<p>Nightingale, the Ivies don't give merit aid for two reasons: (1) almost all of the kids accepted are worthy of merit aid...that is, they generally are the top 10% of their class, top 10% of SATs, and loads of other talents; and (2) they don't have to...plenty of students want to go to the Ivies and are able and willing to pay most or all of the tuition. Why should they offer merit aid to a highly talented student who wants to go to that school and has parents who make $250,000/year? The student will attend even without merit aid, and if he/she doesn't, there's another equally talented student who will, so they don't offer the merit aid.</p>
<p>Does this eliminate the possibility that less well off students can attend an Ivy or equally selective private U? No.</p>
<p>The reason is that instead of merit aid, the Ivies and many other highly selective privates meet 100% of demonstrated financial need. They use their endowment to offer grants, essentially a tuition discount, to qualified students who have demonstrated that their families cannot afford the full tuition load. Another way of looking at it, the financial aid provided by the Ivies is essentially "merit aid for the financially needy," where "financially needy" is defined to mean families that cannot afford to spend $40,000/year for college.</p>
<p>"There may be one kid from Podunk U who got into Harvard Law School. But there are hundreds of kids from the undergrad Ivies who got into HLS. "</p>
<p>You have to stop to think how much of this is a function of: 1) Smarter students to begin with (had they gone to Podunk, they would stand an equal chance to get in); 2. Wealth (they can imagine postponing wage earning, and don't have to take on huge debt); and 3) Family tradition and geography. What I would like to know is how many Ivy-to-Ivy undergrad-to-law students are Pell Grant recipients, or simply middle class, and compare that with students of equal academic caliber who attend Podunk (in another part of the country) for undergrad. (I suspect the comparison would not be to Ivy-grad benefit - but I don't expect we'll ever see the data.)</p>
<p>I agree with what bing said on the last page - even middle class and upper middle class people get good aid from Ivies. </p>
<p>Based on the aid I recieved from Princeton, it seems that their philosophy is that no one should undergo financial hardship to attend, but that it isn't their responsibility to make it painless either. I'm getting a little over half in aid, but 20K per year isn't small change for my family - although it is managable. We aren't going into debt, but we also need to save money. Expensive summer programs are more out of our reach than they once were - I am aware that, unless Princeton or other aid agencies are willing to pay for study abroad, for example, anything over 1K isn't reasonable right now. </p>
<p>However, I think Princeton has been incredibly fair to us. We recognize there is a price to pay for the experience I'm getting - and if it means I have to wait a few years to get to Europe, so be it. The one thing I feel really badly about is that mine and my brother's education might force my dad to teach for 2-3 more years, but agin, he has generously decided that he is willing to pay that price as well.</p>
<p>The issue, of course, is that there are other schools with less money who can't meet everyone's demonstrated need. However, as you get to somewhat lower tier schools, the difference between that and State U, especially State U honors, is less dramatic. I knew full well that if it were Brandeis or Tufts without extremely generous aid v. Rutgers Honors instead of Princeton v. Rutgers honors, I would have gone to Rutgers. However, that isn't so bad, and, at that point, the difference between schools is less dramatic anyway.</p>
<p>Being from New England also - I am going to chime in here. To the OP - having done the 'private elite' for one and 'public U' for the other - I can vouch for the fact that the private 'discounted' the tuition for a bright/involved/athletic/well-rounded kid who was a real 'catch' for the LAC he atteneded - and that this kid was NOT the top of the heap in the application pool or in the long term outcome - but has done quite well dispite that.</p>
<p>For the other - who by the way - sounds alot like your kiddo - very good student - NHS - all honors - athletic (12 letters as well) - good candidate blah, blah, blah....... - this kiddo wanted nothing to do with a private LAC - this kiddo wanted the big 'U' experience (tho did look at and consider a couple somewhat smaller school as well) - and the home state - big 'U' - for which she would have gotten free tuition - but not free fees!!!! - uummm - was not to be a part - not even considered - at all in the mix. Actually the expense of going to the big 'U' in this state taint cheap!!! And so..... we looked elsewhere...................... this kiddo is attending a big 'U' - tho as an out-of-state student - and actually the cost is just about the same as if she were in-state at big 'U' - even at the in-state tuition - AND we do believe she has actually had better opportunities at the out-of-state 'U' than she would have had in-state.</p>
<p>One thing to keep in mind is that 'settling' for the in-state 'U' may not be completely out of the question - as I don't think any one should 'settle' but consider it the best option/fit - as honors programs at state U's can really set a good student apart and open many doors not yet considered. Also I have to say that an education is what ONE does with it. The college grad is NOT completely where they graduated from - it is what they do with it and make of it - the opportunities are there for the taking - just have to look for them and act on them.</p>
<p>I think one question I would have to ask is - what does your kiddo think/want?? Does your own kiddo feel that only the 'best' will suffice?? There are soooo many options out there - does your kiddo know and understand the differences and how those differences would effect them personally? I have to agree with who ever said - it is sometimes harder to get into a school than the curriculim actually is at that school.</p>
<p>Depending on what your kiddo is considering - and the hooks that this kiddo may have - scores/academics/talents - can affect the tuition situation in many ways - there are many things to take into consideration - and finding the right 'fit' for each kiddo is as individual as the shoes we walk in. Don't discount some schools due to their costs - look at the total picture before you right them of as not a probable - you may be very surprised - we were.</p>
<p>Sorry, late to the game but couldn't let this pass. I went to a "third tier" large state univeristy where I had a great 4 years. Good student, not exceptional. Not Summa, not Magna, not Cum. My law schools acceptances:</p>
<p>Duke (attended)
Columbia
NYU
Tulane
Georgetown</p>
<p>Waitlisted at Harvard, rejected at Stanford.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One of my questions is why don't the Ivies give "merit aid"? It's not like they can't afford to do so. They have billions that could make the difference for kids on the bubble, really deserving kids. Why so stingy?
