Parent of Worried Daughter with Relatively Interesting Stats--Please Help!

Parents Forum
101

<p>calmom, you are doing a lot of assuming about the why's of the OPdaughter's list and safeties, and reading between the lines of what the poster has said. You may be quite right. In which case, the list as originally stated is fine, dandy and there is no reason for anyone here to second-guess is or suggest alternatives. Among your conclusions is this:
[quote]
I see no indication whatsoever that this kid would be unhappy at UW.

[/quote]
Well, I see a clear and simple indication. The OP has stated that he is the parent of a worried daughter. He has stated that she is "very worried" about the list of schools she is applying to and he has asked whether she shouldn't consider others.</p>

<p>You don't think she needs to; you have projected scenarios under which she will be quite happy under even the least successful outcome most of us predict from this list. Wonderful if you are correct. You also feel she is likely to have a better outcome than many of us fear (not predict, but fear) might happen, as your D who also had test scores as her weak suit had a very good admissions season. I would be the first on the cheering squad if the OP's D has the same type of results. My S is another for whom test scores are the weakest suit for a very strong student. He also had great success in admissions. However, he did NOT get into the one school where his scores didn't cut the mustard. Your D's profile and the OPD's profile are not a match for all of the reasons many have stated. She doesn't look like a standout to us in the type of ECs and experiences we see, so we fear she may not look that way to admissions committees at her uber-selective choices.</p>

<p>I don't believe anyone is being hostile to or attacking the OP. I believe all are trying to bring a sense of the harsh realities which <em>could</em> occur come April. We don't know that they will, we just fear that they could. And we are offering the sought-for advice of other perspectives and suggestions. </p>

<p>I am not the least bit confused about median scores; nor do I think they are a minimum. Kids with scores at or below the median for a given school - some of them - will get into that school. But for anyone to conjure a list which <em>only</em> contains such schools is very poor admissions planning.</p>

<p>Then for the schools which do fit the kid score-wise to go against the stated desires for school type and location is another mistake. There is a good chance that the OPdaughter will thrive and enjoy UW if that is her only choice. I agree. I still don't think it makes sense for her to set herself up for a high probability for it to be her only choice. She should find herself some safety schools which meet her criteria (and the OP has stated that finances are not an issue, so that might include privates even if they are not as prestigious as her top choices) so that she will have choices come April. Then if she chooses UW, it will be a choice and not a default.</p>

<p>You have made some presumptions about why oos publics are off the list and some presumptions about why less elite privates are off the list. I'm not making any such presumptions. I, and others, are just trying to tell the OP how we see the list, what we see as the downsides, how we most assuredly see why his daughter could be feeling worried at this time. We are answering his request for alternatives to consider, or how to go about finding such alternatives.</p>

<p>While no one is hostile or on the attack, imho, I think several are feeling frustration that the OP is not responding to the thoughts provided. You are, and you are guessing how the OP sees things. The OP has absolutley no obligation to respond and share whether any of the thinking here is persuasive. However, it would be appreciated and would help us re-target our thoughts and suggestions. I don't see any point in re-targeting my thoughts and suggestions based on your assumptions, because I have no idea if they actually reflect the perspective of the OP and his daughter.</p>

102

<p>yanimated, since she liked Middlebury, I would suggest some of the other remotely located northeast schools like Williams, Hamilton, Colgate, Skidmore. Kenyon while in the Midwest instead of the NE would also fit in with this group. Williams I know offers both Chinese and Arabic; not sure about the others. They all tend more toward the moderate politically.</p>

<p>I don't have statistical proof but I feel that Asians can be considered URMs at these schools and that being Asian can help. As a general statement Asians prefer urban or suburban over rural and these schools have a hard time getting Asian kids who are academically qualified to matriculate.</p>

<p>Actually I believe that she would be a person of interest to Williams in spite of her relatively low SATs. The school is strong in economics and political science and her international experience would definitely be a plus. </p>

<p>They would also look very positively on her arts involvement. In my opinion her multifaceted profile would be a strong incentive. She could conceivable "theme" her application around her Chinese cultural connection.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how she does.</p>

