Parent reneges on financial commitment to Brown

[justbreathe]

<p>Ugh it won’t let me edit.
Anyway, my dad also promised a certain amount of money, then didn’t follow through after I had committed and everything so my mother is picking up his slack to the tune of an extra $15,000 a year. </p>

<p>Anyway, Brown does let one not count the noncustodial parent in extreme circumstances—abuse, neglect, drug addiction, or a long history of being a useless loser(“failing to support” is the proper term I believe they use)–so, like I mentioned earlier, failing to pay child support.</p>

<p>And I looked it up in my own FA package, but sophomore year on students are expected to contribute about $3,000 themselves each year.</p>

[marite]

<p>$3,000 per year is doable through term-time and summertime work. I would expect no less. My concern is that the $7.5k shortfall is on top of the budgeted $3,000 or whatever.</p>

<p>I’m glad you are able to manage with help from your mother. It does not seem that the young woman Redondave is writing about could do the same if her mom already works two jobs. I truly hope that Brown can be persuaded to up the finaid.</p>

[owlice]

<p>marite, we don’t know how much debt there might be. We don’t know enough about the situation. As I’ve previously posted, there may be things this student can do to mitigate the amount of the debt she would have to take on. </p>

<p>She may be able to graduate a semester (perhaps even a year) early by using AP credits ([Advanced</a> Placement Information](<a href=“Advanced Placement (AP) Exams | The College | Brown University”>Advanced Placement (AP) Exams | The College | Brown University)) and perhaps summer courses at a less expensive school (such as CC where she lives). She may be able to cut some of the cost of her R&B by being an RA. And so on.</p>

<p>We can get close to what the max might be, but we don’t know how much she could shave off that max by a number of different methods.</p>

<p>There are options out there besides CC and a gap year, and I hope she explores them all before deciding not to go to Brown.</p>

<p>goaliedad, you might have a bit of a wait in that line, because I may have to smack the guy more than once. Or twice.</p>

[marite]

<p>

One of the conditions was that each of her divorced parents would pay $7500 per year towards her tuition,room & board, et al. All other costs were included in a grant from Brown. The father had agreed to this when he completed the papers. Now he is refusing to pay his $7500. The mother cannot afford to pick up the other $7500 portion. She works two jobs and has two younger children and provides the best that she can.

</p>

<p>This is what I am working from. I’m pretty sure that even students who are on full ride have to contribute to their education and this is factored in when calculating how much the family must contribute. I am reluctant to assume that the student can earn more than what Brown estimates. I know it can be done: my S is earning good money this summer. But this is not a prudent course of action, just as relying on a money-making post college career is not a prudent scenario.</p>

<p>And really, I cannot see what is so great about 3 years racing through Brown vs. a gap year and four years at a different but still excellent college with more adequate financial aid, or a year at a CC and transfer to a top university, including within the UC system. Am I the only one not bowled over by the glory of an Ivy?</p>

[cmbmom]

<p>I will get in line for a smack at the dad, also. What a rotten thing to do.</p>

<p>If this were my child, I would send her to Brown at least for this year. Things could change - maybe the dad would reconsider, maybe Brown would change their offer for next year. The worst case scenario would be that the student would have to transfer to a less expensive school for soph year.</p>

[Consolation]

<p>This gives a new meaning to the word “smackeroos.” </p>

<p>It’s too bad that Brown in the school in question, because Brown is not the best-endowed Ivy, nor the most generous with FA. My understanding is that they have been known to shrug their shoulders and say “Too bad” when students couldn’t attend for financial reasons. Nevertheless, she should appeal. They may come up with a thousand or two more, which would keep her debt down.</p>

<p>Taking a gap year and applying to other schools is infinitely better than going to CC, IMHO. Sure, you can rack up some credits at CC, but then you are applying as a transfer. And it is not only the post-graduate income that gives value to college. It is the educational experience. With all due respect to CCs, there is simply no way in hell that the educational experience is going to measure up to that of Brown or any other school of its ilk. </p>

<p>I would also remind everyone that HYP are not the only options for “need-blind schools that will meet 100% need” schools that are likely to be more generous than Brown AND offer a similar educational experience. Dartmouth, Amherst, Pomona, and possibly Bowdoin are good examples. </p>

<p>The likelihood that merit money from any school will exceed or even equal the package she apparently got from Brown–assuming a rough COA of $53K, apparently something in the neighborhood of $38K, leaving aside any loans/work study that we don’t know about–is slim to none. The likelihood is that merit schools will leave her with an even bigger gap. If she takes a gap year and reapplies, she should certainly include at least one school with available full-ride merit scholarships on her list, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it. She could, however, apply for substantial scholarships such as Coca Cola ($10K per year), Lowes ($5K per year), and local ones that may chip off a couple thousand from that gap. </p>

