<p>I have looked very carefully into IB as in the part of the world I live it is the standard educational model in many schools and at the school my 2 older children graduated from. I have been in many classrooms where IB at all levels is the mode of instruction. I was thinking of the office in the Hague when I ‘misspoke’. </p>
<p>The IB curriculum suits some students, not all, and I think that the jury is still out as to whether it is the ‘best for the world’ as it purports. In this part of the world, the most IB of the IB schools (doing it the longest, providing it as the only educational option) excludes from the last 2 years of the program, the culmination of the experience, students who will not be ‘successful’ on the IB diploma. This is to preserve the school’s statistics. This means that kids can attend a school for 12 years (including preschool) and then be exited. These are students who no doubt would score high enough to get a diploma, but not at the average school level which is 37-38.</p>
<p>If this is what is pegged as ‘best for the world’- count me out… </p>
<p>As for the American comment… the program is an ‘International’ program but highly influenced by European models. Since when does ‘international’ not include American?</p>
My son felt the same way about all his high school English classes, but skipped out early. Opting out of both AP English classes in high school. (And happily doing “Mysteries” as an elective senior year which he loved.) He took philosophy at Tufts and I can’t say it agreed with him, but it was his best grade all year!</p>
<p>robyrm, I am not familiar with lower and middle school programs, but it is certainly not as if those kids who went through them but then didn’t do the diploma were not being educated and that it was somehow a waste, which you seem to imply. I think most schools with IB have another option for a high school diploma if the full IB program itself is not appropriate. As many including yourself have agreed here, it is not for everyone, but I don’t think it tries to be. It is for strong, motivated students who want to challenge themselves with a well-rounded internationally recognized program. As many here and elsewhere will attest, when implemented correctly, it fulfills its mission of producing well-prepared, college-ready thinkers. I doubt that it officially promotes itself as “best for the world” as you say, but if that is stated somewhere, please show us.</p>
<p>Also, The Hague is in The Netherlands, not Belgium.</p>
Who are these mythological zealots? I see mostly people describing their own experiences with IB, and laying out the pros and cons as they’ve experienced them.</p>
<p>To paraphrase Groucho, who are we going to believe, you or our own eyes?</p>
<p>I’m also perplexed by this idea that IB is remedial, and that it’s chosen by bad schools, etc. All I can say is that if IB is remedial, then the typical US public school education is sub-remedial. I think IB and AP are roughly equivalent in quality when well presented, so maybe AP is remedial, too.</p>
<p>I do wonder why the top colleges are taking so many public school grads these days.</p>
<p>Hunt is right. Among the other IB parents on this board, there are at least three of us whose kids attended the same school – one that has taught IB for more than 20 years and, with considerable justification, considers itself one of the best IB schools in the United States. (Among other things, in one recent year, it had the highest IB test scores in the world in HL History.) None of us “endorse the program with unabated zeal.” We all see that it has pros and cons, and we have pointed out those pros and cons on many occasions. We all acknowledge that IB is well suited for some kids and not well suited for others. We all emphasize that how well IB will work out for your child depends on how it is implemented in your school system as well as on how well your child and IB fit together.</p>
<p>Our kids attend(ed) an IB magnet program that ranks with TJ, Stuyvesant, and top private schools in terms of academic prestige. But you won’t find a zealot among us.</p>
<p>Hunt, the Groucho quote is most appropriate and useful. I made the comment about people who have experienced the IB mystique to defend such choice with zeal, based on on … my own eyes. In real life and in this forum in past threads. </p>
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<p>Hunt, please read my comments and check the tenses. What I wrote was:</p>
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<p>In answering the “un-american” stigma, I noted that it would HAVE BEEN better for the opponents of the IB programme to focus on the historical deficiencies of the organization. The creation of the IB program in 1968 was in response to the need of ultra-mobile familes who faced different systems of education. The families of diplomats, international public servants, and foreign executives had few options in the OFFICIAL education system, and had great difficulties to transfer credits from one year to another. This often resulted in children having to attend boarding schools or experiencing delays in graduation. </p>
<p>This created a cottage industry of schools that were outside the official (recognized) education sectors that comprise BOTH public and private schools. It is no accident that the IBO saw its first schools in cities such as Geneva, Brussels, or Luxemburg. Such unofficial schools, however, were not controlled by the education ministries and their main selling tools were that students could “regain” lost ground, hence the remedial component. It took years for the IBO to obtain the recognition of the local education systems. It should be noted that such education and the IB diploma was NOT viewed as a better education and that nobody who could attend a recognized school would have been interested in what was considered an inferior and palliative education. </p>
<p>After decades of a checkered success, the harmonization of the education sector in Europe, and the unexpected success in the United States, helped the IBO to gain a better acceptance and official recognition in several countries, and slowly start to shed its image of providing educational shortcuts to an elitist clientele.</p>
<p>But, unfortunately, the time to scrutinize the IBO has passed. As I wrote earlier, the organization has found a fertile ground in a rudderless public system that has shown a great eagerness and capacity to adopt programs that effectively segregate students according to class, wealth, and race, and this despite its mission of common good. It is NOT surprising that the program finds supporters in well-off districts. And, fwiw, were such programs restricted to schools such as Stanton in Florida, the criticisms would be muffled. The real drama is when such boondoggle of a program is introduced in a school that cannot break 500 on any parts of the SAT and the strong division between the have and have-not is exacerbated. In lower performing schools, most of our resources --including the best teachers-- should be devoted the ones who need it the most. </p>
