Parents and the Academy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Thank you USNA69, as the mom of an active duty Corpsman who has been FMF for 12 years [and just returned for a tour in Iraq with the 1/8] I can tell you these young men and women deserve a lot of credit, and honestly, I cannot see a Corpsman "laughing" a midshipman out of a medical clinic. </p>

<p>Corpsman take their duty seriously as shown by the fact that the rating of Hospital Corpsman is the most decorated in the United States Navy with 28 Medals of Honor, 174 Navy Crosses, 31 Distinguished Service Medals, 946 Silver Stars, and 1,582 Bronze Stars.</p>

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<p>I am most positive he didn't.</p>

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I have asked the question before without a satisfactory answer. How can a parent so intent in finding fault, continue to support their son or daughter in their military careers?

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<p>One has nothing to do with the other.
And I am not of the belief that anyone is intent on finding fault, especially parents who turn their flesh and blood over to any military institution.</p>

<p>Asking questions is not finding fault.<br>
It is a quest to understand.
To challenge to improve.
It's just a matter of how you look at things.</p>

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They will come back to the Academy as company officers and perform exactly as the ones there now, the ones who have mismanaged next of kin notification, the ones who have allowed the mids under them to starve, wasting away to nothing, and the ones who allow incompetent medical attention to their charges.

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<p>Hopefully they will come back better, having taken the best from the good, and leaving behind the worst of the bad. Like the wind polishing the pyramids, it is all a "work in progress." </p>

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Navy2010 as a medical professional, you should know that appendicitis is one of if not THE most over/under diagnosed medical condition.

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you are absolutely right. Please re-read the post; it was not a criticism. I was simply putting forth some factors that make it difficult for some parents to "let go" sooner than later.</p>

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Quit being cynical helicopter parents and commence displaying the "I'm a Navy Mom" bumper stickers with pride.

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<p>Not sure these need to be mutually exclusive.<br>
And I wear my USNA mom shirt with lots of pride (too much sometimes!)... right along with my "meddling mom" pin. Hey USNA69- do BGO's get pins???? ;)</p>

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<p>"I think one of the other aspects of this that further complicates the relationship between parents and the Academy relates to perceptions, or perhaps a lack of comprehension about the nature of the Naval Academy, and what it exists to do. There are also postings under other current subjects that illustrate the differences in how those with military service and alumni view subjects in contrast to parents whose primary association with the Academy exists only through their child. "</p>

<p>One of the best things said in this discussion. The problem is that some parents think they are part of the chain of command. Midshipmen are junior officers, not college students. The thing that gets confused is that they are not part of a cool club that has cool march ons and parades. They are members of the United States Military and parents have to be willing to accept this, and that the military does pretty much own their kids. Your midshipmen in a couple of years are going to be the chain of command who is responsible for this. It is sad that some parents get the impression that the chain of command does not care about their kids and it is their responsibility to do that. The chain of command does not have the amount of time or as close of a relationship with your midshipman as you do, but they do care . That is how the military has been functioning since the beginning. </p>

<p>I think the disconnect is the difference between the Naval Academy and the fleet. From my experience if there are problems, my subordinates are not afraid to let the chain of command know and it is taken care of. At the academy there is much less of this. Officers coming from the fleet are used to the chain of command being used like this, and do not expect different when they report as company officers. In the fleet there is not the dynamic of parents like at the academy. There are not parents weekends, football games and so on. Officers in the fleet do not find themselves answering to parents at tailgaters after football games. At the academy the company officers and SEL (and midshipman stripers for that matter) learn more walking around the halls listening to mids complaining in their room or walking to class. I maintain that the way you can help your mid the most is to ensure if they have a problem to work with their chain of command. It will get resolved and they will learn a valuable lesson, since this really is how it works in the fleet. Trust that the chain of command does care about your kids, because they really do.</p>

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<p>hmm...maybe i'm just missing the point, but i know from my own three years experience with brigade medical that their "medical care" is the most ridiculous bunch of apathetic corpsmen and i shudder to think of what would happen if someone went down there with a serious ailment and found only a corpsman on duty....i'm not saying this about ALL corpsmen, but there IS a lack of professionalism and concern that runs rampant throughout brigade medical. i've written it before on this site: corpsmen have told me on multiple occasions to take immodium for a sore throat, tried to argue with me when i requested to see a physician, have turned away mids who later turn out to have cancer, MRSA, blood infections and, yes, meningitis. they suffer from the all-too-common misconception that midshipmen who come down are trying to get out of something, be it class or a parade, and treat us with contempt and disrespect. the only competent person down there aside from the doctors is the civilian who makes appointments. its awful that something like this happened to a fellow mid, but the mom is not at fault here: its the broken system to blame, and i fully agree with the earlier statement that the only doctor i trusted was doc ronan, who turned out to be videotaping his mids taking showers. wonderful. this is the caliber of professionals at brigade medical. no one is calling out the corpsmen, usna69, you don't see anyone complaining about bethesda. its this particular duty station that can't seem to get its act together. they are to blame, not the mother who actually took some action.</p>

