<p>Just wondering if anyone with an appointment has done the overnight visit yet and if not, when they were thinking about taking it?</p>
<p>Our son received his appointment and plans to do the overnight visit at West Point next week. Although he did the summer seminar, we wanted to see West Point in winter and during the school year. Will let you know his impressions later.</p>
<p>My daughter has decided not to do the overnight visit (even with lots of encouragement from parents). Her feeling is that even if it would be a terrible experience, she is not changing her mind. This is what she's doing. (I bring it up at least once a week.)</p>
<p>MomofTwins---
got the same issue with my daughter---she's made up her mind and well, you know how that goes! I'm sure they'll both be fine.</p>
<p>I am just kind of wondering how this opportunity could turn out to be a "terrible experience?"</p>
<p>Big difference between summer seminar and the real life of a plebe. Given a 25% attrition, it doesn't appear that everyone embraces it. Rigid lifestyle, harsh climate.</p>
<p>Fortunately, there are many other sources of information. Having followed Shogun's progress through these boards, I have no doubt his D has been exposed to them.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone is implying it would be a "bad experience". There are just a lot of factors to weigh when deciding to do an overnight visit--particularly when one must travel 2800 miles to do it. It's not even the expense so much as the logistics of traveling so for for what would amount to being a VERY short weekend. If it's at all possible to go I think one should. In my daughter's particular case it's just not feasible. We've even come to realize that her coming home for the long Thanksgiving weekends would entail more traveling for her than real relaxing time off with family so we are arranging to have the holiday in Cincinatti with relatives and the wife will fly out there to be with her. This way her travel time is only a a couple of hours vs all day each way and she can have more time to relax.</p>
<p>I did the overnight visit and I highly recommend it. I got a chance to go to some classes, eat with the cadets, and talked with a lot of different cadets. One upperclassmen tried to haze me, but the plebe I was with told him that they are not supposed to haze the candidates. So, besides that, it went really well and it helped me solidify my decision to attend West Point.
I think it would be better to do the overnight stay and find out if this place is right for you, than find out on R-Day that you want to go home. This really gave me a good idea of how life is like at West Point.</p>
<p>As I stated previously, our son will visit WP next week. He has accepted his appointment and does not have any doubts about going. His reason was simple, he liked WP last summer and wants to visit again. He also said he wanted to see WP in winter to know what he's in for (we live in a warmer climate). My wife and I are also going since we have not seen WP previously.</p>
<p>Will give you our son's and our impressions after our visit.</p>
<p>Aspen
Hope your son has a great trip--let us know how it went!</p>
<p>Jim</p>
<p>Let me clarify what I meant by a "terrible experience". The overnight visit was presented as an opportunity to solidify a decision to accept an appointment. It is also an opportunity to see reality (as opposed to IAW). My daughter has conducted a lot of her own research. She is in communication with current cadets, has talked to alums, and has attended IAW. She has read several books and watched any special we can find on the subject. </p>
<p>She has heard that some high school students visit and are surprised by what they find. This could be because they really do not know what they are getting into. This may result in a decision not to accept an appointment. She is so convinced that if she saw boorish behavior, harsh hazing or poor educators it would not deter her. So she would rather not spend the money and would prefer to study and run. (Of course I'm dying to visit and am disappointed that I have to wait until R-day to see WP.)</p>
<p>Aspen,</p>
<p>I can't wait to hear about your trip. Too bad I can't use the weather as a motivator to visit. We're very used to lousy midwestern winters.</p>
<p>Returned last night from the WP overnight visit with our son. Our son had a great visit and came home more convinced about his choice to attend WP.</p>
<p>Here's a summary of my observations as well as our son's.</p>
<p>We all gathered at the Admin office about 8am on Thursday. Everyone sat in a room until a first year cadet came to escort the visiting candidates. There were about 6 candidates visiting. One for a day visit, the others for an overnight visit. Each candidate has his/her own escort.</p>
<p>I will give you our son's impresssions first and then conclude with a description of the parent's program and my impressions.</p>
<p>Our son was taken to the barracks to drop off his bag and then went with his escort to classes. He had lunch in Washington Hall with all 4000 cadets and then back to classes until about 3 o'clock. Right after lunch a chemistry exam was administered to the entire plebe class. Our son was told to read a book or take a nap. He said the plebes found chemistry one of the toughest first year classes.</p>
