Overexaggerated Importance?

2collegewego · November 4, 2009, 2:34am

I do think scores are important-- but they’re only one part of the picture. I have one kid who had scores but not the grades to back them up. College admissions results were depressing. I had another kid who had a lot to offer with solid grades (not outstanding-- but very good course rigor) but didn’t have the SAT scores one would expect. That kid did well on admissions results and, by the way, Calmom was the one person who sent me a private message and predicted it. She is saying-- like everyone else-- that you need to bring something the school wants to the table… but, in the end, doesn’t everyone?

Honestly, these things are very hard to predict. You are in the ballpark but not a definite admit.

What other schools are you considering? If things don’t go as well as you would have liked, some of the other women’s colleges-- Smith, Bryn Mawr-- may be good options for you also.

kantianethicist · November 4, 2009, 2:44am

^^ I never said anyone was making anything up.

I was not sugar coating either.

I already suggested the possibility to the OP of a retake in December. I was not telling her one way or another what she should do–that is up to her.

In this case, I did not believe that the SAT would follow her, so I did not consider it to be a fact.

I based my assumption on looking at all of the OP’s other posts and finding out what her attributes were that she did not disclose in this thread.

She was obviously nervous since others consistently implied that her scores weren’t good enough.

There is nothing wrong with treating someone else’s child with sensitivity and tact as long as you are being honest and helpful as well, --which I was.

I meant no disrespect to any other poster on this thread–I was merely concerned about a nervous young lady’s feelings.

calmom · November 4, 2009, 3:08am

Er, my kid also got into U of Chicago, which has a slightly higher median score range than Barnard. It’s not a “womans college thing”.

My daughter had some strengths and some weaknesses, but nothing that I think you would categorize as “very significant”. I’m pretty sure if you had seen her profile, you would have reacted the same as you are now with the OP - you’d see the test scores, its highly unlikely that you would recognize the factors that led to my d’s admission, because there is nothing that fits the CC idea of a “hook”.

But your assumption is an example of “confirmation bias”. If you believe that a person must have above-median scores to get into a selective college and hear of a student admitted with significantly lower scores, you assume that there must be some special hook or extraordinary circumstance to explain it.

At Wellesley there is a pretty big fall off in admission rates for students with cumulative scores about 150-200 points BELOW the OP’s. We KNOW that because Wellesley has published its numbers. The OP’s scores (unlike my daughter’), are NOT below the 25th percent mark for her school – they are within range, albeit on the lower end of the mid-50 range. So we know that statistically her chances are just about “average” among Wellesley applicants. (Or to put it another way, she has very typical scores for a Wellesley applicant, and her CR score is just at the mean for admitted students.). If she had significantly higher scores, it might boost her chances – but presenting with TYPICAL scores will probably be a nonfactor in admissions.

She will get a boost because she is applying ED. She’s got a strong SAT II in biology and is leaning towards a bio major, which is helpful. I’ve looked at her other posts in a chances thread and identified a couple of other points that might make her an attractive candidate, depending on how they were presented in her application.

I don’t know if she will get in or not. I think her chances are pretty good, but she isn’t a shoe-in – so I wouldn’t be surprised either way. Since the Wellesley ED admit rate is about 50% – I’d put the OP’s “chances” at around that level – 50%.

calmom · November 4, 2009, 3:20am

They don’t. They really don’t.

If a college grad goes to a job interview and is asked for the SAT score… I’d take that as a very bad sign – because it would mean that in 4 years of college, the student didn’t manage to do anything impressive enough to have a prospective employer focusing on his college academic or work record.

tk21769 · November 4, 2009, 4:48am

I was finding it hard to remain mute on this one. Thanks m.s., you beat me to it.

Yeah, to hear the talk sometimes, you’d think “legacies” at elite colleges are a breed of mutant, inbred hillbillies who can barely spell.

mythmom · November 4, 2009, 8:18am

Hi.

