<p>And I think we old timers would agree: If the OP is fortunate to be admitted and the family can afford the offer, they will accept it!</p>
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<p>Most applicants, even those with extraordinary qualifications, get rejected by Columbia. It’s one of the most selective universities in the country. An applicant’s chances of admission are a little better ED than RD, but that’s a lot like saying that it’s more likely to snow in September than in July.</p>
<p>Know what? We don’t know OP’s financial details- or even if he is a good candidate for Columbia or just hoping ED will tip him. But, from his attention to posts here and his responses, I think he’s paying attention to the input and carefully considering his best decisions.</p>
<p>cpt: If the mother seriously wanted “free,” she has more or less missed the boat. The Columbia net price calculator said “$5,000” for her, which is awfully close to free in collegeworld. If (again, big if) the OP get into Columbia, it’s not a question of free vs. $30K for her. It’s a question of fantasy vs. $5K, and turning down the $5K for the fantasy. That would be dumb.</p>
<p>mini: You are right that comparative shopping is inconsistent with ED. But it takes several gaps of logic to say that means the OP should convert his application to RD “NOW”. By keeping the application ED, the OP is merely putting himself in a situation where, if he wants to compare offers, Columbia will be out of the question. It’s perfectly OK for him, effectively, to let Columbia make a first offer, and then decide whether it’s good enough to foreclose shopping. And it doesn’t have to be the best possible offer to foreclose shopping, just good enough that the possible gains from shopping don’t seem worth the risk of giving up a first choice and not doing better.</p>
<p>I know you have a big psychic investment in railing against ED as a way colleges favor the rich (and I agree with your analysis on that), but it’s perverse to make a crappy system for applicants look crappier than it really is so you can condemn it more effectively.</p>
<p>Actually, a case could be made that ED favors the well-informed and astute. While this is a proxy for the wealthy in many cases, it remains that ED is one of the best tools for the zero and very low EFC students, and perhaps the most erroneously harpooned admission crutch.</p>
<p>Columbia is the first I’ve seen in a while that shows sample packages. Seems so many skipped that when they went to NPC. </p>
<p>Thing is, when you have an OP actually listening, I believe we should be cautious about running off to draw a line in the sand just based on our personal feelings about ED.</p>
<p>If OP stays ED and the offer backfires, (as it could if a parent is self-employed,) he loses any shot at Columbia. If he converts to RD, he has all the offers to compare. If he is a borderline candidate, hoping for an edge, he loses that in RD. He seems mature enough to tackle that decision.</p>
<p>Mom wanting something that costs less than 5k-- face it, we all know there is a slim possibility of this. Even Kenyon leaves it subjective.</p>
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<p>Thanks, I’ll look into that and see. :)</p>
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<p>I applied for myself. My mother is the one that wants to look over other offers, which I can understand, it makes sense.</p>
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<p>Great idea. I’ll call tomorrow (I’m Pacific Time so they’re closed by now) since I have early release. </p>
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<p>I’m not sure if it makes a difference as far as this thread goes, but I am latino. </p>
<p>Anyways, thank you everyone for your input. I am tempted now to move my application to RD but would like some more opinions with this new information: </p>
<p>My mom and dad spoke over the phone. My dad said my mom was concerned about how I would react to Columbia, and she says she’d rather I go to school in California. FA at Columbia is insanely generous and I don’t see how I could replicate something like that, save going to the local, in state CSU or UC (which even then would amount to over $5k/year), or getting into a school like Stanford.</p>
<p>My dad also shared with me that my mom got a lot of money from the divorce – $150k from my dad’s retirement and $85k when he actually retires in June (figures he quoted to me, not sure how accurate or if any taxes apply, etc). She makes about $85k/year, to put it in perspective. I’m not sure how this will affect the financial aid deal if I do get one. Would it cost me the $10k we were looking at, leading me to look at something like $25 or $30 thousand? Naturally the $85k won’t show up for this year, but it WILL show up next year – and that means I could be stuck at Columbia with my parents paying a lot more than my first year. The NPC doesn’t ask about retirement, but the PROFILE <em>does,</em> so inevitably I think Columbia will consider it, too. </p>
<p>If this is the case then, I feel as if I should apply RD and see what merit scholarships I can get, hopefully they can be substantial enough to offset this new information. This is all incredibly frustrating but I am glad I found this before it got a lot worse.</p>
<p>Let me tell you why I do not like ED unless there are well informed parents supporting this venue. First of all. even among the most selective schools, with the most generous aid packages, with just a few exceptions (and other than Harvard, I don’t know of the others), aid packages can vary greatly even among schools claiiming to use the same methodology. Both Sybbie and Katwkittens, long time members on this forum have personally experienced this. Some school integrate PELL into the award, have student contribution requirements, include loans and work study in their packages, have different ways of handling outside awards,count home equity differently and flat out have differnt formulas. A several thousand dollars difference in costs can make a very big difference in the lives of low income families or any family having financial difficulties. The other thing is that the financial aid information is done before the year is over and with estimates. Many people have trouble getting it together seriously when it isn’t time to do those all important tax forms and for an “estimate”. Also between the time the info is gathered and the forms are filed, there could be significant changes. Also, ED is such a “Big Mo” thing. If the student is accepted and an offer made, the impetus is to accept, try to work it out. It’s all the kid pretty much has and the chorus is saying “accept, accept, accept” and you have your kid’s puppy dog eyes looking at you begging. So psychologically, it’s tough to say no, not having any idea if this is going to be a typical offer and you are just going to have pay this amount at any school, or if there are better birds out in those bushes. Having seen many priorities change in April when all the offers are on the table, it’s really putting a family in a rough situation when there is just the one offer to take or refuse. </p>