<p>After classes, he went with his escort to the pistol range since his escort is in the pistol club. Had a great time firing the air and 22 cal. pistols. After activities, they returned to the barracks and got ready for dinner. Thursday is the only day when all cadets are required to gather for dinner together. Other nights it is optional. Had some theme dinner where all cadets wore civilian T-shirts rather than uniforms. Would recommend doing visit during the second part of week so that they get to do the Thursday dinner.</p>
<p>After dinner, it was study time until lights-out. I was surprised to learn that this time,at least after first semester, is pretty open for the cadets. The cadets told our son that some nights were total "hell" and that they had to violate lights out to get their work done. Other nights were pretty open and the cadets socialized and watch tv/videos on their computers. Our son spent the night chatting with various plebes and watching South Park videos on the computer with other cadets in the barracks. Lights went out at 11:30. Wakeup was about 5:30 -6 am followed by breakfast. No required PT in the morning. Then it was back to classes until lunch. After lunch our son was dropped off at the admin. office.</p>
<p>Our son thought the overnight visit gave a more realistic view of cadet life than the summer seminar. Also the time with the plebes provided him first hand knowledge/advice on what was in store for him during his first year. He said the plebes were friendly and all told him that the first semester was horrible but that they were glad they stuck it out. They told him to join a club or varisity sport if possible since it got you out of a lot of duties.</p>
<p>Parents were shown two videos on the WP experience and then had a 45 min. briefing and question/answer session with Maj. Green of the Admin. Office. He did a great job of stressing the importance of making a committment to a carreer, not just a college selection. He said about 8% of plebes drop out during Beast and another 5% by Christmas. Overall drop out rate for the 4 years is 20-25%.</p>
<p>The more interesting session was the cadet presentation by a third year cadet (COW). He did an excellent job in describing his experiences and pointing out how important it is to stick out the first semester at WP. Once the first semester ends, you begin to get more priviledges and to feel more like a person rather than a serf. He stressed the importance of incoming cadets arriving in good condition. The running was the hardest for him since, although he was an athlete, he had never run 3 miles nonstop before attending WP. He also said that one of the hardest parts of adopting to WP is the transition from being a big fish in a small pond, to being one of the many minnows in the pond. He noted that some cadets refuse to accept being second best and worked extra hard to be the best at WP - and succeed. Others try, burn out and drop out. The majority of the cadets, himself included, take a more moderate approach and conclude that being second best within the corps of cadets is still a pretty elite position. </p>
<p>The families were then taken on a tour led by a second year cadet. She gave a great tour and discussed her struggles as a plebe. She came to WP out of the army and is several years older than the average cadet. Like the other cadets, her first semester was horrible and she wanted to drop out. However the other cadets encouraged her to stay and she now loves the place. We toured the classrooms, dining hall, library and the barrack area. It was impressive seeing the cadets assemble for lunch and see 4000 cadets take their dinning places within 5 minutes. The joke at West Point is that if the building is on fire and needs to be evacuated, don't yell "fire", yell "lunchtime". Our tour ended about noon. We were free to tour the campus after that although the barrack areas were off limits. As we strolled the campus it was an incredible feeling having 1200 plebes walk right by you from the barracks to their chemistry exam in total silence. Quite a contrast to the free-form, everything goes atmosphere seen at the traditional american univerisity campus.</p>
<p>I had several overall impressions about the cadets we saw. All of them projected confidence and pride in being part of the corp of cadets and their ability to weather the first semester. The cadets looked happy despite their tendency to gripe. They were much more informal (normal) than I expected. Sure there were the "yes, sir's" and "no, mam's" but I guess I was expecting a more militaristic speech pattern. Also, the sense of comraderie is pronounced. Finally, the cadets are fully aware that they are living a very different lifestyle than their non-academy peers. Several cadets said it was difficult visiting with their high school buddies during breaks since their friends can't relate to the West Point experience and have a hard time understanding why anyone would voluntarily submit to it. </p>
<p>Sorry this went on so long. Guess I got carried away.