[/quote]
Given a budget for aid not providing merit aid means there is more money for financial aid ... the IVYies and other top schools already attrack top applicants so if they gave merit aid it would basically shift some aid up the financial ladder (not an a good outcome IMO). Personally I believe using all aid money on financial aid is better for the overall pool of kids going to school. </p>
<p>Now, there are lots of arguments against the IVYies (and other top schools) about how much they allocate for financial aid and how serious they are about attracting applicants from lower income families.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Ivy League does not give "athletic scholarships" per se. However, they have been known to give merit aid to students that they are recruiting. Brown gave a local kid $$$ to play a sport for them. I know of other examples. As far as I know, there are no such restrictions on Stanford.
[/quote]
An IVY league school can not give merit aid to an athlete without violating the rules of the league and risking penalties ... for that matter they can not give merit aid to a singer, actor, or flutist either ... merit aid is not allowed period. That said, I wouldn't doubt that recruited star quarterbacks might get a financial aid package that looks pretty darn good ... but again, that financial aid package is open for review by the league and if it is blatantly out of whack the team and school face sanctions from the league.</p>
<p>Another factor not yet mentioned is that there are ways for soph & junior college students to cut their tuition. A friend's son became a resident adviser. At my S's school, there are merit awards for GPAs, EC involvement, and lots of paid research jobs.</p>
<p>I don't buy the argument that top law schools will take a mediocre applicant from an Ivy over a stellar applicant from Podunk U. Most undergrad law school counselors know the drill; the combination of LSAT's, GPA and recommendations are reasonably predictive of admissions to virtually every law school in the country with the possible exception of Yale (which is very small compared to its peer institutions so its admissions can seem capricious.) The reason that it may appear that law schools "dig deeper" into Ivy schools than Podunk U is the LSAT's-- all things being equal, a kid who scores in the 98 percentile of the LSAT's will have much more variance around the GPA required for Law school admissions than the kid who scores in the 85 percentile. Therefore-- the top students at Podunk, GPA wise, had better have scores which support their GPA. Not too mysterious, and frankly, not too nefarious either. </p>
<p>I think someone here once cited a study which showed the variance in Bar passing rates by law school which suggest that the law schools don't do anyone a favor by admitting kids with low LSAT's. Even if they've got a high GPA, even if they can get through law school, the likelihood that they can pass the bar, even on multiple attempts, tends to go down if they were low scorers initially. Why wouldn't law schools focus on admitting kids who would become successful at practicing law???</p>
<p>Nightingale, you've got a lot of facts jumbled in your head. You may want to spend some time with some of the FinAid calculators plugging in different variables to see just how generous some of these top schools can be, based on your salary and assets.</p>
<p>One thing in the AID situation is that the ivy's use a mixture of student loans - work study - grants (usually directly thru/from the school itself as part of those nice endowments they have) and scholarships - which must be directed in their use as prescribed by the grantor - ie - if the grantor states that the scholarship must be be given to a junior male - football player - guess who gets it - the junior football player. Many scholarships are very specific in their use and application - tho when they are established - it is preferred that be open ended.</p>
<p>The Ivy's - being division 1 - can put this into the mix as part of their aid packages that meet 100% of need - but they cannot just flaunt $$ to a wanted student - based on the agreements between the Ivy's. Any school that is D1 outside the Ivy's is able to provide - for the most part - athletic scholarships - the Ivy's are not able to designate the same tho.</p>
<p>The "open secret" is that schools can & will try to get the students they want by making more/most of the aid for the students they want most grants & scholarships rather than loans. I suspect the same holds for ivies.</p>