Overwhelmed

Parents Forum
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<p>EK--generally speaking, where you went to law school can affect what "tier" of law firm at which you can hope to get a job. The salary difference of associates at the different tier of law firms can be quite a lot (for example, niece STARTED her law career at a salary of $120K). </p>

<p>And if you want to be a Supreme Court justice, you are better off having gone to H, Y or S law school than SMU!</p>

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<p>I think the key is starting early so that you'll have the time to both save AND invest. It is hard to save the kind of money needed to pay full freight at a $40K school--the money you save has to work for you over the years.</p>

<p>And, as Coureur says, good fortune is also a big part of the equation--keeping the income stream intact through continued employment, keeping the expenses down through avoiding ruinous health expenses, and having the stock market go your way during crucial times--none of which you can always control.</p>

<p>Although it is nice to be able to have your kid's college money "in the bank" by the time they are high school seniors, most of the families I know pay for college with a combination of parent loans, kid loans, savings, kid summer work, parental income flow (including a previously non-working spouse taking a job). That, and carefully choosing which college the kid attends. . .</p>

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<p>I realize that justices often do select their clerks from a certain tier of law school, but I do not buy the excuse that because they attended blank undergrad they were not able to get into country day law school.
I know lots of people who went to nondescript undergrad and went to Ivy grad or professional school ( and the only way I know that for most of them is because I looked up their curriculum vitae- not that they wear the lapel pin)
I even know someone who attended what is considered to be a lower tier public college and was part of the Presidents Cabinet.
As they say its not how big- its what you do with it ;)</p>

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<p>Nightingale, I think you and I might be from the same state.</p>

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<p>Before you completely dismiss public colleges, take a look at where the faculty got their degrees. The average SAT scores might not be as high as those at the most competitive schools, but that just makes it easier for the 'hump busting' student to shine.</p>

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<p>Well, yes and no. You can certainly get into an Ivy grad or professional school from a 3rd tier undergrad, but those same Ivy grad programs will take a much deeper cut into the graduating classes from themselves and other elite colleges. These numbers ilustrate the point:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As you can see, there are a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier colleges that managed to get one or two kids into Harvard Law School, but the ones that got admissions in the double and triple digits are all elite private and top-of-the-line state schools. So I'd say that Ivy grad admission from a 3rd tier school is possible, but you better be among the top one or two students in your entire college.</p>

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<p>Not necessarily. It's still possible to get a great education at a school that isn't ultra-selective. I'm a believer in bright kids hanging out with bright kids, so I'd suggest looking at the top 10 or 20% of who the colleges admit (if you can). Will there be a reasonably sized group of kids whose academics match or exceed your child's? Is there an honors college or academic dorm? Even in a mixed environment, bright, motivated kids tend to find each other.</p>

<p>Going to a less selective college also provides a better opportunity to shine academically, particularly for a student who's more in the B+ range.</p>

<p>A college that looks "average" on the surface may well provide a superior experience.</p>

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<p>I agree with you, EK, that Ivy grad and professional schools take from all sorts of undergrad schools. Actually, it is quite instructive to look at the Harvard Law School admissions info, and see which undergrad schools the new admittes went to. There are some schools that even Carolyn may not have heard of!</p>

<p>But law school admissions are much like college admissions--the kind of undergrad school you came from dictates how deep into the pool the law school will dive into as they fill their class.</p>

<p>At my Ds middling high school, you basically need to be in the top 1% to get a look from the super-selective schools. If you are a star from a middling university, I think that you have a good shot at getting into an Ivy grad or professional school. These schools can skim the richest cream off the top of those who graduated from an "unheralded" university.</p>

<p>There may be one kid from Podunk U who got into Harvard Law School. But there are hundreds of kids from the undergrad Ivies who got into HLS. I suppose those lawyers you know look at figures like that and come to the conclusion (whether right or wrong) that if they had gone to a more heralded undergrad, they would have had a better chance of getting into an Ivy professional school.</p>

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<p>What Roger speaks of worked well for me. My sibs & I were all good to great students at public HS & we all went to public colleges. Most of us enrolled in honors colleges & had sufficiently "shining" college experiences that we got into the grad/professional schools of our choice (UMichigan, UCDavis, Boston College).<br>
At state Us (HI & Oregon) I found bright, interesting & motivate folks--including grad students, faculty, community leaders & other mentors in college & had a lot of leadership opportunities I loved. Graduated nearly debt-free after 7 years (college & pro school), as did my many sibs.</p>

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<p>A student can also do a year or two at the local state u. to save some $ and then transfer to somewhere they would rather be.</p>

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<p>emerald: Good point. </p>

<p>But, i guess, those lawyers were lamenting that there is a certain cachet among lawyers to be able to say, "I went to Harvard/Yale Law."</p>

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<p>Actually, I know & have known many attorneys & have yet to hear where one went to law school come up NATURALLY in any conversation, tho those prestige-mongers will doubtless work hard to throw it in, regardless. For the most part, I don't think many think about (or even know) which law school the various attorneys attended.</p>

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<p>$170,000 sounds like a lot of money (and it is)...it's scary. Even $43,000/year can sound insurmountable. </p>

