<p>Before you go to P'ton, ask about the Honor Code process and the Honor Committee. There is more to this than just unmonitored exams. This is a process where a panel of students(no faculty) the honor committee, who are typically NON-science majors (elected student government leaders...you know the type...) have the power to judge your academic work and kick you out. This means econ majors can judge plagiarism on a Japanese literature exam (written in Japanese) or on a quantum mechanics exam. Yep, your $200,000 education is in the hands of 7 students including freshmen and very few seniors. Would you let an 18-year- old make investment decisons on a $200,000 portfolio? That's what they do at Princeton. You may read in the rights and responsibilities that the Committee on Discipline (includes faculty) reviews plagiarism, not always true. But you won't find it written anywhere. Ask about the hearing and appeal process. Ask how appeals are heard by the same kids who convicted you the first time. Ask about how they can wave "due process" because they are private and can do whatever they want.</p>
<p>Make sure you understand this BEFORE you go there.</p>
<p>article IV: 4. A quorum shall consist of seven voting members. The number of votes necessary for conviction shall be as follows: six of seven, or seven of seven</p>
<p>Only the most serious allegations ever even make it to the Honor Committee and that committee acts with great care. These charges are serious. Even if the committee votes to find that the student is guilty, the final decision on disciplinary action is absolutely in the hands of the Dean. The committee makes recommendations to the Dean who may or may not act on them.</p>
<p>Undergraduates do not have the power to expel a student and the Honor Code is one of Princeton’s proudest achievements. It works well and you would be surprised at how seriously most students take it. It is extremely rare for mistakes to be made and the administration is reluctant to expel any student unless the evidence is overwhelmingly against him or her. It was one of the reasons I chose Princeton.</p>
<p>It sounds as though you are a parent whose son or daughter is currently being investigated. I feel for you and if the charges are false I’m sure he or she will be exonerated.</p>
<p>The University is very proud of the Honor Code but has had to make changes in it over the years. Change is typically necessary to make an improvement which can only mean it needed improvement. These kids DO have the power to suspend students which is forever placed on their transcript as a “mandatory” suspension or leave of absence. Being found guilty by this body does not mean you ARE guilty. Nobody wants to talk about this when they are guilty, not true when you are innocent. Did you know that a voting member is responsible for collecting and reviewing the evidence in advance? Have you ever heard of the jury studying evidence before the trial? That’s the way they do it at Princeton. Not so at public universities who must follow due process.</p>
<p>With all due respect, I’m afraid that you don’t understand how the system actually works. In the end, the Dean will always have the final say. Students are not empowered to expel their peers without final review by the Dean through an automatic appeal (unless the student admits his or her guilt) which effectively means that the administration is still ultimately in charge. The Dean’s office is also involved in working with the Honor Committee as it proceeds and if there is no real basis for an investigation or there are extenuating circumstances the committee will be encouraged not to proceed. The students on the committee take their jobs very seriously and findings of guilt are extremely rare (in fact, investigations are very rare). I personally have never heard of a truly innocent student suffering any punishment.</p>
<p>Again, I’m sorry to hear that your son or daughter is in this position but if he or she is innocent this will have a happy ending. All schools have disciplinary procedures for alleged academic violations. Princeton’s operates with what I believe is great care and justice. I hope it does so in your case as well.</p>
<p>How many times has the Honor Committee found someone guilty and had the decision overturned by the Dean? Anybody know? I’d argue that the Dean’s decision to overturn a committee decision is RARE and that the Committee’s decision is de facto the final outcome. Yes, the Dean gets involved but the appeal is not “automatic” and is not on the evidence, it is " only made by the accused student on the grounds of procedural unfairness or harmful bias." Appeals in general are also rare and legal help is impossible within the tight timeframe of a hearing. Most lawyers, anyway, work within due process, not “house rules.” What student has the resources to argue procedural unfairness and bias if you’ve never done this before? Does anybody know what has worked effectively in the past? </p>