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<p>and yes, misdiagnoses ARE common. but seriously, when practically every mid has some horror story, its indicative of some other issue than innocent mistakes.</p>

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<p>You must admit that some of it is mids faults. So many of us went down there there saying we were sick just to get out of class. Yes there was a lack of professionalism that the chain of command in brigade medical should have taken care of but yelling at them like some mids do is not professional either. Somthing that should have been passed up to a level such as battalion officer or something.</p>

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<p>Wheelah, you are missing all the points of this entire thread. Go back and reread rjrzooms very thoughtful post as well as navy07's and grad/dad's insights. It is YOUR Navy. The reason it is in it's present condition as you perceive it is because you are complaining on this forum rather than doing something about it. It is what you have allowed it to become. You are supposed to be in training to be an officer. navy07 understands all that this entails. Heed his advice. Get busy. When you hit the fleet make your charges proud to serve under you.</p>

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It is YOUR Navy. The reason it is in it's present condition as you perceive it is because you are complaining on this forum rather than doing something about it.

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well put..
I had an old Captain tell me "if you allow it to happen to you, you deserve it".</p>

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<p>^^^ hmmm... not really. </p>

<p>This fails the ethical arguement, no matter how you approach it. Welcome to my sandbox! </p>

<p>It can be argued that "you get what you tolerate, therefore you get what you deserve," which is very different from "if you allow....."</p>

<p>You can "tolerate"... and deserve... but you cannot "allow" and deserve.
One decides actively to "tolerate."
One does not always have control over "allowing."
Allowing infers choice, and power over that choice.
Lots of things happen that we do not "allow," where the choice is made for us, not by us. We may not "allow" a behavior- yet are the recepient of it anyway. Once the action is taken, we can actively make a choice to "tolerate" or not... and deserve the consequence.<br>
But an arguement cannot be made that one "deserves" what they "allow" as even the most agregious behavior can be forced upon someone - thus "not allowed"- and most certainly, "not deserved" either. </p>

<p>Understanding fully that I am an outsider, it would appear that it might be time to see if there are opportunities to improve Brigade Medical. Taking the arguement from the other end, the Mids deserve good medical care- and it is certainly in the best intrests of the USNA and COC to have that happen. Therefore, no one should have to tolerate less. They may be forced to allow it- it is, afterall, the only show in town... but that does not mean they deserve it, and they certainly should not have to tolerate it. Understanding the correct route is up the COC, however, perhaps someone can comment as to "what the correct action is" if the COC fails to make the necessary course correction. </p>

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Wheelah, you are missing all the points of this entire thread. Go back and reread rjrzooms very thoughtful post as well as navy07's and grad/dad's insights. It is YOUR Navy. The reason it is in it's present condition as you perceive it is because you are complaining on this forum rather than doing something about it.

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<p>the difficulty with this is that the comment assumes no action has been taken within the COC.</p>

<p>Jadler made a most valid point. The COC is only as good as those in it. If the COC is responsive, it will be utilized. If the COC fails its mission, then another route will be sought. "This is your Navy" is a valid point- but there is a limit on how many times one can bang their head into a wall before realizing that to continue - with the same result- and expecting anything different- is insanity. </p>

<p>There is another saying equally as valid.... "the fish stinks from the head." Us outsiders have no idea of what has been reported up- and down- the COC. I will make the assumption the Mids are smart enough to report what needs to be reported. They can keep bringing the issue to the table over and over and over, but until the head of the fish decides to change direction, it's still gonna stink.</p>

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<p>Like I said, I dont know any officer who would allow their mids/Marines/sailors to lack medical care. You are right, but not many officers slip through the cracks, especially at the higher levels. If there is a problem like this it should be the mid that contacts their congressman.</p>

<p>This could be its own thread but once again I think we can attribute it to the unique culture of the academy. Where technically there is a rank structure, but there is little difference between the influence a 3/c and 1/c have in the brigade. The problem starts there. In reality the academy is a two class system. You are either a plebe or not a plebe. A 3/c is not afraid to stand up to a 1/c and tell them to pound sand. They are completely willing to go straight to a striper above their company chain of command (this happens a lot from personal experience). If their company chain of command does not know then their company officer does not know </p>