<p>Given our financial situation, rolling the dice on the 100% need schools was something we needed to do. The difference between what S was offered by them and by the “merit” school that was his safety was HUGE, even though the merit school gave him a $10K per year merit award plus a ridiculously small amount of “need-based” aid. Yes, that school has $30K merit awards available, but he wasn’t considered for one, despite being at the very top of their stats. And even if he HAD gotten the $30K scholarship, he STILL would have had to pay more out of pocket every year to attend the merit school than at two much more selective alternatives, both on my list above.</p>

<p>Personally, I think she should go to Brown and look for ways to close the gap, including scholarships and legal action against her jerk father. If the man really doesn’t have the money, that’s one thing…but then why did he sign the agreement?</p>

[mini]

<p>The problem is that we don’t truly know what the Next Best Alternative (NBA) is - is it a local state university? the cc? taking a year off? So we have no real basis for comparison.</p>

<p>Typically, a package at Brown will include loans and work-study figured into the package, so that won’t help. I think, however, that, for low-income students, Brown took away the expectation of summer work, assuming that the families might need the money. (But I’m not sure the student would be considered low-income.) So the $30k plus in additional loans would be on top of already existing loan expectation (typically Staffords, with a max of a round $19k). So, roughly, it would be $50k over four years. At 6.8% over 10 years (1% origination fee), that works out to $582 a month. It’s a lot. But how it compares with the NBA we just don’t know.</p>

[mam1959]

<p>consolation - i have been through this myself. The student is far better relying on herself - if the father is balking now, it will only get worse. And legal action is way too slow, expensive and trying, especially if against a parent. The young person needs to be spending her energies on the here and now, and a father’s refusal to expend resources on her development of human capital should speak volumes to her as to how difficult he will continue to be deal with. </p>

<p>Years ago, I was admitted to several Ivy League schools - dearly wanted to go. My divorced mother was unemployed, but my father was exceedingly well off - yet at the same time hiding assets from my mother. Financial aid was a no go without a sustained period on my own - and my father wouldn’t even think of completing any financial forms - which would have been a joke in any event had he been remotely honest. That wasn’t going to happen. </p>

<p>Both my twin brother and I were in the same boat - good students well above the mean of the Ivy League admission stats. We both figured out quickly that life without father was not only the reality, but the smart thing to do. We were not saddled with debt - we were lucky enough to be at the All American level in our sport and went to very highly ranked, but not Ivy League, schools, on Div. 1 athletic scholarships. We both never really liked the athletic scholarship life, did not like the jock stigma which clearly did not apply to us, and spent most of our energies trying to be as serious in terms of studies as Div. 1 - aka professional athletics - would permit. Not sure whether I really ever enjoyed my college years - rigorous training always on the cusp of either incredible soreness or injury - zero social life, and happy and stimulating but always rushed experiences in the classroom. But the smartest thing was to learn early not to rely on an unreliable and less than honest partner in our education - in preference for the person in the mirror. To the young person at issue here, I would quickly get in the frame of mind to go on your own - and carefully measure the impact of debt. If the debt is too much, then Brown may not work - such is life - and maybe not in the end a bad thing. My own daughters are attending the schools of their choice - no questions asked - because what I couldn’t do in my own younger days I can now do for them - and whatever my considerable flaws, the karma of making the next generation better just feels like the right thing to do.</p>

[franglish]

<p>

I should note that for freshman year Brown eliminates the idea of “work study” and replaces it with a grant, but for sophomore through senior year, the EFC will go up to include the work study requirement.

</p>

<p>No, unfortunately this part of the financial aid policy is changing for incoming freshmen. This had been the case up to and including last year; now that is no longer true. This is due, in part, I believe, to Brown’s eliminating loans for families whose income is <$60,000, and limiting them for incomes above that. It balances their output. </p>

<p>As far as this young woman’s admission in ED, wouldn’t that admission be mitigated by this dire change in finances? So, Brown might be willing to release her from the binding contract. However, Brown also says, in their FAQs about FA:

What should I do if my non-custodial parent is unwilling to contribute or complete the Non-Custodial Parent Statement (NCPS) application requirement?</p>

<p>A. Brown believes that the primary responsibility for educational expenses lies with the student and the family. As such, Brown requires the submission of non-custodial income information detailing the parent’s ability, not willingness, to contribute. Should parents discontinue their financial support for reasons other than ability to pay, Brown will not assume the parental responsibility for financial support of the student.</p>