<p>The Committee may be “thoughtful” but they are not wise. They do not have enough life experience to be wise. One even suggested that the accusing professor serve as the HC’s “unbiased” expert in matters unique to the subject. The accusing professor as unbiased and this is “thoughtful”? And this is how they “train” their members to be unbiased! I’m not creative enough to make this stuff up.</p>
<p>Yes, I know of one innocent student who was found guilty and this doesn’t have a happy ending. I’d like to hear about more…</p>
<p>In order to justify the LAST 100 years of the Honor Committee every effort is made to preserve each decision of the Honor Committee because to admit errors is to throw the past wide open. That’s a legal quagmire no University counsel would entertain. Precedent rules, even if it’s wrong and nobody is there long enough to change things. The only folks who have any institutional wisdom are long standing administrators, who aren’t talking about this out in the open. They are fully invested in the status quo. I just want this stuff to get out into the open. So that people can make their own decisions with full information. </p>
<p>Did you kwow that you don’t need to receive a formal charge letter? And the accuser MAY introduce evidence against you AT the hearing sanctioned by the HC? Surprise! Due process is time tested across many, many situations to preserve fairness. Truncating due process: shortcuts to be expedient are all at the cost of fairness and cause the system to be in need of reform.</p>
<p>I’m reading into this that your son or daughter was, in fact, found guilty. You are understandably upset and I grieve for you but I stand by my previous words. This must be terribly difficult and painful. I’m so sorry to hear it and I won’t burden you with my own thoughts any further.</p>
<p>I’m not referring to a son or daughter but an excellent student, who has always received good grades (not all A’s) and has always worked hard…that last person you’d expect. This is not about someone who routinely gets C’s and suddenly performs at an A level. This is someone who is performing consistently. I want people to know about the process and how this works BEFORE it happens to them and for parents to understand this risk and what’s at stake. ALL PRIVATE universities are not required to follow due process. The courts have ruled that Universities can discipline as they please but nobody has ever challenged the process, not the punishment. My argument is not with the punishment but the process that focuses on punishment and guilt first. The presumption is that IF you get to the Honor Committee, you must be guilty. Then you must prove you are innocent to a disbelieving committee, an especially difficult burden if the Committee sees the accusing evidence in advance without the benefit of seeing the defense.</p>
<p>Exactly, kid stuff. But the administration claims the honor committee is unbiased. How does one learn to be unbiased? What teenager has any experience in THIS CONTEXT with that considering how much is at stake? I’d like to know the proportion of cases seen by the Honor Committee that result in guilt. That’ll tell you something. But nobody will tell you unless you ask the question. So ask away…before you go.</p>
<p>can you please enlighten us with some factual information about the specific case? That will help the discussion more than hoping that someone listens to your vague allusions.</p>
<p>Yeah… I totally feel ya. When I got kicked out of Princeton, it was because I had a one night stand with our student council President. She happened to be on the committee. I guess she got the last laugh…</p>
<p>Here are some specifics:Their rules say you have the “the right to have a witness present during the initial interview with investigators.” Ask them about this interview and their tactics and what this “witness” is supposed to do and who this “witness” is. Every students needs to have a witness at the ready because you will need one who knows what to do on a moment’s notice. They will tell you to be forthright in this interview. They don’t tell you that you shouldn’t say anything you aren’t absolutely certain about. But the fact is don’t say anything unless you are absolutely certain about it. If you don’t know or don’t remember, beware. If they find out something later, the fact that you didn’t tell them can ADD to your punishment, even if you don’t remember. Don’t speculate or “think out loud”. If you make an error and remember something incorrectly or omit something, it’ll work against you. Just tell them you can’t remember. This is an interview without notice and might be the scariest one of you life and if you mess up, they will use it against you in the hearing that you weren’t forthright. As soon as the interview begins, say, “stop, I have the right to have someone here to help me. Let me call them.” and call them even if it’s at 11pm. Insist that they tell you what this is ALL about BEFORE you answer any of their questions. They want you with your guard down. Find out who the peer advisors are on the first day of school. Get the most senior one on speed dial. They don’t tell you who the peer advisors are until days later. Most students don’t even know what a peer advisor is.</p>