<p>In my opinion this would be like a lance cpl telling a Sgt or SNCO to pound sand. It would not happen in the fleet. Sgts still stand up whenever talking to a SNCO out of respect. The respect goes back down as well and the junior Marines trust that the staff NCOs will take care of them. This does not exist at the academy. 3/c think your a "Joe" as a 1/c if you tell them to use their chain of command. </p>

<p>The real reason for this in my opinion is entitlement. From the minute mids enter the academy all they are told is they are the best and brightest. They are made to think they are special simply because they are there. The old tradition of telling plebes at the beginning of plebe summer that the person on the right or left of you will probably not be there is replaced by being told that "I believe all of you can make it, dont worry its not that bad". Its come to dont worry, as long as you really dont mess up you will be comissioned. That is where the attitude comes from that "Im made it through plebe year so I know just as much as the 1/c"</p>

<p>Lets compare the fleet to the academy
1. Promotions: academy- make it through the year, get new shoulderboards. No matter if you are the last person in the class or the first you all get promoted at the same time. Fleet- Many of my Marines missed getting promoted by a few points. If they shot a couple more points on the rifle range they could be a sgt instead of a cpl. Promotions mean something, they are not just given.
2. Training: Fleet- An enlisted Marine fails the rifle range they dont get promoted. They do not pass the PFT no promotion. They get in trouble, no promotion. Fall out of the crucible, the culminating event at boot camp, they dont get their eagle globe and anchor. Academy- When I was on weapons detail we were told that there would be 100% qual on rifle and pistol no matter what. Failing more than half their PRT, not going to stop them from moving onto the next rank. Get conduct offenses and honor offenses, still get promoted at the same time as everybody else. Fall out of sea trials-no big deal, at least you triedc congrats on finishing plebe year.</p>

<p>Am I saying the academy isnt a great place. No, it is a great place where leadership is learned and officers a made. I think entitlement prevents the same use of the chain of command as in the fleet. </p>

<p>Sorry for being so long winded and kind of off topic. It is not the mids fault, it is not the administraitions fault. In my opinion it is just the progression of society in general, where now everybody has to be a winner.</p>

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It can be argued that "you get what you tolerate, therefore you get what you deserve," which is very different from "if you allow....."

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<p>You missed your calling.. You should of been a "sea lawyer"..</p>

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<p>I don't think she missed it at all. The above post demonstrates any and all the traits of an accomplished sea lawyer. If one cannot be relavent, be verbose.</p>

<p>2010, you are missing the entire thread. Go back an reread rjrzoom's post. Throw away those USNA University shirts and get out the 'Navy Mom' bumper stickers. It is more than a school. It is more than a job. A year or so ago, some went so far as to say it is a 'calling'. One doesn't try once and give up. One does continue to 'beat their head against the wall' until things are right.</p>

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<p>Actually I read the post quite carefully.
And I well-appreciate the points made.</p>

<p>The difference, '69, is that rjrzoom "gets" why the perceptions are different-and there is an implied appreciation that parents don't come to an instant understanding of what the academy is all about. What I see as the real issue is that you have zero tolerance for the process.</p>

<p>Parents need time to adjust. My view of the academy back in 2005 is very different than my view of it today. In 2005 I saw 4 years, with an "idea" of what was beyond; with each passing summer I get a broader view of what lies around the next turn. You have been there- I have not. You have the value of your first hand experience, I do not. The problem lies in the fact that you have no appreciation or patience to allow parents to make the adjustments that are necessary. While your insights help us to understand, your impertance serves only to ridicule those that take the interest in your field. Tolerance on your part would not only be appreciated, it would be gracious- and as a BGO, I am going to add "expected."</p>

<p>I do not need a reminder of what the academy is "about." I get it. With time I will gain a better appreciation of what the "Navy" is about. I am not fully there yet. And while it may be a "calling" for some, I would venture to say that at 17 and 18, very few "kids" get it. There is a reason why one can "walk away" before 2C year. The academy recognizes that it takes time to fully engage. I give them a lot of credit. </p>

<p>What I wish you would do is embrace the parents that come into this as novices- you could be a great mentor if you cut the insults, of which there seems to be no end. </p>

<p>Right now to the plebes it is a school- a military school with a lot of rules.
To the majority of parents of a new plebe it is a school- a military school with a lot of rules, a lot of isolation, and a whole host of "unknowns."
Over the course of the summer they will figure out it is school with a significant job attached.
And when they get to their first summer experience out in the fleet they will understand what the job really entails- and they will gain a better appreciation for the mission.
And when they get that, they will understand the significance of what they are doing.
And those that really "get the calling" will stay on past the five and dive.</p>

<p>The academy recognizes all of this- they bring in teachers from the fleet, speakers that can bring the outside experiences to the lecture room, all intended to connect the dots, to make the study relevant and meaningful, to infuse life and meaning into the mission.</p>

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One does continue to 'beat their head against the wall' until things are right.

