Parent of Worried Daughter with Relatively Interesting Stats--Please Help!

Parents Forum
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<p>Just to emphasize to the dad: Your daughter sounds like a terrific person. She has great grades, very good scores, and wonderful ECs. She sounds liike she's smart, talented and compassionate with a nice array of skills in various areas -- a wonderful combination.</p>

<p>The reason why so many of us have posted with suggestions and concerns is because your D does sound so nice and talented and, unfortunately, we have seen many examples here that due to the ultra competitive college application -- which this year will be more competitive than ever -- many wonderful students have been disappointed when they got their acceptances. Some of us old timers also went thorough shock and stress when Andi posted about her wonderful son's getting no acceptances a couple of years ago despite his having outstanding stats and ECs. Unfortunately, he'd applied to a list that was too top heavy (After a gap year, he landed in a good college where he's very happy. Indeed, he got several acceptances and merit offers, too!)</p>

<p>So, we are being conservative when we estimate her chances. Maybe, she'll be one of the fortunate ones who gets into all of the places that she applies. She certainly might do that. To hedge her bets, though, and to make sure that when April comes, she definitely has some choices that she'd happily go to, many of us are suggesting that she expand her list to add some more definite match and safety schools that she'd happily attend.</p>

<p>I'm also suggesting caution about her ability to be happy so far from home in a region that is very different than Seattle. I am a black Harvard grad from New York State, and spent a year on the West Coast at Stanford. It was major culture shock because the laid back atmosphere of the West Coast was so different from the East, which is more intense.</p>

<p>I also had the shock of being a minority among the minority populations since there were proportionately more Asians than African Americans in northern California. I loved the area, but it was a big adjustment (even though I was on the receiving end of a wonderfully favorable change in climate). So, that's why I'm suggesting to make sure that D knows what she's getting into when she considers places on the East Coast and Midwest -- particularly her plans to apply to Middlebury and Cornell, which are isolated, in nondiverse towns, and are also hard to reach once it snows.</p>

<p>Anyway, I think that your D is fortunate to have a dad so caring that he is posting here for advice. I wish you and your D well, and hope that you'll stay in touch with us as she goes through the process.</p>

<p>Please also feel free to offer advice when you see posts with concerns that you may be able to address.</p>

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<p>EK, I don't think you should push your daughter.... but as I noted umpteen posts ago, the one thing that my daughter told me I did wrong along the way was to act like I doubted her. She told me that she was well aware of the risks of rejection but didn't want to dwell on them or think about them, and would have preferred if I had been more of a cheerleader.</p>

<p>Obviously your kid should also have a safety.... but I think part of the debate going on here is with the concept that there needs to to be a spectrum of safeties and matches, or that the safety somehow needs to be a school that matches the criteria of the target schools. I think it really depends on the kid -- my son wanted his spectrum, and since his goal was to find a small liberal arts college with small classes and lots of student faculty interaction, he could pick a set of very similar schools which ranged from highly to minimally selective. </p>

<p>My daughter is simply more ambitious and driven, and there were no safeties that met the criteria for what she wanted. She tried to visit safeties that looked good on paper, and she hated them. My daughter didn't want prestige for the sake of prestige -- she couldn't care less what others think about her college -- but she wanted challenge and stimulation that was not going to be found at a college where she was on the top end of the applicant pool - so almost by definition, a "safety" would have been unsatisfactory, especially as she did not test well and her "safeties" were farther down the totem pole than might have been the case for a kid with higher scores.</p>

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<p>yanimated, with all due respect to your concern for your daughter's happiness, I hope your daughter is less bigoted and more open to excellent schools than you are. I am not a southerner and I am not of a majority ethnic group, but I found your statements regarding Vanderbilt and Davidson and the South ignorant and offensive. (That is not a recent post on the thread but I had not read the thread previously.)</p>

<p>It may be that your daughter would prefer to be in the Northeast, and that is fine. But to assume that Vanderbilt and Davidson are not appropriate for her to consider becaus they are in the South shows very little understanding of the changes American society has undergone in the last decades--or of the racism and ethnic division that unfortunately continue to exist in ALL corners of what is, for all that, a wonderful country. The two schools you disparage may or may not have what your D is looking for in the way of linguistic offerings, and if that is the case of course they shoud not be considered. But I am quite sure they have a great deal to offer students of all ethnicities in other respects.</p>

<p>I would also point out that small New England towns, no matter how illustrious the colleges located within them, are often parochial and very white places. The colleges may be diverse, the faculty may be sophisticated, and the students bright, open to all experiences and groomed for success, but believe me, when you go the local Hannafords supermarket or Aubuchon hardware store, you don't exactly think you are at the UN.</p>