103

<p>Jmmom, what I saw and I am responding to is the fact that OP listed UW as a "safety". A bunch of people posted that UW could not be a "safety", implying that there was a problem with test scores. I in turn questioned that, based on my own daughter's experience in applying to UW. (My daughter's Russian studies would not have been a "hook" at UW, which has a very strong Russian department with plenty of students -- apparently there are many high schools in Washington that offer Russian.)</p>

<p>When I questioned that, the posters changed tack and argued that it could not be a "safety" because the student didn't want to go there, although there is a not a single post indicating that to be the case. The only ones making assumptions are those that opine that the kid "has no business" applying to UW because she won't be happy there -- since it is already on her list, and since she is likely already very familiar with the UW campus as she lives nearby, it is far more likely that she knows what she was doing when she added it to her list. </p>

<p>So basically, it looks to me like a kid with a top heavy college list and a pretty good safety. I do see a lot of attacking and very little in the way of helping. In fact the thing that got me started in this thread was that someone else suggested Barnard, and then someone else said that Barnard was too much of a reach -- and as a Barnard parent I could see that this kid is exactly the "type" that Barnard ad coms tend to pick, though of course I have no clue as to how many they reject who also fit the profile. But I do know from anecdotal evidence from other Barnard students that the college seems to be full of young women who don't have the "stats" to get in, and yet there they are. So then I came in with my differing opinion and the Barnard pitch.</p>

<p>I don't see where the OP ever asked to have the existing safeties challenged. I can see why the OP wouldn't come back, because it sure seems like there was a hostile tone to me. However, I'd note that the OP DID come back and responded in detail to posts from around 1:30 p.m. until 4:30 p.m. on Saturday. He then told us that his daughter intends to continue studying both Chinese & Arabic in college, that she is "very adaptable" and in any environment "she'll survive", that while she knew her chances at Huntman were slim, she was applying no matter what anyone said. He said, "She's got enough optimism to apply and give it her all on applications, but enough pessimism to not get disparaged when those thin white envelopes come." </p>

<p>Right now, where I am, it is about 2:45 am Sunday morning, and while I am an insomniac who habitually works late and am online at all hours, I don't see any reason to expect a newcomer to this board to mimic the pattern of the cc addicts. Maybe the OP simply plans to check the board only once or twice a day, during daylight hours?? </p>

<p>I showed up with my first post to this particular thread at around 8:30 pm, and I am not at all frustrated that the OP hasn't come back to respond to my comments. I just came in to present a different point of view to the naysayers here, who seem to have found fault with just about everything -- the test scores, the fact that the d. works with her mom, the fact that she isn't in jazz band or orchestra or volleyball at her school, the fact that her dad has a Ph.D. All of these are presented as other points that will count against her in college admissions. I didn't see a single post that seemed to appreciate anything the kid had to offer. </p>

<p>I for one think her high school schedule coupled with the college courses she has taken and the work she has done outside of high school pretty impressive, and I also think it all comes together in a nice profile that is the type of things college ad comes like (the well-lopsided candidate). The interest in Arabic and mideastern studies is a nice twist. I don't think the kid needs volleyball on top of that. I don't think the colleges are going to reject her because she has poor test scores when her parents have advanced degrees (I've got a J.D. as does my daughter's father; didn't seem to hurt her any).</p>

<p>I know what the kid does have, and she appears to have it in spades -- she seems to have a winning, go-for-the-gold attitude. So does my daughter, but quite frankly, my daughter's accomplishments are dwarfed when compared to Yanimated daughter's story and set of accomplishments. So I'm here to present some encouragement, and if I'm the lone voice... so be it.</p>

<p>Oh, and I'm pretty sure the kid will get into U of Chicago, which really loves those creative essays that Yanimated said his daughter wrote, and doesn't give a rat's ass about test scores. Heck, my daughter got in to Chicago with a joke essay. Chicago's got a fairly strong Chinese department and an extremely strong Near Eastern studies department, and only a handful of students majoring in those departments, so this kid will probably look like a pretty good prospect to them.</p>

