<p>@ Mathmom,
I would agree that some kids in ISTS are born geniuses. There is no doubt about that. I am perfectly Okay with having those kids admitted to Ivies. In fact, with or without Ivies, these guys are most likely to be successful in their lives. My beef is with kids who did the project just because they were born in a family whose parents can provide a research project. (Some of these research projects were actually done by parents, not by these kids).The kid just went on for a ride on daddy’s shoulders. Some admissions officers are suckers to this scheme and kids with real talent and intellect but lack of family connections get the short end of the stick. In a long run, live is fair. Those kids who got in by gaming the system will eventually face the music alone, without help from others. I wish them best of luck without parents holding their hands going forward.</p>
<p>Most GC in most public schools know very little about how to get your kids into most competitive colleges. I was so frustrated after talking to one of them. The only help I got was the recommendation of getting on sites like CC and such. I guess the GC has done her job well…I would not have posted on this site today without her help…:)</p>
<p>kxc if either of our kids had shown any interest in biology they would have been one of those kids working for Daddy or Daddy’s friends. (My dh certainly wouldn’t have done the project. As it is he has a high school student in his lab - who he had no connections. He called my husband and asked if he could work in the lab. My husband barely knows what he does as he set him up with one of his grad students.) Meanwhile our son, who preferred computer programming, did end up programming something for a chemist that we know that has been acknowledged in several papers. We looked for opportunities for him to use his skills. His first job was working in my brother’s company. He proved so useful they doubled his pay the second summer. We all take advantages of our opportunities, it’s not my fault that my kids had easier access to these opportunities. The carpenter’s son likely has access to a different set of opportunities, but they aren’t necessarily less worthy in the admission’s committees eyes.</p>
<p>Any children who have loving, caring parents have a big leg up in all of the things in life. We can stack the advantages and disadvantages every which way, but I don’t see any way to level the playing field. A very bright, academically motivated young person who comes from a supportive family who gives him farming, family restaurant/business opportunities, carpentry, and does not have many of the advantages that kids in top school districts with high earning, highly educated parents are not shunned, but soughtt after in the elite college admissions process.</p>
<p>As for a paid college consultant cheating by doing things in the application process that the kid should be doing, you don’t have to buy into those services to cheat. Unfortunately cheating ia a big part of any process. The college admission offices do have some red flags for some offenses, but with the number of applications that are processed, there is no way they can catch most of them. Fortunately, the things that matter the most are not easy for cheaters to do. Hiring a consultant to oversee the process is not going to have the impact of having a test whiz take the SATs for you, doctor transcripts, fake references. That is true hard core cheating and what it takes to do that are things that are more safeguarded and the consequences of being caught doing that are severe. Those are what make the big difference in selective college admissions. </p>
<p>In my son’s case, I doubt any paid consultant could have made any difference in his college outcomes. They could write the essays, pull on any and all contacts in admissions, and I don’t see him getting into highly selective colleges. Cheat on his test scores would have done the trick to raise his selectivity index in colleges, nothing short of that or national recognition in something colleges like. Even a big fat contribution through development would not have gotten him accepted to HPY et al. Yes, it can make a difference in some borderline situations, but not that big of a leap. </p>
<p>College admissions officers and high school counselors (even at the selective prep schools) do not like paid consultants in the picture, and a whiff of them can make an application a stinker, by the way.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl –</p>
<p>“I’m not really sure that the role of the guidance counselors is even meant to be at the level of what a private college consultant can offer”</p>
<p>Maybe not at a “private, for pay” level, but it most certainly IS the role of the high school guidance counselor with respect to postgraduate counseling to do a lot more than </p>
<p>“alert students to relevant times in the process (“time to register for the ACT”) and other deadlines, communicate general principles (this is ED, this is EA), create a resource library for students to use, be knowledgeable / pass on info about FA and scholarships, and then be available as needed”.</p>
<p>It is EXACTLY “the public school GC’s role to sit down with my kid, know him really deeply, know all the different schools that might be of interest, work with him on his essay, coach him on how to present himself”</p>
<p>Excerpts from the National Association for College Admission Counseling – role of the school counselors:</p>
<p>• Assist students and parents in understanding the college admission and financial aid processes by providing access to current, clear, and concise information concerning the wide range of postsecondary educational opportunities available, entrance requirements,
• Assist students in the acquisition, evaluation, and appropriate use of information [re: colleges]
• Encourage student and parent participation in college fair programs, admission and financial aid workshops, and related programs.