OP: Why not apply to the other women’s colleges too? No one is a shoo-in at any selective school. For example, there are those kids who are accepted at Harvard and rejected at Yale, and those whose experience is the opposite.

A good friend of ours wanted to attend Columbia. Her mom insisted she apply to another ivy, “just in case.” Yup. Rejected at Columbia, accepted at Harvard. She was disappointed (LOL) but now that’s she’s in med school, it’s a moot point. (LOL.)

Personally I liked the Friend’s episode in which Joey refers to something trivial as “a moo point, as in something a cow thinks.” Rachel says, “Am I crazy, or is he starting to make sense?”

I also like calmon’s use of her daughter’s experience to reach out and encourage others. She is emphatically not saying that the OP is a shoo-in. She is saying, “Give it a shot.”

If I had to guess, I would say Wellesley is more stats driven than Barnard, but so what? This stats are in Wellesley’s stated range.

And now back to my original point. If it were my girl, I would encourage her to apply to the other four “sisters” as well.

Good luck!!!

je_ne_sais_quoi · November 4, 2009, 10:35am

I can share my daughter’s experience applying to Wellesley in 2008.

Like the OP, she was also interested in majoring in biology.

She took the PSAT (NMS) but not the SAT. Her three SAT IIs were all just shy of 800, including Biology.

When she applied, she had all 5’s on her AP exams, including Biology. (Her only 4 on nine AP exams was one portion of Economics. National AP Scholar.)

ACT 34/35. She took it twice, different scores on subtests so she submitted both.

All A’s, all terms, at a competitive high school, taking the most demanding curriculum offered, including AP Physics, AP Calculus, AP Economics (both micro and macro). HS doesn’t rank.

1st Place State Science Olympiad meet in Genetics. Team co-captain.

College psychobiology lab experience.

Varsity Scholastic Bowl team.

Elected to three HS honor societies: NHS, Cum Laude, Quill & Scroll

Literary magazine editor; published pieces.

Other ECs: Varsity Lacrosse goalie, 2nd degree Black Belt Tae Kwon Do, First chair French horn, audition-based choir – toured internationally. Organized and participated in annual fund-raiser for charity.

Essay seemed solid, reviewed by published AP English teacher.

Recs written by HS top letter-writers, two of three were PhD’s, including one from her AP Biology teacher.

At Wellesley, we toured, attended an info session, and she interviewed.

She applied Early Evaluation (or whatever it’s called there) and was placed in the middle category. She then submitted an additional essay, most recent grades (all A’s in all AP classes) and another rec letter.

We needed financial aid. No legacy.

In the end, she was waitlisted. It surprised her. She thought she had what they looked for. She wondered if SAT instead of ACT scores would have made a difference. Prior to applying, Wellesley claimed it didn’t matter.

That’s her experience. Take it for what it’s worth.

I echo mythmom’s advice to look at the other sisters. Mount Holyoke has a wonderful science curriculum, as does Smith.

MHC doesn’t require test scores. They are also optional at Smith. Both have state-of-the-art science facilities. Smith’s is brand new, just opened, and is truly exceptional.

ellemenope · November 4, 2009, 10:47am

^I would have been surprised, too, to have been waitlisted. Just goes to show you that sometimes there is no shoo-in nor “shoo-out”.

Do you think that the combination of being in the “middle category” and needing fin aid led to a waitlist decision? Did she go on the waitlist?

je_ne_sais_quoi · November 4, 2009, 10:58am

ellemenope: Yes, she did go on the waitlist. As for why, your guess is as good as mine.

ellemenope · November 4, 2009, 11:01am

D1 had a similar experience when she applied to colleges 6 years ago–the same application yielded surprise acceptances and surprise rejections. Agree that without a “fly on the wall” perspective into the adcom meetings, we are all left scratching our heads.

qialah · November 4, 2009, 1:31pm

I think it’s surprising that Wellesley rejects 50% of women with 750-800 Math SATs given their science emphasis. Obviously something more than scores is going on.

mythmom · November 4, 2009, 2:52pm

The kids with high scores often seem to have the most unpredictable results. I don’t know if yield management is a feature.