<p>The Office of Financial Aid has a standard letter that can be mailed directly to the non-custodial parent explaining that submission of the NCPS will be used to measure but does not obligate the parent to contribute to the student’s educational expenses. The letter will explain the reason for Brown’s request. If you would like our office to send this letter, please contact us with the non-custodial parent’s full name and address.</p>

<p>Waivers of non-custodial information are granted in very limited circumstances, such as abuse, neglect, drug addiction, and a long-standing documented history of refusal to support applicant. If you believe that your situation fits one of these special situations, please download and complete the Noncustodial Parent Waiver Petition in the Forms section of our website. Do not leave any questions blank.</p>

<p>Students are advised to first make a reasonable effort to gain support from their non-custodial parent. If this obstacle persists, students should make an appointment with a financial aid counselor. First, a financial aid counselor can determine if your circumstance warrants an exception, which is granted in very rare circumstances such as situations of abuse and neglect. Second, a counselor can advise you on your student loan borrowing options to help manage this difficult situation.

</p>

<p>So, maybe FA Office can help her out.</p>

[owlice]

<p>marite,</p>

<p>It’s not because Brown is an Ivy; it’s because 1.) Brown is an excellent school; 2.) Brown has given her a very good package; 3.) a bird in the hand is worth something here.</p>

<p>That is why I hope this student explores ALL her options, based on the information that SHE has, information WE don’t have. Of course we are all going by what information has been provided about the situation; you’re not alone in that!</p>

<p>Next year is likely to be at least as competitive as this year, is my understanding. I’d hate to see this student let go of what is an excellent aid package that she has in hand now for an uncertainty unless she really cannot find a way to make it work.</p>

[marite]

<p>Yeah, but there ARE many excellent schools. Brown is not the end-all and be-all. I think that any top 50 school would provide her with an excellent education. So would many of the UCs.</p>

<p>The good package is like a beautiful dress in the wrong size. Try as you might, you cannot make it work for you? Don’t buy it. Bird in hand? If this one lays a Faberge egg, I’d say okay. But if posters think that it’s a golden goose, they ought to reconsider.</p>

<p>Sorry if I don’t join the chorus urging this young woman to saddle herself with $40 to $50k debt.
Can a graduate easily find a job that would enable him or her to pay off $582+ per month according to Mini’s calculation on top of rent, food, gas, car insurance, health insurance, etc…? I speak as the parent of a child who graduated from a top LAC who now has a decent job (but after getting an advanced degree at our expenses–no scholarships). There is absolutely no way he could handle that extra $582 per month.</p>

[owlice]

<p>marite, I’m certainly not encouraging this student, nor any student, to take on $40K of debt; see my previous posts. And yes, there are many excellent schools, and Brown is not the end-all and be-all. NO ONE has suggested otherwise. </p>

<p>Can you guarantee that she would be able to get as good an education elsewhere for $15K/year? Because right now, that’s what she and her mom have to come up with – $15K/year – and her mom is apparently able to come up with half of that.</p>

<p>Why on earth wouldn’t you encourage a student with an excellent aid package at an excellent school she wants to attend to explore all options before turning it down?! That’s all many of us are trying to do – give the student options to explore!</p>

[mini]

<p>“Can a graduate easily find a job that would enable him or her to pay off $582+ per month according to Mini’s calculation on top of rent, food, gas, car insurance, health insurance, etc…?”</p>

<p>Finaid.org figures that an income of $69.5k would be required, assuming the student doesn’t live in a particularly high-rent city. There are very few occupations for which that would be true in the first 10 years following graduation (again, leave out the high-rent cities).</p>

<p>The number is likely higher, in that I figured the additional $30k at 6.8% interest, only beginning to accrue after graduation. The likelihood is that it is substantially higher. So figure more like $80k (again, presuming not in a high-rent city).</p>

[Consolation]

<p>I agree with Owlice. Yes, Brown is not the be-all and end-all of schools. But:</p>

<p>A) There is NO guarantee that next year the girl would be able to get into one of the schools that are fairly certain to at least match Brown’s very generous package, because they are all very selective also.
B) There is NO guarantee that even if she does get into one of them that they will give her significantly more money than Brown has.
C) The lower down the academic totem pole you go the LESS money is available as need-based aid, which is what this girl needs. Merit aid is not going to cut the mustard for her unless she gets something close to a true full ride: tuition plus room and board.
D)True full rides are very, very rare and very, very hard to get. Having been good enough to get into Brown ED only <strong>possibly</strong> puts her in the ballpark of getting such a scholarship, it definitely does not guarantee it.
E) The likelihood is that all 100% need schools are going to look at the figures and come up with something like Brown did. Because they are ALL going to look at the father’s income and assets. And she STILL won’t be able to afford it. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, she has an acceptance and a big financial package in hand from Brown. It makes more sense to me to take it one year at a time: go to Brown, and devote energy to finding scholarships and other ways to decrease the debt load in future years. (It is also true that once she is actually at Brown she is one of theirs, and they may be willing to work with her to find ways for her to afford it.)</p>