• Work with students and teachers in developing students’ essay-writing skills.
• Assist students in developing appropriate interviewing skills and in understanding the purpose of the college admission interview and their role in the process.
• Develop productive relationships with colleges to assist them in understanding the nature of the
school curriculum and the quality of their students’ preparation.
• Work with college admission representatives to schedule visits to the school so that students will have opportunities to explore a variety of options.</p>
<p>And the National Center for Education Statistics acknowledges that an important activity of the high school guidance counselors is “Postsecondary education admissions and selection”.</p>
<p>Your GC should be knowledgeable about and have developed relationships with a wide range of colleges. Not only should they know your child, but know how individual colleges respond to children from your high school. They attend professional conferences, etc. where this is a major goal. As you pointed out, some kids have a more difficult time when they are not the “average” student of their school; even the good counselors know more about the programs that would be appropriate for most of the students. So if your child is in an “elite” public school, but not an elite student, the counselor might be less knowledgeable about what is available at his level and vice versa. Of course, one GC only has knowledge about a finite number of colleges BUT the GC should not be able to steer the child in the right direction and help them explore. A high school student and his family should never have to rely on their interpretation and evaluation of Googled information about colleges. GCs should have the means and knowledge to guide a family through that process.</p>
<p>I could also go on about the Intel Science stuff - having mentored and judged in the process for a number of years, but I won’t!</p>
<p>Some schools have one guidance counselor for many kids, too many of them, and they are not only dealing with the college issues but things like family problems, contraband issues, emotional issues, truant students, you name it. If you showed those job descriptions to such school, the old ROFL would apply, except it is just too sad.</p>
<p>Also, like it or not, the GC is not necessarily going to be your kid’s best advocate in terms of the app process. His/her job is to objectively assess the kids in the school and let the college know where each one stands. When you pay for an advisor, that person is your paid advocate and is trying to earn a fee for the service of getting your kid in the colleges s/he wants. It’s a whole different situation. I do wish I knew a very good college consultant that I could afford, because I would love to hire one. My kids go to a private school and have college counselors, and still there is much that has to be done by the parent to keep things in line with family goals (particularly when it comes to financial constraints).</p>
<p>My point is that is what the GC’s SHOULD be doing, not necessarily what is actually happening in your local high school. In answer to the OPs original question - that is why it is necessary, ethical and, yes, fair to hire “outside” help - whether it be in the form of sending a child to a private school, sending him to specialized summer programs, hiring a tutor or hiring a college counselor. The issue of fairness, I think, is presented with regard to being able to afford the help. In my opinion, that does not apply here. But that is a broader topic - we do not live in a socialized society in the US - those who can afford things have them, those who cannot don’t. </p>
<p>If all professionals did what they should be doing and/or are honest and secure enough to admit when they are out of their league and ask for help, we’d all be in a much better situation. However, GCs are one profession of many. And I applaud those who actually have the skills and the ambition have taken the next step and offered their services for a fee.</p>
<p>I’d be astounded if the GCs at my kids’ high school have a “relationship” with any colleges other than the local community college and maybe the state flagship. I think you can save a lot of that 15 grand just by obsessively reading CC. I will say, though, that we have a friend who is a private college counselor, and she read my son’s essays and made some very good suggestions. We didn’t need her for college selection or anything else, though. And:
I’d say it’s in here–another plug for CC.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ROFL. On what planet? </p>
<p>Anyway, I don’t see why any college adcom should really care about a phone call from Jane Schmane, high school guidance counselor from East Nowheresville High School who might have one kid every 10 years interested in that school. Why should they pick up the phone if / when she calls?</p>
<p>And frankly, since their resources are limited, why <em>should</em> my kids’ GC focus on optimizing their choices at tip-top schools instead of securing scholarships for those kids who otherwise can’t go to school?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s ethical regardless of what your current GC is doing for you. It’s not as though it’s unethical if you go to Fancy Schmancy Private with excellent GC’s, but ethical if you go to Average Public HS with overworked / stretched GC’s.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl -</p>
<p>My main concern is that you find this amusing. ROFL - really? I think you should be concerned about the quality of your school system, not laughing.</p>
<p>I will reiterate - what I described is the job of the GC - whether your school district is able to provide that service is another story. I also never differentiated the ethics - it is ethical for anyone to use their means in this way no matter what their GC is doing for them.</p>