<p>In the OP’s situation, just reading what he has written, I see red flags everywhere. If Columbia’s NPC is showing a $5K per parent contribution, I rather doubt Kenyon is going to be giving more. If the OP gets the full tuition scholarship, there is still room, board, supplies,transportation, etc that has to be paid, and it’s not as though K is going to give financial aid on top of the merit award. So really, the cost come out to be about the same, and even less for Columbia, if indeed the $10K figure is correct. The mother has to be pushed to give the financials and is suddenly concerned about financial aid and is more interested in merit makes me wonder what is going on here, especially since the cost is about the same and even less for C with the info as given. Was some lump sum payment given, is there some money there that Mom does not want divulged, is there a future marriage possibly in the works which could but a wrench in the fin aid works, did Mom misrepresent assets during divorce asset settlement that could come to light in all of this? Also we don’t know how straightforward the assets and income are for either parent. The NPC is only as good as the info given to it. So I smell some fish around here. For whatever reason, the mom is not on board, and that is a problem wth ED, Maybe she won’t be able to even pay the $5K needed, and maybe more than $5K will be needed. This is not a smooth flying case where both parents are bending over backwards to make it work, and it makes no sense.</p>
<p>I don’t know how great Columbia’s aid packages are either. They do include loans, including institutional ones in their package and they integrate outside awards inot their packages. </p>
<p>Yes, the student can turn down the acceptance offer, if he is accepted early and the package is a no go, but mom might be playing “chicken” here, hoping against hope fora better offer in the merit area. If the chips are down, maybe she would pay up. But for whatever reason, she thinks that the Kenyon chances are better and this can lead to all kinds of unpleasant scenes. All we know here is that for some reason, she is not on board for this. </p>
<p>All probably a moot point of discussion as the offers are soon to come and OP has to decide on his own what to do. But these are reasons why I don’t like ED in general, and in this case.</p>
<p>There was a situation some months ago where a dad was looking at ED at a school. In that case, he was informed, on board and was aware of all of the risks and pitfalls of ED. He was willing to make a stretch even if the money was a bit short, MOm was on board. It looked like a go to me, and so I said. But even then there were issues he had not thought about. In his case, he was willing to take those risks but most of the time parents are not so informed. A full PELL kid who might be able to keep his PELL money as an extra, keep outside scholarships, especially when some nice big fat ones come through, not have a student required contribution–all of these things might swing a decision over. When ED works out, and statistically it almost always does, partly because of who usually applies ED and also because of the push to accept it, it’s beautiful. Wdoes second hand smoke from pot make you highhen it doesn’t, it’s is ugly, ugly, ugly and can hurt financially.</p>
<p>“mini: You are right that comparative shopping is inconsistent with ED. But it takes several gaps of logic to say that means the OP should convert his application to RD “NOW”.”</p>
<p>Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Colleges set up ED programs so as to provide applicants a sense of security in receiving admissions offers in December (or more likely, rejections, so they can move on.) In exchange, they ask for the applicants to give up the right to compare offers. If the OP and family can’t abide by this agreement, they shouldn’t have signed it.</p>
<p>OrangeD - which parent signed the ED agreement?</p>
<p>mini: My father signed the agreement. He read it and was OK with the language, and still is.</p>
<p>The idea to go ED was yours initially, not either parents. Because you wanted Columbia. Sounds like your mom has misgivings and did not sign the ED agreement,your dad did. Is she the custodial parent? Who is agreeing to added costs for airfare,hotels,etc? ED seems to work best for kids that are either wealthy (money is no object) or with very low EFC’s ,it seems.</p>
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<p>At the risk of appearing dense, I have problems following this discussion about full Pell kids “keeping” the money as extra or keeping “fat” scholarships. Perhaps, this is a reference to have access to the portion of the COA that covers travel and incidentals, but otherwise, it is pretty well known that “keeping” extras is incompatible with need based aid, and that the only way to keep scholarship money is to be in the full pay category, or find a scholarship program that would colloborate to switch the money to equipment purchase. </p>
<p>The student required contribution is very much standard at all generous schools with the possibility of using outside scholarship to reduce the expected summer earnings. But again, that is not the same as “keeping” extra. As we know, as soon as one obtains need based aid, the total of the funding cannot exceed the COA.</p>
<p>I recommend keeping the ED app in for different reasons that other posters, though those reasons are good too. </p>
<p>1) It’s significantly easier to get into Columbia ED
2) A 3-2 program at Columbia would be ON THE SAME CAMPUS at Columbia Engineering! Most people fail to complete the 3-2 program because they don’t want to leave their happy college lives before graduating, but the all-Columbia option makes that moot. The OP would get to spend 5 years at Columbia on financial aid. The education you would get this way (core+engineering) would be enviable.