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<p>I read past posts to say that UW could not be a "safety"--not because of the student's low test scores, but for the reason that she doesn't really want to go there. </p>

<p>Maybe we should make 2 categories of safeties: a "safety", meaning a school that you could get into based on your stats; and a "REAL safety", meaning a school that you could get into based on your stats, your parents could afford it and you wouldn't mind going to it (although maybe not as happy as you could have been at Huntsman or Harvard...).</p>

<p>NSM wrote: "I've seen lots of students who apply to their state flagship as a safety when they really want to go out of state to private colleges. When such students apply to top heavy lists and get into only their in-state public, they are very unhappy."</p>

<p>That happens a lot here in our neck of the So Calif woods (well, suburbs actually). The top kids in the class will apply to the highly selective reach schools back east/out west (HYPSM) and use the UCs as their safety schools. When they are rejected by HYPSM, some are pretty bummed out by having to go to a UC (even Berkeley, UCLA or UCSD!). We pound into our kids heads that they "need a safety", but neglect to emphasize that the safety school needs to be one that fits your criteria and at which you could see yourself happy.</p>

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<p>EllenF--</p>

<p>I had occasion to look at the Harvard Supplement recently. It isn't one that requires extra work/extra essays, although it allows an applicant to send an extra essay/other supplemental material (music tapes, etc.) as part of the application package.</p>

<p>It goes into a little more depth in asking about tests (asks for AP/IB scores, for example).</p>

<p>But what IS interesting is that it asks the applicant to put down a major, a future vocation, what two college ECs interest them, how much they plan to participate in those ECs, and how definite those academic, EC and vocational plans are. They are obviously trying to craft a class--I'm guessing that playing the bassoon isn't going to help your application unless you tell them that you plan to play in the orchestra at college.</p>

<p>Of course, once you get there....</p>

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<p>Actually, I do recall seeing one or two posts suggesting that UW might not be a safety based on the applicant's stats. I recall reading last year that UW was turning away in-state applicants for better qualified oos ones (same thing at UVM where lots of MA students end up going). I don't know enough about UW to say whether this particular applicant might run the risk of being passed over--I have a bit of a hard time believing this.</p>

<p>On the whole, though, most posters, including NSM, have pointed out that a safety that an applicant does not want to attend is no safety. And pointing out the story of Andison, I am sure he would have gotten into UMass-Amherst. And would not have wanted to attend. Hence the gap year.
We are all assuming that the OP's D does not want a gap year and are trying to help her achieve her goal. </p>

<p>Momrath's list is good, except Williams. It has lots of Asian students--and they are very strong.</p>

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<p>"I think its all about the test scores. "</p>

<p>Calmom, while I can't speak for everyone, for me it is the balance and extreme range of environments that has me worried for the OP's daughter. She CAN get into all her schools, but will she? And what then? Last year proved that some guidance counselors had little idea of the vast changes that were taking place in college admissions, and those students who were advised that certain schools were sure-bets often paid the price. I do think that UW is probably a safety, but Reed won't be if they sense that she doesn't really want to go there.</p>

<p>I don't sense much hostility toward the OP, but I do sense concern. </p>

<p>Another concern that I had beside the balance of this list is the huge range in <em>types</em> of learning environments. I can't imagine that the same student who loves NYU and UPenn also loves Middlebury. (I would choose Middlebury myself!) I would like the OP's daughter to take a closer look at her colleges to see whether they really have what she wants. I know that in my daughter's case, she originally didn't care what kind of college she attended, as long as she got to go away, but questions from us gradually narrowed her choices to smaller schools with treed campuses that had strong undergraduate communities. She did not want an undergraduate population larger than 5000 or so. Then she looked at the academics and the courses the schools offered in several areas she wanted to study. That further narrowed her choices. If we and her guidance counselor had not pressed her to do this, she might have ended up at a school that was completely wrong for her.</p>