<p>But try this: It's about $3,600/month, or (in my case), about $200/month in a higher mortgage payment after I took $124,000 (3 years worth of tuition at my son's Ivy)in cash out in refinancing my home mortgage. The interest will not be fully deductible (thank you, AMT!), but it's still partially deductible--</p>

<p>Or, consider the Parent Plus loan program...a year's Ivy tuition would have cost me about $450/month (last summer's numbers)...(The refi turned out to be economically a better deal, so I did that instead)...</p>

<p>Of course, $200 or $450/month in extra payments could be impossible for some families. But for many of the "hosed" it's not only possible, it's doable w/only modest changes in lifestyle/expenditures. </p>

<p>And those numbers presuppose no aid (need or merit)...hordes of kids/families get aid (need and merit) from lots of top schools--including the Ivies (who say they're only need-based and largely that's true--despite the truth of Mini's comments)...</p>

<p>Final point: I financed law school by going at night, working full-time during the day, and taking out the tuition cost in loans...repayment was a big bite out of my first-year-post-law-school salary--but by five years later, it was one of my smallest recurring bills...by the time I paid it off 15 years later, it was less than one week's cost of daycare (and today would be about 2 days of daycare)...loans for kids who badly want an expensive school are not necessarily a horrible option...</p>

<p>Maybe this will help as you consider the financial side of your options...</p>

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<p>It seems as if the thread has moved beyond the point, but I disagree that uppermiddle class students get "hosed" at every institution above the likes of Northwest Panhandle Oklahoma Community College and Technical Institute (no offense to Oklahomans). It seems like anything over $100k per year would be in the upper class (based on the earlier provided statistics), but at a number of top schools one can still get around $20k per year in need-based aid with such an income. While the other $20k per year is still a considerable chunk of change and not easily found in a yearly salary, I would say it's far from being hosed. I'm sure the financial aid offers aren't quite so generous as incomes reach $150k and $200k, but with a family income just over the $100k threshold, I was still offered around $20k in need-based aid at the handful of universities to which I applied.</p>

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<p>One of my questions is why don't the Ivies give "merit aid"? It's not like they can't afford to do so. They have billions that could make the difference for kids on the bubble, really deserving kids. Why so stingy?</p>

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<p>Maybe (cynically) because ivies don't NEED to & can still attract amazing kids who are willing to pay "full freight" or close to it? With aps at record levels, why should they change "business as usual"? As a business model (rather than an altruistic one), one can understand it--why not get whatever the market will bear? Perhaps diversity doesn't mean diverse economic circumstances & the talk & walk are actually out of sync <gasp>. This is not to say or mean that they don't accept some great full-need applicants, which they do.</gasp></p>

<p>I assume the prevailing thought at ivies is "if it ain't broken, don't fix it," & from their perspective, things are just fine as they are.</p>

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<p>They actually do give some merit aid to athletes that they want.</p>

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<p>I've heard that ivies DON'T -- but sometimes there are "alumni" scholarships. Our neighbor was a recruited women's soccer player for Brown about 20 years ago--never got a dime. A classmate of my son got an athletic scholarship from Stanford (not an ivy but close) for this 2006 year--he's a 3 sport athlete--volleyball, soccer & golf. Oh yeah, a friend's son got a miniscule $500/year scholarship for Wheaton & is playing football. (I know it's not an ivy, but they are sometimes referred to as the "Christian ivy.")</p>

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<p>some private schools including I imagine the Ivies can tweak their financial aid to include people they really want-
Take into account credit card or car loans maybe when figuring available funds? Not count 2nd homes ?
But nobody is going to have their life ruined if they don't attend an Ivy league school.
Many many schools are as good- or better- than the Ivies for the right person.
Look at the education- not the brand name-
Plus I disagree that the Ivies are stingy
nobody supposedly pay what the cost of education really is- everyone is subsidized. Those on need based aid are just subsidized a little more- but then they are better students.
By that I mean that students whose EFC indicates they do not qualify for aid at an expensive school, probably have professional, educated parents. They have had more enrichement opportunities and support than someone coming from a family of much lower income, without the same educational background.
You look at two students- both passed the high standards of acheiving entrance to Yale- a fine school, in a country full of fine schools.
The student whose parents are both attorneys, who spent his adolescence in top suburban public schools, in a nice neighborhood, and enjoyed family trips to Vienna and Grasse, will likely continue to do well at university. I hope so, he has had all the advantages to give him a good start.
But the other student, who was raised by a single mom working two jobs, who barely graduated from high school herself, and never dreamed of attending college, who feels bad about the only kind of neighborhood she can afford and the quality of the school, has without all the previous advantages, still able to attain admission to an Ivy. Once he is there, with all the resources of the Yale community, he may be able to acheive way beyond anything the first student even dreamed of.
Think of it as a bicycle race, but one student has only one pedal, yet they reach the finish line at the same time. Which one is a better athlete?</p>

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<p>The Ivy League does not give "athletic scholarships" per se. However, they have been known to give merit aid to students that they are recruiting. Brown gave a local kid $$$ to play a sport for them. I know of other examples. As far as I know, there are no such restrictions on Stanford.</p>