<p>Our public system of education simply believes that it is easier and better to cuddle the top 10-20 percent.</p>
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<p>I am not sure why the statistics of private versus public schools are particularly relevant in this discussion. There are great schools in both the public and private sector. And also plenty of mediocre ones. The IB program in the US follows the overall distribution with probably well over of 90 percent in public schools. With a 9 to 1 advantage, it should not be surprising that top colleges accept students from public schools. This is a statistic that hardly relevant, and can be manipulated at will. For instance, is 90 percent of students and 50 perfect enrolled in top schools positive or negative? Eye of the beholder!</p>
<p>PS I find the discussion about The Hague, Belgium, and Geneva rather amusing. Yes, The Hague is in the Netherlands, Brussels in Belgium, and Geneva on the shores of Lac Leman. The IBO is, however, mostly directed from the exotic location of Cardiff, Wales. Not that cosmopolitan, eh!</p>
It’s relevant because you helpfully pointed out that private schools (in their majesty) don’t offer IB.</p>
<p>While I don’t believe that the public schools should cuddle (or even coddle) only the top 10%, I do believe that they should provide an appropriate education to everybody–and that may mean programs like IB and AP for more accomplished students, and truly remedial programs for students who need that. I don’t agree with Jay Mathews, who thinks that the secret is to get struggling students to take AP and IB exams.</p>
<p>But hey, if you like private schools, one of the best way to ensure their continued growth and success is to keep public schools from providing challenging curriculum for accomplished students.</p>
<p>Or have many of these lower performing public schools simply given up and decided that failing 80% or 90% of the students (offering AP or IB to the 10% or 20% who show some educational motivation) is better than failing 100% of the students?</p>
<p>Hunt, you are debating a point I did not make. I did not discuss the acceptance rates at top schools from public schools. You did, and that is not relevant here.</p>
<p>In one of my posts, I introduced a DIFFERENT concept, namely that in most cities the historically top high schools have resisted to adopt the IB program. I did not write that private schools do not offer the IB program. Rest assured that I am aware of the list of top schools that offer the IB program – I just named Stanton in Florida as an example. However, if you were living in Dallas, you would know the differences between a highly ranked school (by Newsweek that is) such as North Hills Preparatory in Irving and schools such as St. Mark’s, Hockaday, or Greenhill.</p>
<p>And, fwiw, I am not certain how you elevate my scorn for the “school-within-a-school” model as evidence as my favoring the further development of elite private schools. I am afraid that you are oblivious to my positions on the subject. Here a few hints: I rather have 1,000 Cristo Rey schools than one more Deerfield or Exeter. I rather see a school that strives to graduate 100 percent of all students with basic knowledge of writing, reading, and counting than 5 percent with an IB diploma and 50 percent dropouts. </p>
<p>You’ll need better glue to stick a label of elitism on my chest.</p>
<p>I’m not accusing you of elitism, xiggi. I’m just pointing out that if all you want to do is graduate students with basic knowledge of writing, reading, and counting, then you will provide a nice clientele for the local private schools.</p>
<p>Hunt, while I can see your theoretical point, please consider the reality that faces most elite private schools. While there have been a few majestic (one of your words) failures, the top school enjoy waiting lists and face hordes of over-worried parents. </p>
<p>How many times have we heard about the anxiety of parents of toddlers in “missing the boat?” I have recently heard of 1,500 families jockeying for 30 spots at a Pre-K.</p>
<p>The further reality is that the elite private schools have little to no impact on the direction of the public education, especially in the higher grades. On the other hand, the introduction and further snowballing of programs such as AP and, to a lesser extent, the IB have tremendous impacts on the continuing segregation among students. </p>
<p>A public system of education that so desperately clings to a powerful monopoly cannot afford to mimic the Titanic and have only lifeboats for a chosen few.</p>
<p>My son spent 13 years in an IB program that is now accredited from k-12 by the IBO, [Washington</a> International School: Home](<a href=“http://www.wis.edu%5DWashington”>http://www.wis.edu). I do not think that it is worthwhile to just take two years of IB. That misses the whole point of the program. It is not just about learning stuff, but it is about how you learn. Students who spent as much time in an IB program as my son are marked for life. I believe in a good way. For two years, or even four, just take the APs.</p>
<p>This is the other reason I wanted our son to go to WIS: [Skin</a> Colors, Skin Tones, Race and Color, Melanin, Pictures, Wallpaper – National Geographic](<a href=“Science”>Science)</p>
<p>Not to be picayune, Xiggi, but while the tense indicates the past when referring to the strategy to challenge the program, you use the present to suggest it currently IS a remedial program of poor reputation in Europe. I don’t know enough about its history to challenge whether this was initially the case, but certainly for years IB has been highly regarded across Europe, otherwise its universities would not be accepting the diploma.</p>
<p>“For two years, or even four, just take the APs.” - I disagree. There are many pros/cons to IB. But for my kids that was a good fit… the 4 years (incl 2 years pre-IB), it was an incredible experience.</p>
<p>I do agree that IB is all about the learning. The student speakers at info meetings pointed out that IB credits were just part of the picture (sometimes a full year of credit at state flagship, but sometimes not available at all). What they really enjoyed the challanges and the interesting class discussions. </p>
<p>The IB programs draw many of the top students from the hs. Or in case of district magnet IB hs… from all of the district hs. That can be good and bad, but that’s how it often works.</p>