty”>The Daily Beast: The Latest in Politics, Media & Entertainment News)</p>

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<p>Without a hook, and applying ED is not one, this would not be her correct statistical chance. It also wouldn’t be with a hook for that matter!</p>

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<p>My D looked at Wellesley a few years ago and we know a couple of young women there. You are applying ED there? They typically accept roughly 100 students ED. </p>

<p>It is a very selective applicant pool because, Wellesley, it seems, more than any other of the “sister” schools (which we also looked at) attracts a uniquely driven type of student. It is (and I am not stereotyping or knocking it) full of overscheduled type A’s who are also into giving back. You will find many opportunities for internships, employment and volunteerism. It is a beautiful place with a tremendously supportive alumnae network and some wonderful and very accessible professors. Some people find it a bit isolating but there is definitely opportunity to get involved with students and organizations at other area schools–Olin, Babson, MIT and Harvard. It is a great school with much to offer, but the atmosphere is not for everyone. Not everyone ends up happily ever after there. I hope you have spent some time there since you are doing ED and are fully aware of the culture. My D liked Wellesley a lot --in spite of itself!</p>

<p>Even though your SAT scores are in the 600-700 range, that in and of itself will not put you in the auto-reject pile. It also will not put you at the top of the “you’re in” pile. The truth is that no one can tell you what your chances are. And it’s hard to guess without actually reading your app. My best guess is that with unremarkable test scores, essays and perceived “promise” will be emphasized. (By the way, another tidbit, Wellesley sometimes uses student readers in admissions.) So much of this process is subjective that I think a reader has to get a sense of who you are, like you, and feel that you will not just succeed there, but also bring something to the community before they put you in the admit pile. Maybe full pay is a plus in this economy–they’ve definitely streamlined the budget there–though they say they are still fully committed to need blind admissions.</p>

<p>I know Wellesley promotes women in the sciences (as do all the sister schools.) There is a great emphasis on research for science majors, and some pretty good facilities, too. </p>

<p>I do recall my D receiving a brochure from them where they published the average SAT scores of admitted students. This may have changed in the last couple of years but they were definitely in the high 600 range at that time. My D was surprised by that. I thought it might have to do with the fact that they have a fairly sizeable international population (10%) and also support lower income students (especially through QuestBridge) with need blind admissions.</p>

<h2>As you say, you have applied now, so all you can do is wait a few weeks until they release decisions. I don’t think it’s hopeless; I’d say you have a fair shot–if not ED, then maybe RD? Good luck and don’t give yourself an ulcer–there are many great schools out there and some will surely accept you.</h2>

<p>And, honestly, I don’t know why people do these “chance me” threads…ask some questions, get some advice, but “chance me” is like asking for a tarot card reading!</p>

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<p>The point is that SAT scores are not looked at in a vacuum. Calmom should probably get off her high horse, because in spite of her self-proclaimed grasp of statistics, she apparently doesn’t understand the application of them very well either. Having a score that is in the range where 1 in 3 are admitted does not imply that an applicant has a 1 in 3 chance of admission, regardless of what we know about the rest of the application. This is because we simply don’t know how much of the determination is given to the SAT score; how much is causation vs correlation. Think about it … even if the SAT scores of applicants were kept hidden from the adcoms, there would still be some percentage of admits in each score range. But what would that imply about admission chances? Nothing. </p>

<p>What you probably can infer from SAT scores is that if you have a score that is below the median, you probably need to have some mitigating factor(s) to offset that difference, and that mitigating factor(s) can be any of many that the adcoms value. What you can’t expect is to present yourself as “average” in all areas, with a below average SAT, and expect to have an “average” chance at admission.</p>

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<p>First of all: CC definitely slightly exaggerates the difficulty of getting into top tier schools. But that’s just realism/slight pessimism, not absurdity. </p>

<p>Nobody can know your chances of getting into Wellesley based on that score alone. I agree with another poster who said it doesn’t hurt you, but it doesn’t help you either. </p>

<p>Your GPA and hopefully rigorous academic schedule will be a plus (APs, right?). Being interested in science is a plus. Are you very involved? Can you write killer essays? Can you make yourself stand out in other ways?</p>

<p>All of these things play a factor. I’m convinced SAT isn’t make/break, but if you don’t have that strength there, you need to have a strength somewhere else, of course :).</p>

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<p>Part of the problem with interpreting standardized test ranges for highly selective universities is that, below a threshhold, the large majority of those students often have some type of hook. That threshhold level will differ according to college, but it’s pretty clear that someone applying to a highly selective college with standardized test scores at the 25th percentile sure as heck better have a lot of other good stuff on their app.</p>

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<p>Hmom, your source for the 40% figure is the same misguided “expert” who told me that my daughter was wasting her time to apply to Barnard because they “wouldn’t even look” at anyone with her scores. It is a person with a vested financial interest in making the admission process seem more competitive than it really is.</p>

<p>Half of Wellesley’s admitted class has score ranges in line with the OP’s. </p>

<p>The “statistical chance” of admission for any given student to Wellesley is whatever Wellesley’s admit rate is, which happens to be 36%. The ED admit rate for Wellesley is around 50%. </p>

<p>Obviously with more information in hand, an individual’s chance of admission might be re-evaluated and some have slightly better chances of admission, some have slightly worse. But for any single factor, I do mean “slight”. So if the rest of the OP’s package is strong, then maybe she’s got a 40% chance of admission on ED and someone with a similar profile but higher test scores has a 60% chance. But if I see that there’s a 40% chance of rain when I go out… I carry an umbrella. That’s a big number. </p>

<p>What the score-obsessed crowd at CC does not account for is the fact that a significant percentage of applicants are rejected because they are not even in the running. We know, for example, that roughly 3800 students applied to Wellesley for the class of 2013 and submitted SAT scores; of that, almost 1,000 (25%) had SAT Critical Reading scores of 590 or below. But the acceptance rate for that group was roughly 10% – and of 236 who applied with a score below 500, only 2 (1%) were accepted. </p>

<p>If you DROP those 590 & below scorers from the applicant pool, and just look at acceptance rates for students in the 600+ range, the overall admission rate jumps to 44%. (And that’s RD – who knows what happens if you drop low scorers out of the ED pool). </p>

<p>Bottom line: Wellesley’s numbers are CLEAR that OP’s scores are within the range for that school. Roughly half of Wellesley’s admitted students come from students with similar scores or below. </p>

<p>We can’t know a precise statistical number – but if we are evaluating “chances” based on scores, then I’d have to put OP at 40%+ when I factor in the ED status. I’d have to know a lot more about her and Wellesley’s institutional needs to say more than that. But to say that an ED student with her scores needs some sort of “hook” is simply wrong – the numbers tell a different story.</p>