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<p>I lived close to 20 years in the South, over at least 3 different time periods, and in 4 different states, and I didn't find her statements to be offensive. I see nothing wrong with posting one's concerns. After all, that's how people learn. Most people haven't lived in various parts of the country, so they may have very stereotyped ideas as well as some very legitimate concerns. </p>

<p>I also think that there are ways of providing a different viewpoint and expanding another's perspective without being rude, which is how I experienced mattmom's post.</p>

<p>I am black and when I moved to the South, my whole familly was in fear, and frankly, so was I. When i grew up and used to visit my relatives in D.C., the streetcars still were segregated. My mother had attended segregated schools. When I moved south of D.C., I lived in states that had only recently desgregated their schools -- and that was under court order. When I was in Tennesee and working for AP, every year one of our reporters had to cover a national or statewide KKK rally.</p>

<p>When I moved to Fla., the KKK was having an annual rally in front of the Capital. Trees still existed where local residents remembered black people being lynched.</p>

<p>So -- given the history of the South -- it does make sense for a person of color to have concerns.</p>

<p>My own experience in more recent times has been that parts of the South are far more open minded and less prejudiced than are places like parts of Boston and the metro Detroit area, where I've also lived. For instance, the last time that I moved to the South, we had no problems being shown housing all over the city, not just in the "black" areas. However, before that, we had lived in metro Detroit, and had been horrified when our real estate agent kept giving us unsolicited info about the racial composition of neighborhoods that we expressed interest in. We also were treated with hostility and suspicion by some white real estate agents when we went to open houses in places like Birmingham and Bloomfield Hills Mich., some of the more affluent, predominantly white suburbs.</p>

<p>At the same time, however, it still is probably more common in the South than in the North or West to see people with confederate flags displayed on their cars or even outside their homes. I also read of a black college student in, I think, Alabama who was offended when his white roommate insisted on displaying the confederate flag on the wall of their room. It's hard enough dealing with being a freshman and living away from home without also having to deal with things like this.</p>

<p>When people of color send their kids to college, they do have to be concerned about things that white people don't have to be concerned about: These things include whether their kids will run into discrimination or prejudice on campus or in a college community.anywhere Parents of kids of color who don't think about such considerations are, sadly, very naive and are possibly setting their child up for some painful experiences.</p>

<p>This also is why I keep suggesting that the OP consider whether his D really wants to attend a college in a community where there are few Asians or a campus where Asians also are a very small minority. The D clearly is very connected to her culture and has done a lot of volunteer work with Chinese students. I think it would be hard for her if the surrounding community is overwhelmingly white, and she lacks the cultural opportunities that she appreciates. </p>

<p>While there are excellent colleges all over the country that might welcome the diversity that she'd bring, she may not want to be in the position of being responsible for exposing her peers to Chinese culture and people while not being able to get support from and to provide community service to a local Chinese community.</p>

<p>One can find a recent thread by a black freshman who is considering transferring from a top LAC in an isolated area with few black students. She's considering transferring because of the lack of other African Americans. Apparently, she is from the D.C. area, where there is a large black population, and she hadn't realized how isolated she'd feel attending school and living in an area where there are very few black people.</p>

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<p>My point was that racism or ethnic exclusivity can be found virtually everywhere, and not always where one expects it. I do find my tolerance for stereotypes whether of places or people is pretty limited, and getting more so. And unfortunately this thread has for whatever reason acquired a somewhat acrimonious quality; if my post reads as rude, perhaps it is simply taking on the tone of its surroundings. I also think that people can experience being "other" in different ways and that there are lot of different kinds of "other"-ness.</p>

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<p>Sorry everyone. I am on London time trying to adjust from US Pacific and China time.</p>

<p>Now I will respond to the fifty 1,000 word posts with a large college-search dissertation.</p>

<p>I must say, whether you gave a "positive" or "negative" response, I appreciate it nonetheless.</p>

<p>On the UofWash: I graduated from there with a Ph. D in anthropology so that was one of the reasons that made us see it as a safety. In terms of whether she'll like it or not, I think she would like it. She chose the UW because of their Arabic and Chinese programs, their moderately good business program, and good price. In fact, she is almost a UW student. She loves the Ave (street near UW popular with college students), spends a lot of time at the libraries, and has a lot of friends who go there.</p>

<p>On Reed and the West Coast schools: She chose Reed for purely academic reasons. She likes the quirkiness that reflects her current highschool. She has considered several other schools on the West Coast actually, but they have slowly been cut off her list. The last and most recent cut off was Claremont McKenna although I think she's still quite attached to it. She has also considered USC (although I personally would not like her attending a school in LA), UCLA (I think she cut it off because it was an out of state public), Whitman, and Pomona.</p>