I would be happy to answer any specific questions.</p>
<p>Do you think that cadets were told to downplay the negatives? From your description of it, it didn't sound like it was that bad. However, my brother's description (Naval Academy not West Point, but I would imagine it's the same thing), it was much, much worse than that.</p>
<p>Aspen - </p>
<p>That was great. Thank you so much.</p>
<p>Tyleroar:</p>
<p>I don't think the cadets intentionally downplayed the negatives. All of them were very candid about how awfull the first semester was. </p>
<p>It may be that once you've been through the first semester, the remaining years seem much better; even though someone on the outside looking in would say the remaining years are pretty harsh as well.</p>
<p>I had no idea cadets had so much freedom, in terms of doing what they want after dinner (be it studying or TV) and not even having to eat dinner together nightly. Does all of this happen after the 1st semester? I assumed that they were on a rigid schedule of everything from wake up time to class time to extra-currics to studying to bed. For example, I didn't realize that staying up late was an option.</p>
<p>aj725: The cadets were consistent in their comment that life after first semester was very different than the time from R-day to semester break. During the first semester "life sucked big time" and they said that they were not allowed much freedom.</p>
<p>Let me clarify my comment about staying up past lights-out. Going to bed at lights-out is not optional. However, one of the cadets said he took the chance of getting caught in order to do some extra studying. Several also told about having to do "hours" ( used to be called "lines" where you march back and forth outside the barrack for an hour(s)) for violating various rules.</p>
<p>My personal observation is that, after the first semester, the proscribed lifestyle of the WP Cadet is somewhat more rigid than the actual cadet lifestyle. If you read the "Long Grey Line" and "Absolutely American", you realize that, regardless of the consequences, young adults seem to find a way to excercise some freedoms.</p>
<p>Since the cadets themselves told you/your son that the first semester was hell, did they happen to talk about how they coped with school? Meaning, there is so much going on just with day to day life in the first semester--everything from taking orders to adapting to the daily regiment. Does school and classwork take a backseat? </p>
<p>I know they have set study times but I'm not sure how much one can concentrate at night after the mental and physical exhaustion of the entire day. To me it seems inevitable that the first semester is about coping with life at WP and just getting by in school, and then the 2nd semester onward, when you are more used to the environment, you can bear down and concentrate on getting high grades. All assumption on my part, any clue if this really happens? Did you pick up any insight about classes/grades from the cadets?</p>
<p>Aj725:</p>
<p>Your assumptions are on the mark. Top priority during first semester is survival. Some exceptional cadets may excel during this period but most just try to hang on and make it through.</p>
<p>One third year cadet we talked to said his grades were bad the first year (just over 2.0) and were now 3.2. He said the low grades were quite a shock since he had always done well in school. During the first year he said there were many times when he had more homework to do than time to do it. He had to pick which subject to "take a hit" on a particular test or assignment. Later, he learned which teachers checked homework and which didn't and adjusted accordingly.</p>
<p>Another cadet(National Merit Finalist) said he had "validated" the entry economics course and was placed in an advanced economics course which "kicked his butt" and he almost failed. Advised that new cadets should be careful about which courses they validate. Several plebes said that chemistry was the hardest first year course.</p>
<p>Despite the above, all the cadets and admissions people stressed that there is a lot of support available to help cadets with courses and that it was very rare for a cadet to drop out for academic reasons. They said that teachers were readily available for help at night and on weekends if needed. In contrast to some universities, the WP teachers' number one priority is the success of the cadets.</p>