<p>@paysthebills, at many Universities, a prof has absolute power in such matters. If at Princeton a charge must be vetted through a peer panel, how is that a BAD thing? IMO, this is a MUCH better system than where a prof has unfettered power …</p>
<p>Here is the problem. All schools have some type of disiplinary counsel. No matter what the make up of that counsel is, if the person that is being charged is not guilty, yet is disiplined (or worse, released from the University) for something they did not do, in their eyes, the system is flawed. As Americans, we convict people every month in this country who are not guilty. It is not a perfect system but it is the system we have. Just because OP feels due process has not been given, the fact is that even if due process was given, the result could have been the same. I have always advised my children if they find themselves in this type of situation in any walk of life (work, school, military, etc), they can call a parent or better yet an attorney. I assure you none of my children will ever attend any school without an attorney on speed dial and full knowledge of the rules that bind them.</p>
<p>My point exactly, “collegeshopping,” you need to understand the rules BEFORE you go to the school and that’s why I’m here. In MOST schools if you are given the option to take a ZERO on the test or put yourself through this process where kids will decide your fate and possibly kick you out, take the zero. In the whole scheme of things, especially if you are innocent, it’s a small price to pay when the risks are so high. For a student to have to defend herself against a professor is NOT a fair fight and for students to “judge” whom to believe: a teacher or a student, the result is typically one-sided. There is always MORE gravity with the professor. It’ll never be a fair fight even for smart, “thoughtful” Princeton students or students at any other school. If you are wrongfully accused, you’ll think, “This can’t be happening, the truth will prevail.” …MAYBE NOT…do you want to take that risk? Why is an entrenched process in support of punishment such a source of pride? Many professors at Princeton hate this aspect of the Honor Code and the FIRST thing THEY do is TALK TO THE STUDENT. Then many deal with it OUTSIDE the Honor Committee because it’s just not worth ruining a kid’s life over…These are educators. In my opinion, this process is an embarrassment and Princeton is capable of so much more. I’m not discouraging anyone from going to Princeton. Just understand what you are signing up for…Oh…that’ll NEVER to happen to MY Susie…until it does. Please read the “Rights, Rules and Responsibilities.” It’s long, it’s complicated, it’s an 80 page book but know what you are signing up for. Talk to Admissions, if they brush it aside, well that tells you something…don’t let them. Ask questions and get straight answers. Do it BEFORE you commit $200,000. No student should need a lawyer on speed dial.</p>
<p>I don’t think that we should be taking what paysthebills says seriously unless he/she has provided some kind of full-disclosure as to his/her intentions and biases. </p>
<p>The nature of the posts seem charged with emotion, and really, I’d just like to see objective facts.</p>
<p>My intension is to inform those considering Princeton to understand the Honor Code…all 80 pages of it. Read it. Ask questions about how it works. Ask about the process before you decide this is the place for you. Parents need to understand the risks…parents need to be wise for their children. Compare it to the process at other schools. </p>
<p>Think about the math student who is charged to write a proof in a take-home test. He’s given introductory material and asked to structure the proof integrating it. He does and hands it in. The Professor grading it thinks it’s not original work and even finds a source it resembles. The student is dumbfounded because it IS original work. It integrates the “given” material but includes what came out of his own brain. What can he do? How can the student explain that it IS his own work and how does the student explain the similarities? He shows his logic. He shows how other choices would be wrong and he knows his work is correct and there aren’t many options for a correct answer. He shows his notation style and nomenclature in other work…but that too matches the other source. He shows that he knows the math COLD. He’s done good work, he’s done correct work, he’s innocent and found guilty because there is no denying it, the proof has too many matches to that of another source. He can’t prove he’s never read nor heard of the other source. How do you prove a negative? Think about computer code…it could match someone else’s code…did you collaborate? Do you want a politics major to decide what “matching” means in computer code…it’s like another language.</p>