<p>Why she cut them off is unknown because I thought she would apply to USC.</p>

<p>I don't think she would mind going to a west coast school, but the east coast schools appeal her more.</p>

<p>On Being Asian: She has often been the only Asian in the crowd and has been completely fine with it. She was at an Arabic Immersion camp (Concordia) this summer as the first ever and only Asian to attend was completely fine with it. It was also in a northern Minnesota with crazy weather, very isolated, could only stay in within the camp grounds (probably less than two acres). </p>

<p>She has been to the East Coast, first to Boston for a week where she saw Harvard and MIT and then to Middlebury. She did not enjoy Boston, but I think that was more because she loathed the adults chaperoning the trip (and they must have been bad because that is very out of character for her). But she still liked the Boston atmosphere (minus the chaperones). She did enjoy Middlebury immensely however, despite only seeing 10 or so Asians there (according to her it might've been the same three over and over again). She's very hard to impress with landscape and environment, she usually disregards them. Someone mentioned that she liked Middlebury because she went during autumn. She never mentioned what the school looked like. She has only talked about their academics and the friendliness of the people there. She sat in on Chinese, Arabic, and Poliitical Science classes at Middlebury and loved them. She did notice how isolated the area was, but she'll probably be so busy that she won't care after a while. And on how cold the winters will get, I'm sure a bit of shopping can fix that.</p>

<p>The only time she's really felt homesick was when she went to China. As the youngest student there by at least four years, she was miserable for the first four or so days, called us every hour, and drove up our phone bill. But after that, we rarely heard from her except once when she got very lost in the outskirts of Beijing. She didn't want to leave China at the end.
She is very independent. We haven't travelled with her for years. She also doesn't keep us very informed on her college plans.</p>

<p>Calmom mentioned how their child is only depressed for a few minutes and then back to their usual self quickly after. That's a lot like my D. The longest she's ever been depressed was in China for the first few days. After that she was back to being herself.</p>

<p>She's applying ED to Huntsman at UPenn the ivy.</p>

<p>Emeraldkitty: She's in orchestra but doesn't find it all that great altough she does like the Japnees coductor. It isn't strange she's not in the more "popular" activities like the newspaper or drama club. She did participate in drama club her sophmore year and was considering writing for the newspaper, but I don't think she likes to conform. Altough she did join Key Club, which is very large and extremely popular in larger states like California, but she became a high position. You should also be able to figure out her name by just this screenname (it is hers). And yes, she definitely does not come across as prestige minded. She's more along the lines of outgoing, driven, and creative. Her essays definitely do show that.</p>

<p>Why does volunteering at age 5 get an eye brow raise?</p>

<p>Calmom: Thank you for Barnard. I think she would like it. I've just emailed her about it. Looks like a good match.
I also think my daughter does suspect that her list of ECs makes her stand out at her prestigious schools that might be tired of seeing the same music-math Asian combination, so that's why she's applying.
And yes, she does place a lot of emphasis on what the college is able to offer. She's dropped several prestigious schools for lacking areas that she wanted.</p>

<p>On Out Of State Public U's: Yes, she is very money-conscious, maybe too money-conscious. She was very interested in U of Mich (for obvious reasons) and some of the UCs but had to give them the ax because it isn't worth it for an out of state student. And that's probably why she's only choosing colleges based on reputation/prestige and academics, she wants her money's worth and will go to the state school instead of paying $30,000+ for a mediocre education at a mediocre-named school. She will be paying for most of her education.</p>

<p>PhatAlbert: Yes, her 770 on the SATs is not impressive at all. But she did score high in the intermediate level of the HSKs. We are hoping that Penn and other schools doesn't know how many summer scholarships are given.</p>

<p>Northstarmom: I did look at some of the statistics of Penn acceptances on this forum, and I also noticed that children with both high and low scores and GPAs got accepted. She has considered Brandeis, Macalester, Rice, Notre Dame, and Vanderbilt.</p>

<p>And I don't think she's going to even mention her music activities. She's only mentioning the activities she still enjoys: the magazine, the Key Club, the Chinese activities, the Arabic, and the debating.</p>

<p>momrath: She has looked at Williams, but I think only because a famous Chinese popstar went there because Yale and Princeton didn't appeal to him (pre-stardom). Williams is very competitive now. And is somewhat well-known in international-academic circles in Asia.</p>

<p>To all moms on-line from 12:00 to 3:00 AM, please get some sleep, it's for your own good. Seeing over 100 replies after one wakes up is frightning. Do you all work here?! It is also nice to know so many people care.</p>

