OXBRIDGE as an international

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi, I will be going to Williams College (undergraduate) this fall. I am Japanese, and I hope to study at either Oxford or Cambridge (preferably Oxford- I’m more interested in humanities than science) sometime after graduating from Williams.</p>

<p>I have a few questions about admission precedures at Oxbridge:</p>

<li>Oxbridge’s websites say the following about their minimum requirements for graduate students:</li>
</ol>

<p>Oxford-“The normal minimum qualification to be eligible for admission as a student for a postgraduate programme of study is the completion of a Bachelor’s degree with a first or upper second-class honours or the international equivalent. An applicant with less is very unlikely to be accepted.”</p>

<p>Cambridge-"Graduate work in Cambridge is intense and very intellectually demanding and so the University has high academic entry requirements. You are normally expected to hold or to be about to achieve:</p>

<p>-at least a 2i honours degree from a UK university
-an equivalent standard from an overseas university …"</p>

<p>What is the American “equivalent” of “first or upper second-class honours (oxford)” and “a 2i honours degree from a UK university”?
Since I have only studied in English-teaching environment for about 2 years, I am worried that it will be very difficult to graduate as honors at Williams… (if that’s what Oxbridge want)</p>

<li><p>how hard is it to get scholarship for these universities as an international student? I found some scholarship resources in both schools’ websites, but I don’t really know how competitive they are. And I only found a few tht accept Japanese applicants.</p></li>
<li><p>How competitive is the admission for Oxbridge? Does anyone know the admit stats, if they exist??</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I know it’s FAR too early to be thinking about graduate school ( I may change my mind while I’m in college), but I’m just genuinely curious.</p>

<p>Thanks for help!</p>

2

<p>The typical demographic of student's graduating with a 1st degree is usually comprised of about 5-10% of graduating class of a typical major. Those who rank in the 2.1 range usual fall within 10-40% of the majors class. Of course these ranges fluctuate widely among UK universities and majors with in those universities. </p>

<p>I've met a number of Williams undergrads at oxford who are participating in a study abroad program. Maybe thats something to try?</p>

<p>Dont discount Cambridge based on the US adage that "Oxford is for arts and Cambridge for science", the History program at Cambridge, particularly at the graduate level is fantastic as is the English program.</p>

3

<p>There is no exact grade convertion between the british system and the USA's. a 2:1 would be around a 3.4 or 3.5 give or take.</p>

4

<p>It really depends on the grading system at your college - I really don't know about Williams. For example, a 3.5 at MIT is probably much harder to get than even a 3.8 at Stanford.</p>

5

<p>I don't exactly know admissions statistics, but I'd imagine as they are both considered two of the best universities in the world they are pretty steep.</p>

<p>Roughly speaking, most universities in the US have a three-tiered system of honors: (from highest to lowest) summa cum laude, magna cum laude, and cum laude. Some universities split up those who earn these by a flat GPA (i.e. 3.8 and above is summa no matter what); others will do it by class rank (top 5% get summa, top 15% get magna, etc.) to assure they aren't giving everyone honors (this happened at Harvard a lot until they clamped down on it a few years ago).</p>

<p>Some universities, like MIT, don't give honors. It's an honor just to graduate from there. I'm sure anyone at Oxford/Cambridge will respect an MIT degree.</p>

<p>I have to disagree with the last poster, as it just depends on what your major is and how the administration is feeling about grade inflation. That said, Stanford is incredibly well known for grade inflation.</p>

<p>If you're going into the humanities (or liberal arts as they're better known), prepare to work to the bone teaching to earn your way through. Unlike the sciences and engineering, there's very little money for liberal arts students; all my friends in these departments have to TA every semester. I don't know about Oxford/Cambridge, but I'd imagine it's much the same.</p>

<p>Finally, you ought to look at graduate schools in the US too on your hunt. Though everyone blasts us for our poor high schools, the US still has the best graduate schools in the world, and it's worth looking into.</p>

6

<p>Keep in mind that getting the money to go to Oxbridge is vastly harder than actually getting in, for non-EU. people. In the math departments, there are no paid TA or RA positions; I think that this is true for every department, though I'm not sure. So, for instance, if you want to go to Cambridge for math, you would have to get either a scholarship from a college (maybe one or two for the more math-y colleges, like Trinity, are given out each year); get a Marshall scholarship (pretty difficult, but possibly doable); get a Gates Cambridge scholarship (~Marshall, in terms of difficulty); get an NSF fellowship (not so difficult). I don't know if this generalizes to all departments, but my impression is that getting funding is the hardest part of the game.</p>

<p>(Oh, and also, at least in the math departments, PhD students aren't allowed to work.)</p>