[marite]

<p>Owlice;</p>

<p>I’ve already said that if she can persuade Brown to reconsider, great. But if not, I don’t want to encourage her to eat pie in the sky. </p>

<p>I’ve suggested that she apply to some other schools that very possibly would give her a more generous finaid package than Brown, which is not well endowed compared to HYPS. I know that colleges, even when presented with the same finaid application, make different finaid offers. </p>

<p>I cannot believe that someone who was admitted to Brown ED would not be very competitive at other colleges. </p>

<p>Thanks for the info, Mini. My top LAC graduate makes half that salary. But he does not have a $582 a month millstone around his neck.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>If the student has a $15k EFC, under Brown’s new FA plan, I don’t think she is carrying any loans in her FA package. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>All undergraduate financial aid recipients with total parent incomes less than $100,000 will no longer have a loan component in their awards. Loans will be replaced with scholarship funds. Students with family earnings above $100,000 will have a significant reduction in loans.
Families with total parent earnings less than $60,000 and assets less than $100,000 will no longer be required to make a contribution toward the cost of education.
Families with total parent earnings less than $60,000 and assets greater than $100,000 will have significantly reduced contributions.
Students will now be able to use outside scholarships to eliminate all of the student-effort components in their awards including the summer savings expectation.

</p>

<p>What every one must remember that even if the student gets out side scholarships, they will first reduce the self help aid in her package (in this case it would be the work study). After reducing her self help aid, Brown will then reduce their grant aid. Out side scholarships will not reduce the loans she has taken to meet the cost of the EFC. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>**What happens if I receive an outside scholarship? **</p>

<p>Outside scholarships and employer tuition benefits are an excellent way to help reduce the need to work and/or borrow student loans while at Brown. When you receive an outside scholarship, our office is required to reevaluate your financial aid award and account for the additional resource.</p>

<p>Outside scholarships can be used to reduce the entire amount of student effort. Student effort includes campus employment, student loans, and the standard summer earnings expectation. ** Federal regulations stipulate that outside scholarships cannot be used to replace the Parent Contribution or any additional Student Contribution derived from student assets.**</p>

<p>If your outside scholarships exceed your student effort, your Brown University Scholarship will be reduced, in which case you may wish to consider taking advantage of the Brown Computer Purchase Program. More information about Outside Scholarships and the Computer Purchase Program is available in our Frequently Asked Questions. </p>

<p><a href=“http://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=298[/url]”>http://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=298&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

[owlice]

<p>sybbie,</p>

<p>Good info. The student could apply her earnings from the summer (the “summer savings expectation”) to pay part of the tuition her parents (read: mother) has to pay (which is the $15K/year, her agreed-upon amount of $7.5K and the slappable dad’s $7.5K share), and that would indeed reduce the amount that needed to be borrowed, yes?</p>

<p>Brown is not insisting she take loans as part of the package, it looks like, though she needs to make up the gap that now exists, the $7.5K/year that her father is now not going to pay.</p>

<p>Am I missing something here?</p>

[marite]

<p>I interpreted the budget as already taking into account that the student would be responsible for contributing her term time and summer earnings to cover a portion of her grant. I know that’s what happens at Harvard. So the $15k per year would have to come from the parents or from loans. </p>

<p>

Federal regulations stipulate that outside scholarships cannot be used to replace the Parent Contribution or any additional Student Contribution derived from student assets.

So the $15k EFC still stands, and the student is still faced with the $7.5k per year shortfall.</p>

[UCLA_Band_Mom]

<p>Back to a quote from the original post</p>

<p>

She works two jobs and has two younger children and provides the best that she can. **The father and the girl have had an estranged relationship since the divorce **and now has decided that he will not pay for his daughter to get the education that she has strived her entire life for. Brown financial aid office has been no help. The girl is at her wit’s end and is thinking about throwing in the towel and going to Community College.

</p>

<p>Has the daughter considered repairing the “estranged relationship” she has with her father? Maybe that is what he is trying to accomplish.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>

The student could apply her earnings from the summer (the “summer savings expectation”) to pay part of the tuition her parents (read: mother) has to pay

</p>

<p>I doubt it as this money probably has already been earmarked for her to use as her start up cost when arriving to campus: book money, trip home, laundry, etc. especially because they don’t work freshman year.</p>