3) If you pull the ED application the probability is very good that you a) won’t get into Columbia RD, and b) won’t get the merit scholarship either. Both of these are really competitive. </p>
<p>My vote is to trust dad when he says that he will pay and stick to your guns. Good luck.</p>
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<p>Stanford is also known to have generous need-based financial aid, but is also a very difficult school to get into. Its early admissions program is REA, not ED. (REA = restricted EA, where you agree not to apply ED anywhere else, nor EA to private non-rolling-admissions schools in the US where there is no requirement to apply early for scholarships.)</p>
<p>Mom earns 85k and the NPC showed her EFC as 5k-? We really don’t know your picture. That seems low. A poster such as Mom2collegekids or kelsmom (former FA) who are far more up on these things, can better advise. [You can see why you need to speak with FA and ask. Not just the first person to answer; aim for an officer.]</p>
<p>Retirement assets are protected. It will matter whether Mom is getting a lump sum or a transfer of funds to her own protected account(s.) Yes, the CSS asks about retirement funds, but somewhere it says, to guage the family’s financial strength- ie, not to tap those as resources.</p>
<p>Parent assets (liquid, savings accts, etc,) are usually tapped at about 6%- so, generally, 100k sitting in an account, might get assessed at say, 6k/year. </p>
<p>Columbia does not package loans. They allow students to choose to take the Staffords. Even though the recent Columbia financial aid enhancements have eliminated student loans from the initial financial aid award, students may still choose to finance their education through a combination of student loans, parent loans and/or monthly payment plans.</p>
<p>My older kid in 2005 had interest in only 3 schools-UVa (his state school), Duke, and Princeton (who expressed some athletic interest). All had ED. We did not want him to apply ED to a private without the numbers. This was before better financial aid policies at many privates. Luckily, UVa and Princeton have moved to EA since then-seems much,much better than ED for the vast majority of kids. Sometimes guidance counselors ,coaches or even CC parents will encourge kids to go wherever they are capable of getting into,regardless of the cost or hardhsip to the family. It is very easy to spend other people’s money.</p>
<p>OP- when you refer to NPC, you aren’t confusing that with Fafsa, are you? Ie, when you say, *The NPC doesn’t ask about retirement, but the PROFILE <em>does,</em> *
Fafsa asks a limited number of questions, to determine fed eligibility. The NPC is via the admissions page, a calculator based on the college’s policies. Was that just a slip here?</p>
<p>If the mom’s income is $85,000 a year, her family contribution per FAFSA would be in the $20,000 per year range…or so. </p>
<p>For the Profile schools, you would presumably have that $20,000 contribution from the mom PLUS whatever the dad’s contribution would be.</p>
<p>$5000 seems like a very low EFC for an income of $85,000.</p>
<p>Agreed, $5000 EFC seems very low. It is also very easy for kids to try to spend their parent’s money. The parents need to be very clear with the OP about what they are willing to spend to help him go to a dream school. I would imagine this is more complicated with divorced parents with differing views.</p>
<p>Xiggi, Pell does not have to be integrated witn financial aid. A college can give full need and the kid can also get PELL on top of it. Not so the subsidzed loans. Most schools will integrate the PELL to be the first layer of aid and then give school aid for the rest (and/or Staffords/Perkins, WS, Seogh sometimes). But not all schoools, and not all of the time. Also some colleges will let kids keep outside scholarship money and not reduce the school’s portion of financial aid; yes double dipping still can happen. Federal aid, again, other than PELL have to be reduced when that happens, but a school can do what it pleases with its money.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that “need” can be defined in many different ways, and even a full need met guaranteed school may not be the best financial deal for a student. Another school might have policies that benefit that student more in terms of financial aid.</p>
<p>As for the OP, there are just too many things happening here that make no sense for me to support an ED bid for him, though of course, it is possible that it will work out just fine, or be a moot point anyways.</p>