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<p>No. One figures out early on what can be changed and what can't. And instead of continuing to beat their head against the wall until they are senseless, the smart ones either cut their loses or figure out how to get past the obstacles. </p>

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I don't think she missed it at all. The above post demonstrates any and all the traits of an accomplished sea lawyer. If one cannot be relavent, be verbose.

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<p>Ethical arguements, like still waters, run deep. Based on your comment, it is obvious it is not me that has missed the point. </p>

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One doesn't try once and give up.

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<p>ain't that the truth!</p>

<p>But on this one I am going to yield the last word to you.
Go for it.</p>

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Parents need time to adjust.

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<p>As a parent I would have to agree, to be perfectly honest we’re still adjusting. Our sons are all quite close and with one of our four away they all feel as we do. Something is missing from our life. The point however is that providing an adjustment period for parents is not in any way shape or form, a part of the mission of the United States Naval Academy, nor is it something we should feel entitled to. </p>

<p>I’m glad that as a parent we have the access to our son, from the few short calls during Plebe summer, to the photos that were inconveniently taken, we were pleased and relieved to see and hear from our son throughout the summer and Plebe year. </p>

<p>Consider the irony in the fact that the sailors and marines our sons and daughters will soon command received no such benefits. The Navy has not extended to the parents of those young men and women much of the consideration and access we have received. Any yet our sons and daughters are supposed to be the best and brightest the country has to offer, certainly cable of dealing with and addressing most issues that will confront them during the fours years they live and learn at the Academy without the help of their parents. </p>

<p>Within a year of their graduation the conditions at Brigade Medical or the food at Dahlgren Hall will likely not be on their mind. The chain of command however will be a fundamental part of their life. What lessons did they come away with? Are they going to use the COC or pull out a satellite phone and call home when it hits the fan? </p>

<p>I will acknowledge there may be circumstances in which the Services need a kick in the head or perhaps a sharp stick in the eye to get their attention. We saw that at Walter Reed, we saw the appalling condition in the barracks at Fort Bragg (?)</p>

<p>You cannot however allow your cynicism get the best of you and allow that cynicism to undermine a most fundamental part of military service and organization in the chain of command. This is probably a poor analogy given the state of marriage right now, but to me it’s a bit like cherry picking which vows you’re going to keep and obey. I’m going to follow the COC when it’s easy or produces the results I want, but screw it when it becomes a hassle. Even when it doesn't work as advertised it’s still the glue that keeps it all together. Bottom line is; ready or not our son is in the Navy.</p>

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<p>I wish this last post could be spread to all parents at the academy. I am not a parent and have not expeirenced this yet, but in my opinion allowing them to grow at the academy on their own is the best thing you can do for them becasue as rjzoom said, you will not be with them in the fleet and their CO will not care what the parents have to say.</p>

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<p>Based on a recent discussion with a coach with its becoming very likely that I will be a parent of plebe in 2013. I have followed this thread with interest. But would point out that the parent transition regardless of SA or civilian college is a difficult process. My wife and I were talking about this last night and we both agreed that the USNA is actually a safer place to be than a civilian college. Nevertheless there are things I as a parent am going to have a hard time letting go of they are:
1) Health Issues
2) Adequate diet
3) Poor Academic Performance</p>

<p>I realize the USNA is a very different kind of place, and I believe they are on the same side as me on these issues. But people in the USNA are human and they can miss things. I hope I can learn enough about the COC (new to me) so if I think my kid is really sick and is not getting the care he needs I can prompt him to use the COC to resolve the issue. If the COC is not responsive, I would discuss it with a Chaplin. I would certainly never call a congressman or do something silly like calling the Superintendent. I presume most of these issues arise (if at all) in the plebe year I would expect they are pretty much on their own after that.</p>

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Nevertheless there are things I as a parent am going to have a hard time letting go of they are:
1) Health Issues
2) Adequate diet
3) Poor Academic Performance