<p>Another essential step that needs to be taken: if the OP's daughter doesn't get into UPenn ED, then she should have her other applications ready to go. I know one student, a friend of the family, who was told that NYU ED was a "slam dunk" for him. When he didn't get in, he had nothing ready to go. Automatically, then, he could not apply to schools that had a Jan. 1 deadline. (When he applied to NYU, he decided against using the Common Application, figuring it would show his commitment by using their application.)</p>

<p>Again, I don't see these messages as hostile but rather, as cautionary.</p>

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<p>"as a Barnard parent I could see that this kid is exactly the "type" that Barnard ad coms tend to pick,"</p>

<p>Yes, Calmom - and that's one reason why I suggested the other all-women's colleges. Until we started looking at schools, I was against all-women's schools the way my daughter was, but we promised her guidance counselor that we'd look into them. People don't stop to think that, at all-women's schools, ALL the leadership positions go to women, ALL the research opportunities go to women, ALL attention in the classroom is on women. Yes, there are downsides, but the opportunities are enormous. One drawback for some is the liberal atmosphere on those campuses, although not everyone fits the mold.</p>

<p>Still, with admissions officers (like the one at Kenyon) now admitting that they turn away far more qualified women than men, the all-women's colleges are becoming more attractive to female applicants.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
On the whole, though, most posters, including NSM, have pointed out that a safety that an applicant does not want to attend is no safety.

[/quote]
Yes but the OP never said that his daughter did not want to attend UW. He said, *She says she's only looking at the school's academics itself. She's very adaptable; rural or urban, liberal or conservative, she'll survive.<a href="Post%2033">/i</a>. </p>

<p>I'm sorry to belabor the point. I don't know his daughter. I know mine. I know mine had the attitude that come hell or highwater she wanted to get out of California.... AND she told me that she knew that she could be happy anywhere and was absolutely delighted when she received notice that she had been admitted to UC Santa Barbara. When my kid has a setback she is miserable, for about 20 minutes. Honestly, she will call me during the day terribly upset about something, and when I call back a couple of hours later to check up on her, she has forgotten all about whatever it was that had her upset. </p>

<p>Yanimated may be wrong about his daughter's changes, but I don't think a parent is likely wrong about the perception of their kid is very adaptable. It's one of those characteristics that is pretty obvious over time. I think the OP IS looking for suggestions of some other mid-range (match/safety) private, out-of-state schools.... but I think the primary concern really is academics of those schools, as stated. </p>

<p>I'd note that the OP also stated that his daughter knows her chances for Huntsman are very slim, so I don't think its likely that she will hold off preparing her other apps waiting for a fat envelope. </p>

<p>Also, one other thing: my daughter also had some weird juxtaposition of college choices. NYU Gallatin and Brown, because she wanted an open curriculum and the freedom to design her own major. Chicago and Fordham which have a a strong core. Northeastern, because... why not? (OK, Northeastern because it is in with spitting distance of her boyfriend's Boston college, but the point is, the school never did fit her stated criteria ... it's jus that she was intrigued by its co-op program). My son managed to find and apply to 6 LACs that were so interchangeable that they all showed up on the exact same set of Princeton Review top 20 lists. My daughter had a smorgasbord approach with some very different options. Some kids could be very happy in a lot of different settings, and they want to be able to choose from a variety of optioins in the spring (assuming that they don't get into their absolute dream college). So again.. I don't think its fair to assume that because the colleges are very different that they aren't good options.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ALL attention in the classroom is on women

[/quote]
I'll have to ask my daughter how the men in her classes feel about that. ;)</p>

<p>I understand your point.... It's just that Barnard is too closely wedded to Columbia to quite fit that description. Most ECs and activities are also shared with Columbia, and I am sure that many Barnard women apply for and get research positions with Columbia profs -- so I think that Barnard women still live in a world where they regularly work with and sometimes compete with men. Barnard definitely provides an extremely supportive environment, but it just doesn't happen to be testosterone-free.</p>

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<p>Amherst has both Chinese and Arabic, if I remember correctly. Amherst students can also take classes at UMass, which might have extensive language offerings as well. Of course, Amherst is no one's safety or even match, but it might make a good reach school.</p>