<p>I have never known a public school system where the GC was able to provide any truly personalized service. It’s asinine to think that (say) 4 counselors for 500 students could provide personalized service.</p>
<p>I also think it’s laughable to think that GC’s, who (in my experience) went to local teacher’s colleges and stayed close to home, would be experts in elite colleges and environments that aren’t close to home. I went to “nice” upper middle class suburban hs and my kids similarly went to a “nice” upper middle class suburban hs and the overwhelming assumption was that of <em>course</em> you’d stay in this state and why on earth would you ever look elsewhere. They are experts in the state flagships, the directional state u’s, the community colleges, and maybe the elite colleges <em>in that area.</em> They’re provincial, just like most people.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl -</p>
<p>That’s really too bad. Maybe you need to move.</p>
<p>The guidance counselors in my local high schools (in a “nice” upper middle class suburban area) know the kids and their parents well - to the point where they will run into a parent in the street years after the student has graduated and ask how they are doing.</p>
<p>Your sense of humor boggles my mind. As for your GCs lack of knowledge - as I said before - learning about postgraduate opportunities should be part of a GC’s education, even at the local teachers’ college. And there are conferences and meetings that they should be attending to learn about opportunities out of the area. I wouldn’t laugh if this is an indication of the quality of your school system.</p>
<p>Pizza:</p>
<p>It is not “their” responsibility to guide; it is “yours”. Once you get your head around that, life gets a lot more simple. JMHO.</p>
<p>Life isn’t fair. I think it is unfortunate that US college admissions has turned into basically a game that can be gamed, but to me paid consultants are no worse than all the rest of it. Some families can afford SAT tutoring and course tutoring throughout highschool, to live in expensive areas with fantastic public schools, private school tuition, huge investments in EC lessons and training, to not have to indicate they require fin. aid…and others can not. </p>
<p>It was never an even playing field. We just tend to notice when we are the ones at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>gusapara, can you tell me what planet you live on so I can catch the next flying saucer going there?</p>
<p>You can buy used test-prep books on E-Bay for cheap!</p>
<p>Wow, gusaspara, you must live in an area with excellent guidance counselors. The ones at our local high school generally went to slightly better colleges than Pizzagirl describes, but otherwise, her family’s situation is just like ours. The GC’s have 300+ students and meet with them in groups of 3 or 4 for about 30 minutes, once or twice a year. That’s it. They don’t want to hear from or know the parents. </p>
<p>Local experience with the Intel or Siemens: A few students participate, because they have heard of these competitions from some non-school source. With one of our recent winners, there was no question that the student was very bright and very dedicated to science. I am glad he won. His project was suggested by a university faculty member with whom he worked in the summer, though, so it was not a topic that he had identified independently. In fact, when I saw the title of his project, I knew immediately who he’d worked with, and I could trace the intellectual provenance of the project (through several different researchers) back to 1953. No doubt, there was some relevant work even before that!</p>
<p>Pizzagirl and I are having a rolling good time laughing, on the floor. From the many posts I have read on CC over the last 6 years and going back into the archives as well, there are very few GCs that fit the ideal of the job description. And this is on a forum which by definition tends to have parents on it that put education at a premium and look for schools for their kids that do the best job. I don’t even want to think about what the average and below average families have in terms of GC support for the college process. </p>
<p>The fact of the matter, is that college admissions is not the be all and end all at high schools in general. Yes, it is at some high school, but for many schools in this country, getting the kids out alive, healthy, not jailbound, not busted for drugs, with a degree is the important goal. Getting them to meet high school graduate standards is a more important goal. Further education is just gravy or frosting. On this board, we tend to forget that since college is what it’s all about here and that’s why we are here. But the reality is that there are a lot more urgent priorities than getting kids into a selective, name brand college even though there are some parents and school districts that will choke to read that.</p>
<p>@ QuantMech,
Your example proves my point. Life ant’ fair. Ivies use ISTS as major factor for admissions decisions. That is not fair for kids who have no connections to some one working at Universities and/or national labs. No matter how smart the kid may be, he/she has already lost right a the starting gate in the college admissions game. Granted, a bright kid with a drive to be successful may make it, assuming that some level of luck is on his/her side down the road.</p>
<p>I would agree with cptofthehouse, not every parents really have the time, energy or interest to help their kids. From that perspective, parents on CC are of different breed. Some CG’s are graduated from a no-name school and had never ventured out of the county. Getting into local schools is considered satisfactory. We don’t speak the same language, in a sense.</p>