7

<p>Given that's a bit of a minimum I think you should concentrate on the "First Class" standard, which is typical for most of the courses at Oxbridge...</p>

<p>...I've seen on the program pages for various courses at Oxbridge that "First Class" has been taken to mean as low as 3.7, (for example here at Cambridge, First means 3.7 <a href="http://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/programmes/mphil_management/entry.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/programmes/mphil_management/entry.html&lt;/a&gt;) ....and and as high as 3.85 (again at Cambridge, but a different subject <a href="http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/univ/gsprospectus/subjects/international/international1d.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/univ/gsprospectus/subjects/international/international1d.html&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Depends on the subject and intepretation. I do know that GPAs vary massively from subject to subject - at Stanford the average GPA in the polisci department is aparrently almost 4.0, which may explain the above variation, since the second example is from the IR department.</p>

8

<p>Bottom line though, my, albeit unhelpful, advice, would be you can't go wrong with a 4.0 GPA ;)</p>

9

<p>Thanks, everyone!</p>

<p>I wasn't even familiar with the terms "summa cum laude, magna cum laude, and cum laude", so thanks for explaining them, too!</p>

<p>So, it seems pretty hard to finance the education as an international student... But there're a number of scholarships available for graduate students in Japan, so I'll look for them, too.</p>

<p>As for the grades, I should probably aim for somewhere around 3.7... but it's always the best to get 4.0 :) I really doubt it's going to be possible though, realistically speaking... I hear that the courseworks at Williams are harder than the students expect before going there. I will try my best though ;) And I will check the individual schools for their entry requirements.</p>

<p>About why I want to go to Oxbridge... I know there're many excellent graduate schools in the U.S., but I used to live in England as a kid, so I hope to live there again.
Also, the admit rate for the top U.S. graduate schools are very very low, and I'm worried that the whole process would be just like my experience when I applied for colleges this year. Although I'm really happy that I got into Williams, I felt that the whole admission process was extremely unpredictable: kids with great stats and personality can be denied admission to most of the schools they applied to. This can be both good and bad, I know, but I was really stressed out the whole time I was going through my admission process.
This may be just my opinion, but I have a feeling that UK universities are more "predictable" in that way, and the admit rates aren't as high as some of the top grad schools in the U.S., like HYP....Or is it just me being optimistic???</p>

10

<p>As someone that already has a conditional offer (thats in danger of rescission...but an offer nonetheless) from Cambridge, I think I can answer most of your application questions.</p>

<ol>
<li>Oxbridge's websites say the following about their minimum requirements for graduate students:</li>
</ol>

<p>Oxford-"The normal minimum qualification to be eligible for admission as a student for a postgraduate programme of study is the completion of a Bachelor's degree with a first or upper second-class honours or the international equivalent. An applicant with less is very unlikely to be accepted."</p>

<p>Cambridge-"Graduate work in Cambridge is intense and very intellectually demanding and so the University has high academic entry requirements. You are normally expected to hold or to be about to achieve:</p>

<p>-at least a 2i honours degree from a UK university
-an equivalent standard from an overseas university ....."</p>

<p>What is the American "equivalent" of "first or upper second-class honours (oxford)" and "a 2i honours degree from a UK university"?
Since I have only studied in English-teaching environment for about 2 years, I am worried that it will be very difficult to graduate as honors at Williams... (if that's what Oxbridge want)</p>

<p>I can say that this is sketchy for me because I'm in danger of being rescinded for not graduating with that. However, I can say that when I applied, I was on track for most 'distinctions' and honor societies. They never asked about ANY of that though and I didn't even put that in my resume (I worked something like 10+ jobs and held 29 scholarships so "deans list" didn't really seem like anything amazing to me). </p>

<p>I can say, though, that if you get a high GPA, a lot of those honors are automatic so don't worry about what "honours degree" really means. Just get good grades.</p>

<ol>
<li>how hard is it to get scholarship for these universities as an international student? I found some scholarship resources in both schools' websites, but I don't really know how competitive they are. And I only found a few tht accept Japanese applicants.</li>
</ol>

<p>Its almost impossible to get a scholarship for those universities. For students from America, theres a Gates and Rhodes but I think its only like 100 awards for 10,000 applicants. A Gates doesn't have a GPA requirement but you should expect to get at least a 3.6-3.7 to even begin considering to apply. A Rhodes I think require a minimum of 3.75 or 3.8. Aside from that, there are many disadvantages to being a international student. You <em>are not</em> eligible for financial aid, unlike American schools. If you take out loans, they would have to be BANK loans, not grants. You cannot take an assistantship since most of them are only applicable to UK residents. AND to top it off, you pay the out-of-country tuition. My bill for estimated expenses next year is 22,400 pounds, which will run my parents 45,000 american- enough to go to any ivy here. </p>