I also started to suspect that there is significant “fit” discussions taking place at LAC’s. DS had accepted at Williams, Vassar, Wesleyan, Bowdoin. Wait listed: Amherst. So far so good. Amherst is smaller, even lower admit rate. Whatever. But here was the surprise: Rejected: Bates. Huh? That was the safety.

The conclusion? Cast the net wide. As the fish of Wellesley swims away, the fish of Smith swims into the net.

And if the adcom wants the student, perhaps the fit is better. Who knows?

My S’s best buy friend ended up at Bates (lower stats, was admitted) and is ecstatic there. From what he’s said S wouldn’t have been. Maybe they did know something. Maybe they thought him too high powered or not likely to come. I’m not sure. I am thrilled that his friend is so happy there. Alex is a great kid. And S is happy at Williams.

All the five sisters offer outstanding educations and outstanding science educations. Even Barnard, probably the least associated with science, once trained half the female pre-meds in the country and had the most female PhD’s in chem.

And yes, the environments of these schools differ, but I think most women could acclimate themselves to any of the five. I’d like to believe that my D could have, though she was lucky enough to end up at her favorite.

I am not a fan of stats review of separate likelies, safeties and reaches. It just did not work that way for us. The results were too unpredictable.

blossom · November 4, 2009, 3:14pm

Calmom, my employer asks all candidates for professional positions their SAT scores. Like it or not, it is a fact. Contrary to your post, it is neither a bad sign nor a good sign- we ask it of everyone; we have reams of statistical data to prove that it’s a relevant selection criterion (not the only criterion but one of many); we also ask college GPA (not HS) and work record (of course.)

Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it disappear- and doesn’t invalidate that at some point, many of today’s HS or college kids will be asked their SAT score. I was being considered for another job with another company last summer and buried midway through the interview process was… ta da… SAT scores. And I took them in 1974! (Long before my interviewer was born, I can assure you.)

So you can say- oh gee, I would never want my kid to work for a company which asks their scores. But this was a small, well regarded organization which has a reputation for hiring brilliant but iconoclastic people (I am neither) and although I didn’t get the job, I would not have wanted my SAT scores or the lack thereof to have precluded my being considered- even in late middle age, someone wanted a datapoint about how I did on a standardized test 35 years ago.

bovertine · November 4, 2009, 3:28pm

^^^^All candidates? Even a candidate for vice-president of the company? Well, everybody sets their own standards, but if anyone asked me for my SAT scores (or college grades for that matter) after I had more than a few years work experience I think Id walk out. Ive been to and conducted quite a few interviews over my 30 year career, and the only time I ever got asked my scores was applying for a part time job as an SAT tutor.

blossom · November 4, 2009, 3:47pm

Bovertine, this job was a SVP role- I wasn’t offended since my current employer asks everyone their scores so I know the drill. Many senior candidates do get offended; some don’t remember; some assure us that their 25 years of achievement more than outweigh their performance on a single test taken many years ago.

Very true. But just as there is no single indicator of whether the guy you are dating is going to be a good marriage partner or good father-- you would probably advise your niece or daughter to look at lots of different factors, there is no single datapoint which tells an employer whether an employee would be a good fit.

But lots of different factors, interpreted appropriately, can help improve the odds of a good hire tremendously. And for all of you who decry the elitist hiring practices and the “old boys network” in place in corporate America- the use of data to drive hiring decisions, vs. “my college roommate plays squash with this guy and said he’s the brightest guy to ever graduate from Dartmouth” should be greatly preferred. My own company has all employees go through the same hiring process-- it eliminates the “CEO’s idiot nephew syndrome” when all candidates- regardless of source- have to jump the same hurdles.