<p>For the match/safeties, consider (in addition to Dickinson), Bucknell, Hamilton, Drew, Gettysburg, Davidson, Trinity College, Colby, Bates, Carleton, American, George Washington, Boston University -- just to get the OP started. I don't know anything about the individual departments and what these schools offer, but I do know that most of them take a holistic view (instead of a stats-oriented one.)</p>

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<p>"It's just that Barnard is too closely wedded to Columbia to quite fit that description. "</p>

<p>As you pointed out before, Barnard is different. Still, my d has a few men in her classes as well (5 college consortium), and, ironically, three out of her four professors are men.</p>

<p>I think the city location of Barnard and its close association with Columbia make it a more co-ed environment. (BTW, you might be interested to know that the college conversation I had a few nights ago included the statement, "Well, Barnard no longer exists." I had to correct her. :-)</p>

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<p>I'll say for the third time, I think this girl sounds like a really good (not sure thing) candidate for a whole slew of schools. I second whoever said that it's harder to get Asian students to, e.g., VT, so they may be URMs here. Middlebury is a wonderful school in a beautiful little town (yes, it's cold in the winter, but they have their own ski area and most students learn to ski).</p>

<p>Their language programs are top-notch, and last I knew they did have programs in Chinese and Arabic (don't know the depth or breadth). International studies is a popular major and I'm guessing that with a 7% Asian population, OPs daughter would be viewed differently at Middlebury than she would be at, for example, Carnegie Mellon, with a 23% Asian pop. or Penn with 17% Asian student body. That said, Midd. only accepts about 23% of applicants. It's a crap-shoot for sure, for anyone, but to me, as a Vermonter, I guess I see this student as way more special and standout for her life experiences and personal qualities than, for example, West coasters or NYers might see her.</p>

<p>I agree that Reed is not what I'd call safe enough, though I get the impression Reed is less stats-driven in admissions than many schools and is looking for a certain type of student. I think their test score ranges, like Grinnell's, are high partly because those schools are attractive to kids who are intellectually voracious. Even so, if OPs D would rather have more options than U of W, a few safer schools would be good.</p>

<p>I think the OP has been very responsive. Some people do like to sleep at night.</p>

<p>About Carnegie Mellon, it's very highly regarded in our area, but my impression is that it has a dual focus on arts and technology, more science oriented than this student may be looking for.</p>

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<p>"Jmmom, what I saw and I am responding to is the fact that OP listed UW as a "safety". A bunch of people posted that UW could not be a "safety", implying that there was a problem with test scores. I in turn questioned that, based on my own daughter's experience in applying to UW. (My daughter's Russian studies would not have been a "hook" at UW, which has a very strong Russian department with plenty of students -- apparently there are many high schools in Washington that offer Russian.)</p>

<p>When I questioned that, the posters changed tack and argued that it could not be a "safety" because the student didn't want to go there, although there is a not a single post indicating that to be the case."</p>

<p>I am a poster who from the beginning has been concerned about UW's being the D's safety because it's so different from what the dad said she wants. This has nothing to do with test scores, but has to do with the fact that it's down the street and he has said she doesn't want to go to college on the West Coast.</p>

<p>I have known students who have applied similarly to how the D applied and were very unhapy come April when their only option was to go to the college down the street, which indeed they knew well, but never planned to go to. </p>

<p>While the dad has described his D as adoptable and flexible, that doesn't necessarily mean that she should apply to college in a way that might cause her to have only one option that is extremely different from what she had wanted for herself. If one can avoid such disappointment, that's good idea instead of stretching the limits of the D's flexibility.</p>

<p>I also have asked about what the D's exposure has been to the non West Coast places that she's applying to. While I do see plenty of Californians on CC applying to, for instance, U Cals and Ivies, that doesn't mean that such students end up being happy if they go far from home to a place they've visited only in the lovely early autumn and then find themselves trapped in what feels like an unending bleak, cold winter filled with people who seem uptight compared to the personalities of many on the West Coast.</p>