<p>We have heard from several people that U of Chicago would really like her. And she likes U of Chicago, so it works out if she just gets into Chicago and her two "safeties". We know a few kids with dismal stats but great ECs that have gotten in easily. Same with Reed.</p>

<p>ellemenope: What you said about Harvard looking to "craft a class" is very helpful. My D is quite good a strategizing.</p>

<p>And about the two different categories of safeties, that was also a very good suggestion. Thank you!</p>

<p>Bethievt: I think Carnegie Mellon's science-oriented academia was why my D cut it off.
*</p>

<p>Oh, I'm not pushing my D. I know well not to push a kid who has already been pushed.</p>

<p>Mattmom: So sorry, did not mean to offend anyone. But every Asian we know of who have gone to school in the South (including a few in our family) have had less than positive experiences going to well-regarded schools such as UNC, Elon, Furman, and especially Davidson. And I do understand that there are colleges in northeastern towns with little or no diversity (like Middlebury and Dartmouth), but it is better to at least provide some place for her on campus, where she will be spending the majority of her time. But I think Northstarmom presents a good point. Also, Asians aren't exactly a majority ethnic group, we just seem like it. We're actually only 3-4% of the US population. I think it's 4% now. The US is popular.</p>

<p>Thank you to everyone who responded.</p>

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<p>yanimated, good to hear from you. It sounds like her list will work for her, with possible minor tweaking from the ideas here which resonated for you. The balance, of course, can and should go up in smoke. :)</p>

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<p>Why does volunteering at age 5 get an eye brow raise?</p>

<p>I was being tongue in cheek with my asking about all the extra activities- thats why I put JK ( just kidding)
But my D does have friends who are in GTA- taking all AP classes- and in orchestra at Garfield AND in the Seattle Youth Symphony AND play on sports teams- AND volunteer tutor at Leschi elementary so I guess I have just come to expect heavy involvement in lots of academic and nonacademic activities.</p>

<p>Re: the volunteering at 5- reminded me of my relatives who had their kids potty trained at 9 months- it wouldn't be happening unless there were adults involved- and I have a hard time thinking what sort of activity a 5 year old would chose to do for "volunteer work".</p>

<p>I suppose I could have counted my daughter reading to her preschool class at 3 & 1/2 as "volunteer time", but why?</p>

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<p>I thought you did the eye brow raise because not very many five years olds make such decisions. I'm hoping that if she does mention it she say that she wanted to follow along and didn't know she would like it.</p>

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<p>You want to be very careful about mentioning work/grades/honors achieved before high school. You have limited space on the applications, and the colleges want to hear about the student's most recent activities. Going back to kindergarten might seem like she's trying to stretch things - and it will limit space for her to talk about what she's doing now.</p>

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<p>Yanimated, feel free to PM me if you want or your d. want more info on Barnard. Your D. sounds so similar to mine in terms of personality it's uncanny. "I don't think she likes to conform" -- yeah, I've lived through that with 2 kids.</p>

<p>If whatever she was volunteering at, at age 5, was continued through high school, then it would be fine to mention it. My daughter's used a dance resume that went back to age 4, which was when I finally let her start dance lessons after incessant begging for a year. So much for adult-directed activities.</p>

<p>Anyway -- my point is that if there is a longevity with an activity, its o.k. to let colleges know -- it can be mentioned in an essay or short answer if not an activity sheet. Otherwise, obviously a college app should be based on what the kid has done over the past several years -- though I think it is ok to mention unusual accomplishments/awards that go back earlier.</p>

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<p>OP</p>

<p>If she does end up at Middlebury, we're an hour away. Our son will be away at college for the first time and we'd be happy to have your daughter for weekends, Thankgiving, whenever. We're going to be relying on the kindness of strangers for our son.</p>

<p>And yes, I do spend too much time on CC, but I usually get sleep at night.</p>

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<p>^ I don't (get sleep at night); I'm an insomniac conditioned by my d to get by on 4 hours. But now that she's away, I'm trying to reform. :-)</p>

<p>btw... I was going to also mention. My d always accompanied me when we made Christmas care package runs to area families. We started when she was a Daisy Scout (K). She helped wrap the presents (mainly putting on bows) and she played with the kids at each of our stops. She probably didn't know she was helping, but she was. :-)</p>

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<p>Emory's freshman class is 25% Asian. Half of my son's new friends are Asian.</p>

<p>An incredibly diverse environment - I was amazed. And an unbelievable school in a great city! My son is from PA - so the South is new to him too. But Atlanta is not really the South - so national and international! Let me know if you want more info.</p>