<ol>
<li>How competitive is the admission for Oxbridge? Does anyone know the admit stats, if they exist??</li>
</ol>

<p>When I was applying, theres freshman admit stats somewhere if you google it. Theres also admit stats for individual programs so just browse through the websites. I know for mine, it was something like 25%...</p>

<p>You should have <em>at least</em> a 3.5 when you apply, regardless of what school you come from. Its stated in my conditions and I think that the bare minimum.</p>

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<p>Thanks, chibiutena! And congratulations for being accepted at Cambridge!</p>

<p>I didn't know you can't work as an assistant... I'll need to work very hard for a few years before going to graduate school. </p>

<p>I will google for the admit stats, thanks. I really hope you'll be able to fulfill the conditions- it's an offer too good to miss! Wish you luck!</p>

12

<p>There are scholarships available outside of the Rhodes and Gates road. Look for state sponsored programs, generic gad school scholarship programs, and work opportunities in places which grant scholarship money to enterprising interns.</p>

13

<p>Thanks, 21questions!</p>

<p>I don't think I will be eligible for state sponsored scholarships, as I am an international student. I am planning to look for internships while I'm in college, and I hope I can find one that will grant scholarship money!</p>

<p>BTW, I am hoping I can take part in Oxford-Williams program:)</p>

14

<p>Hello all...this is vandana...just finished my 2nd year of engineering<<in computer="" science="">>....from a pretty mediocre institute from india...
I really really want to get through to one of the top institutions to do my masters...<<read stanford,mit,yale,harvard,princeton,berkeley="" etc="">>>... which....many tell me....are WAY out of my league...but i really really want to try. I just am confused as to how i should go about achieving this.
I have an year n a half in which to prepare for and write my GRE and apply to the universities...so all im asking is...will u guys plz help me out here..? Tell me what i need 2 do get there...and i'll do it.</read></in></p>

<p>So far,i've got 93% in school{CBSE} and 96% in college....and in Com.Sci Engg. i've gotten 83% and 80% in 1st n 2nd yrs respectively. I'm a jack-of-all-trades type...totally into extra curricular stuff...not just into studies. Participated and won in many dance/sports/debate competitions... will that in any way help???
and do i have 2 write both the general and subject GRE to apply to a university?? And what are the average scores i need 2 put in,to even stand a chance of being accepted to a good university??
I'm quite new to the circle and i really hope u guys can gimme some advice on what to do. Thanx.</p>

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<p>Hi, vandana, I wish I can help you but I'm new to this whole graduate school thing so I really can't give you any advice...But I'm posting this message so that someone else will notice this thread and give you some advice:)</p>

16

<p>its<em>my</em>life,
While scholarships for non-European students are decidedly limited to Oxbridge, the upside is that foreign students are seen as a bit of a cash cow, and if you can foot the bill, admissions to a graduate program is really not all that difficult, given that you have graduated with respectable grades from a respectable University.<br>
That being said, if your undying dream is to attend Oxbridge for graduate school, as a Williams student, you are in luck. Williams offers a surprising number of endowed fellowships, about 5 or 6 at last count, for graduates to pursue graduate level studies at Oxbridge(though weighted slightly more to oxford). The fellowships aren't stupendously easy to get as they are such a great deal, but any graduating Senior with a high GPA and some vaguely interesting extracurriculars stands a good shot if they bother too apply. They are seen kind of as door prizes for those Williams students nominated (but inevitably not selected) for Rhodes and Gates scholarships. (I wish i had my act together enough to apply for them, because Oxford's visual anthro masters would be a great stepping stone for the Phd programs I am hoping to apply to, and there is no way I could ever afford two years at Oxford on my own.) Anyways, you can check out the deans list page for more info, <a href="http://www.williams.edu/go/careers/fellowships.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/go/careers/fellowships.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br>
specifically check out the alpha list of fellowships- they are in there somewhere. if its really your goal to get one of these fellowships, then make yourself a patron fo the deans office and the OCC early. The old fellowship dean was kind of a ....... but now they are being run out of the office of career services by a new guy, and I think that will probably make them more interesting.</p>

<p>Congratulations on being admitted to America's consistently number one ranked liberal arts college. Unfortunately for you, no one in your home country has ever heard of it. (I work in Asia, so perhaps I am a bit Jaded by the obsessive HYP fawning that goes on here, but hell I'm from the northeast and half the people in my high school class thought I went to a community college.) Go ephs.</p>

<p>(to the rest of you, sorry to clutter up the board with such institution specific chatter)</p>