<p>Some students make that transition well. Others are miserable because college is nothing like their fantasies, and they also would prefer to be closer to home. I went to college with someone like that. She was from Calif., spent 2 years at Harvard, was miserable and trasnferred to Stanford, where she eventually graduated from the medical school.</p>

<p>When it comes to the D, I also have wondered whether she has thought about what it would be like living in parts of the country where Asians are not as large a part of the community's population as they are in places like Seattle and many West Coast cities. With her heavy involvement in the Chinese community, this could be something for her to consider in addition to seeing whether the colleges offer the academic programs that she wants.</p>

<p>The OP has said his D is "worried." Several of us have made suggstions in hopes of easing the worry and of helping the D apply to an array colleges that are likely to provide her with optimal options for fulfillment. We don't know the D. She may or may not be like people we know, so we are giving our best advice from that perspective. As always, the poster can take what advice he needs and leave the rest.</p>

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<p>I guess what I don't understand is, after 100+ posts of people suggesting that they consider a few other schools the poster seems to be holding fast.</p>

<p>Since, evidently, price is no object, I wonder why is it so difficult for him to suggest to his daughter that she add a few other great schools to the list that she would qualify for nicely and have a great experience at (there are many I'm sure)?</p>

<p>I don't know, in this household, if price were no object, we could craft 100 different college lists - any of which would be great. </p>

<p><em>sigh</em></p>

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<p>We're going around in circles so I'm not going to repeat myself. The dad never said that the daughter was worried that she wouldn't like UW or that she wouldn't attend colleges on the west coast. He said that she was trying to get away from public schools and the west coast "in general". "In general" doesn't mean the same as "absolutely".</p>

<p>But the bottom line is that he never asked people to second-guess the safety. He asked if his daughter should consider additional colleges, not which ones should be removed from the list. </p>

<p>I'm sorry you have met so many unhappy students. I guess the kids I know are more resilient, so I have a different take on it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I am a poster who from the beginning has been concerned about UW's being the D's safety because it's so different from what the dad said she wants. ...it's down the street and ....on the West Coast..... While the dad has described his D as adoptable and flexible, that doesn't necessarily mean that she should apply to college in a way that might cause her to have only one option ....If one can avoid such disappointment, that's good idea instead of stretching the limits of the D's flexibility.

[/quote]
Bingo. And it's public which he has said she doesn't want. To parse his sentence, analyzing the meaning of "in general" vs. "absolute" is off the mark imho.</p>

<p>What is so hard to understand about what we are saying? Okay, some few may have questioned whether she'll be admitted. But what most of us are saying is that to have this as her ONLY safety is misguided. I don't think most of us are emphasizing any need to REMOVE it as a safety; we all know kids and their preferences can evolve from now until April. The dad says she's flexible and "she'll live." This is a great characteristic. But why would she set up a list maximizing the probability of waking up on April 2 to say "I'll live." My son is resilient to the max and his resilience was tested to the max in his first college year. Doesn't mean I would have set it up this way had I known.</p>

<p>The dad asked for help and suggestions. The predominant focus of this thread has been clear and simple. Expand the list so that it is not so top-heavy; include safeties which fit her stated criteria. Very simple.</p>

<p>If instead, the dad prefers to start prepping his daughter for disappointment, while hoping that won't happen, she has a perfect list.</p>

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<p>Weenie, he probably hasn't woken up yet. It's 7:45 am here on the west coast. As a newbie he might not have figured out that CC'er expect him to monitor the forum 24/7. He is probably going to be very surprised when he logs in and finds so much discussion since his post #62, where he explained that there are more than one dialects of Chinese and his daughter is not a native speaker of Mandarin.</p>

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<p>"As a newbie he might not have figured out that CC'er expect him to monitor the forum 24/7."</p>

<p>Imagine! :D:</p>

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<p>well * I'm * up!
:D
THis thread has been reassuring to *me *anyway
My D who has learning disabilities and refuses to allow me to even look at her work one bit has similar grades although she is in grade level math, not Calc & she got an A in Photography.
So perhaps I should be more confident about her chances of getting into a more competitive school?
:)</p>

<p>did everyone remember to set their clock back?</p>