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<p>I would hope that anyone who thinks of Nashville (Vanderbilt) as racist would first visit before making that assumption. As a southerner, I am offended by people who think they know what it is like in my area. I suggest a visit before making a decision based on what you may have heard versus what you experience. I think anyone who visits our area would enjoy the southern hospitality.</p>

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<p>"I would hope that anyone who thinks of Nashville (Vanderbilt) as racist would first visit before making that assumption"</p>

<p>It's important to realize that it's normal for people to make assumptions without visiting areas. After all, if one has read information that has caused one to conclude that a place has problems that causes one to have concerns, one isn't likely to spend one's time and money to check out the truth of one's perception.</p>

<p>People are more likely to open their minds to an area if they are kindly given information that seems counter to what they have thought.</p>

<p>For the record, I lived in Nashville from 1974-1975, and did encounter racism including being told that apartments had no vacancies that did have vacancies.</p>

<p>However, since then, I've encountered many people including black people like me who have had good experiences there. Hearing about their experiences and perspectives changed my viewpoint so much that I suggested that both of my sons apply to Vanderbilt, and also have suggested that other students of color consider that school.</p>

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<p>Some points of clarification --
* the insomnia & 3 am posting.... this seems to be a result of a combination of menopause + empty nest syndrome. I can't sleep and there's nothing else to do at that hour but fire up the laptop and go online. But I do usually get 6-7 hours of sleep in any 24 hour period, its just that the hours when it happens can be kind of strange. </p>

<ul>
<li>my comment about "pushing" -- that actually was not directed to Yanimated, but to Emeraldkity, in resposne to her post about feeling encouraged about her LD daughter with various academic weak spots -- I meant to tell her that she should not take my comments as encouragement to push her daughter beyond the d's comfort level.... it's all about supporting + accepting the kid's own aspirations, not pushing.</li>
</ul>

<p>Which brings me to my last point:</p>

<p>If Yanimated had posted the same questions with a high school sophomore or junior, I'd be on board with everyone else with the test scores. The "right" way for a kid to get into Harvard or Huntsman includes aiming for the highest SAT scores possible - no one ever was hurt by having high scores. The problem is that the question is posed too late to do anything about the weak scores - you can't change history. Either the extra studying for the most recent testing has paid off, or it hasn't -- time will tell. </p>

<p>IMPORTANT NOTE: if it can be done, I'd suggest that Y's daughters sign up for the December 9th ACT+ writing -- deadline for registration is Nov. 3rd, and the ACT tends to be the salvation for many who seem to underscore on the SAT. This is going to be too late for the Huntsman ED application, of course -- but it could very well make the difference at some of the other colleges on the list.</p>

<p>Which brings me to my final point: You can't reinvent the past, and in the end the applicant has to go with what they've got. So naysaying and telling the person that they've gone about everything all wrong and should change their goals because of it is simply rude and out of place. </p>

<p>There is a certain kind of kid who can't and shouldn't be held back. Some kids are risk-takers by nature (in a positive sense - the risks they take are by forever aiming high and challenging themselves), and they are also very resilient. They don't acknowledge failure; they simply rise above it. In other words, it IS possible for the same kid who desperately wants to get into the prestige school to be happy with the state U. or for that matter, the local community college. Kids like this turn right around and put the same amount of energy and enthusiasm into the next phase of their life, wherever it takes place. They simply do not get "unhappy" with their situation, because they see themselves as having ownership over all aspects of their lives -- what they don't like, they change.</p>

<p>But the thing is.. sometimes these kids get lucky, maybe because they aren't afraid to move full speed ahead in pursuit of impossible goals. Which is why it's not such a good idea to discourage them.</p>

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<p>Her new list of schools:</p>

<p>-Huntsman at Penn
-UW
-Dickinson
-Reed
-Boston U
-Vanderbilt
-Johns Hopkins
-Middlebury
-NYU
-Cornell
-Northwestern
-Tufts
-U of Chicago
-Georgetown</p>

<p>Bethievt: Thank you for your offer! We will definitely take that up if she gets into Middlebury.</p>

<p>donleyc: I think she took Emory off because it lacked an Arab program. But it's a good school.</p>

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<p>I like the additions of BU, Dickinson, and Vandy. :) I am glad that she has an open mind and is willing to consider constructive advice at a time that she could still add schools. It is a sign of maturity and an attribute that will serve her well. Good luck to her.</p>

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<p>Yanimated, that's a much more balanced list. The best part: no matter which school she ends up at, she'll get an excellent education.</p>

<p>Now . . . here's to hoping that she gets into Huntsman.</p>