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<p>Well, if it's any consolation-based on the past 2 years:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Health Issues- there appears to be a number of concerns regarding brigade medical. Personally, for us it has been a mixed bag- but overall "ok"- not "great," but "adequate." Weekends present a problem- not unlike any other civilian campus. The key is to be persistant (I am speaking of your Mid)- go back if the situation does not improve (at best) or at least stablize. Medical seems to do a great job with sprains and strains and broken bones and trauma-type injuries- it's the other medical issues that seem to cause the difficulty. Again, no better but no worse than what we experienced in the civilian university system. Having Bethesda as a backup for anything serious is a big plus.</p></li>
<li><p>Adequate Diet-with the exception of what I trust will be an isolated "28" days in the course of "our" "4 years by the bay," the meals have otherwise been "reasonably tolerable." Some exceptions for sure, but then again, pleasing everyone at the table is a daunting task- even when I have only 4 of them at it!!! Imagine the challenge of 4000+ three times a day!! The current Master Chief has really worked hard this past year with the Mids (according to the buzz) with some improvements - some much favored items brought back, other new things being tried, and a new rating system that mirrors the one in the fleet (at least that is the message). Fish never seems well received, no matter how it is served- and it usually pops up at least once a week- and on those nights, there is always an opportunity for take-out delivered to zero gate. There is also now a yard card where parents can apply funds to be spent in the Midstore and Dalghren- and now expanded to the uniform shop and other places on the yard. It is my understanding the administration is seeking additional funding for meals which, if approved, should help. </p></li>
<li><p>Poor Academic Performance. The worry need only be applied to your mid, and how much help they are seeking. The academy does a fantastic A+ job in the education offered, the extra instruction available, and in monitoring performance- and they monitor ad nauseum from every level of the COC. So no worries on this issue from the academy side of things- this one sits squarely on the Mids themselves.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I fully agree that parents need to stay in the background on these issues-unless there is an urgent and immediate risk to life. But even then, the MOC would be the last person to call. The USNA posts numbers to Bancroft, and in the case of emergency, one can get a message up the COC pretty quickly from the outside. The chaplins are another terrific resource if parental concerns arise that cannot be addressed directly with your Mid- and they are one huge asset for the Brigade. HUGE.</p>

<p>To tell you the truth, none of those reasons should be a deal-breaker. What tends to get reported are the isolated "extremes," - which in light of all the really great things that go on, is really a shame. There are some new people at the academy that, by all appearances, have been working hard to resolve some of the issues brought forth. In that regard, the Master Chief has been great, and there is a new Dant that, from what I have "heard," is an effective communicator and at first glance, seems to be able to relate to the Brigade a bit better. The pendulum was at one extreme, then it swung to the other- it would be nice to see it settle down a bit in the middle, but it is not "our" call. We get to watch, support, and sometimes dust them off a bit.... but even that gets less and less with each passing year, as it should be.</p>

<p>Best of luck! I am still of the belief that it is an opportunity of a lifetime!!!</p>

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<p>I think if you go back and look at the history of my posts, you will note that I have a great deal of both “tolerance” for the process and patience. What I have no tolerance for is parents who refuse to face facts, continuing down their own path of misconceived incorrect ideas, no matter the facts presented by those who understand the process. I think basically exactly everything I posted in relation to the food non-issue has proved to be correct. For various reasons, which I have no intent of rehashing again, parents feeding unfounded rumors was the main culprit in the entire fiasco. There was a food shortage for one single meal. Only one. Secondly, the CACO death notification was explained thoroughly both when it happened and by grad/dad and myself in this very thread. You will, however, continue to note both of these instances as an administration failure as long as you are a member of this forum. Of this, I am most positive. </p>

<p>On this particular thread, four graduates and a couple of other parents propose both reasons for the medical occurrence and proposed solutions. Rather than embrace this collective several lifetimes of knowledge, you go off on some totally irrelevant argument concerning some perceived ethical difference between “allow”, “deserve”, and “tolerate” and then attempt to portray us as ethical morons for not acknowledging your comments. Guess what? Who the heck cares? We knew exactly what the Captain meant by his comment and saw its relevance to the argument. We chose not to get caught up in some obtuse hypothetical semantics discussion. It didn’t matter. You may claim forever that you are only attempting to learn. However, your actions prove otherwise. Of this, I have no tolerance. Therefore, until you open your mind and cease your hidden agenda, please do not lecture me on what you “expect” from a BGO. The very fact that most of my posts were merely in agreement with other parents disproves your 'zero tolerance for parents' accusation. </p>

<p>I have discovered throughout my lifetime that if someone discredits the Navy, my immediate rebuttal, once all the facts are presented, in 99% of the situations, proves correct Competent people doing the best they can with the resources available, do not make the mistakes which you think are common to the institution. This type of support would also be what I would expect from someone who would be proud to display the "Navy Mom" bumper sticker.</p>

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<p>Interesting how people live in the myth of their own reality.</p>

<p>Ever heard of the total perspective vortex?</p>