My first job out of business school I had to take a standardized test developed and administered by the company. They’ve had court challenges that the test is discriminatory but they’ve won. The test discriminates against those who cannot do college level and graduate school level math which the court found was a reasonable criterion based on the requirements of the job.

calmom · November 4, 2009, 3:50pm

Blossom, if an employer asked me for my test scores… I’d refuse to provide them. (My scores were pretty good by the standards at the time - though the SAT has been rescaled since then, and LSATs are now graded by an entirely different numerical system). I’d put that in the category of none of their business. Although I do not currently practice law, I’d be particularly offended if an employer asked the LSAT score, because I graduated from a top 10 law school and I am a member in good standing of my state bar. The State Bar exam is a pass/fail test, for good reason – the only people who ever find out their scores are those who fail. (They are given score information to help them prepare for subsequent testing).

My son had great SAT scores and was a National Merit scholar, and a degree from a CSU. My daughter has lousy scores and will magna cum laude degree from Columbia University - same major as my son. (Don’t want to revive the Barnard v. Columbia debate, but bottom line that’s the deal she signed up for). So why should she tell anyone her standardized test scores? Somehow I don’t think she would be at a competitive disadvantage against some kid like my son (though my son also has a killer resume, despite the Podunk U degree – but my kids accumulated an impressive level of work experience and internships along the way).

It goes back to what I said about the application process – focus on strengths. She’s got a dynamite resume – great jobs & internships, world travel, proficiency in a second language, a couple of academic awards. She’ll focus on that.

Somehow I don’t think she is going to be at a competitive disadvantage with the kids with higher scores and lower grades.

blossom · November 4, 2009, 4:01pm

To each his own. We don’t get a subpeona and come to your house and rip open your attic to find your old records.

But scores and grades are different; scores are a good way to help evaluate the smart kid who ended up at a no-name Bible college in Kentucky because his parents didn’t have the dough to send him to Columbia. Why should that kid spend his life apologizing for growing up poor? And why should your kid spent her life apologizing for her scores? They are what they are- one data-point among many.

Life would be really easy if every got stamped with a single number out of college which was the accumulation of every thing a prospective employer needed to know. But life doesn’t work that way, and the many employers that your D is likely to meet in her life are going to want to learn as much about her as they can- legally-- in order to make a decision about her. Would you rather they made that decision on the basis of her last name? (Too whatever- choose your ethnic or religious stereotype). On the basis of her looks? (like the airlines did 40 years ago-- if you decide Black women don’t look “perky” and “perky” is your hiring criterion, it gives you a good reason never to hire Black women.) On the basis of her gender? (“if we hire and train her she’ll just find a husband and get pregnant so it’s not worth it”) etc. Understand that in the days before companies used data like standardized test scores, hiring was all about screening out the folks who “aren’t like us”. You think that’s better???

beawinner · November 4, 2009, 4:02pm

My older D had stats similar to yours plus played a varsity sport and did tons of extracurriculars including speech/debate, hospital volunteering, etc. Did not get the result she wanted in admissions but is happy where she landed. I encourage you to work on your essay and make it as meaningful and passionate as you can and also have trained pairs of eyes reviewing and editing before you submit. Good luck.

coureur · November 4, 2009, 4:05pm

Of course the tests are discriminatory. That’s the whole idea behind all tests - to discriminate between those who can do well on the test and those who can’t.

mythmom · November 4, 2009, 4:08pm

Wow. I wish someone would ask me my SAT scores, and my GRE scores. I took the GRE’s in 1973, so that tells you something.

They really rocked, and no one cares!!! Haha. Yes, I understand both calmom and blossom. I don’t mean to be flip, but it IS disappointing that I can’t earn points anywhere with my test scores. Or my GPA for that matter, which was also awesome!

Instead, I think the relevant figure is my weight, and that is visible without my revealing anything. And I don’t think such a high number there is particularly helpful. (LOL, understatement.)

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