Parents engineering their kid's community service

Parents Forum
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<p>There have been several instances highlighted recently in our local/ regional newspapers in which parents have apparently organized and launched philanthropic efforts for their high school children (usually juniors!) to "run." When you read the articles about these charity events, it's pretty clear that the parent was the real force behind the endeavor, and that the adult/s did the lion's share of the work. Yet the experienced cynic in you just knows that the kid will be painting this as his own initiative on those college applications. It's the EC equivalent of dad designing the kid's science project for him, or mom writing the kid's book report. Only now it's mom or dad organizing a benefit concert to raise awareness about Darfur.</p>

<p>Anyone else seeing this?</p>

2

<p>Who can forget the Blair Hornstine fiasco from a few years back!</p>

<p>We haven't seen this at our locality, although I have seen dads who seem much more the driving force behind their son's Eagle Project than the actual scout is.</p>

3

<p>I can't fault parents too much for pushing kids into community service. You
have to admit, community service can be a bit of an acquired taste. It's
good for all of us if this taste for contributing is developed while
we are young.</p>

<p>Sometimes the parent needs to be the driving force at the start. After all,
my chemistry teacher was the driving force behind me learning chemistry.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I am having trouble getting my mind around encouraging
the child to lie about his actual involvment.</p>

4

<p>If you are getting your info from reading local and regional papers, how in the world do you know what the parental involvement is. Are you claimining that the trip to Asia by mini's daughter was planned and orchestrated by mini?</p>

5

<p>I believe what GFG is talking about is a huge "program". I've seen these- usually one or two a year at our hs. It's usually a big drive to raise money or collect materials for a certain organization, or build a program for the disadvantaged, which invariably employs the knowhow, skills, and resources of lawyers, businesspeople, and educators. And usually is accompanied by impressive dollar amounts (in the 10's of thousands). </p>

<p>We're not talking a book drive for the local children's home or collecting tabs for Ronald McDonald House.</p>

<p>Honestly, I don't abide by it, at least for my own. They developed more <em>leadership skills</em> from umpiring Little League and holding down part time jobs than they could have ever if I had helped them pull off a big CS project in the model of above.</p>

<p>Edit: I think the question you would have to ask (or rather, the question I ask) is, would my kid be able to do this next year when he is at college, with or without help. The HELP isn't the issue per se, because obviously we all need the resources of other people to accomplish goals, but rather, does the child have the motivation, creativity, wherewithall to seek out appropriate assistance, interact with these people on their own, be responsible for carrying it through without handholding...</p>

<p>The glories of CS awards and scholarships notwithstanding, my major concern with my sons was that they develop the independence and confidence to be successful IN COLLEGE. To some degree, age appropriateness becomes an issue as well. If a project is so <em>big</em> and sophisticated that he cannot even begin to fathom repeating it on his own, even having had the experience of going through it once already, it's not appropriate. And from what I've seen of <em>some</em> of these projects, there is NO WAY that child would be able to reproduce even half of what the project entails, with or without help, on his own.</p>

6

<p>It's usually a big drive to raise money or collect materials for a certain organization,</p>

<p>Oh yeah Ive seen this
LOtta times people at work are selling their kids GirlScout cookies or CampFire mints or that expensive wrapping paper.
Whats worse then when it comes time pick their prize for selling 800 boxes of cookies- the parents allow the child to "claim" that the "kid" sold the cookies and they get a better prize
:o
But she doesn't want the stuffed turtle anymore, any takers?</p>

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<p>oh, get a grip. In my neighorhood it's hard to get teenagers to take the Ipod out of their ears long enough to LISTEN to parents, let alone take direction from them on something monumental and service oriented. If a parent can manipulate a kid to participate in developing a microfinance business plan for a village in Guatemala, it seems like win/win to me, especially for the villagers. So the 17 year old in question lacks the sophistication to network with the World Bank on his own? Who is fooled by this?</p>

<p>More good deeds are better than fewer.... so I can't get too bent out of shape over this. And it's unfair to compare your typical HS kid to the typical college kid.... colleges with well developed community service programs (I'm thinking of Harvard) have an infrastructure in place which rivals that of the Red Cross or United Way in your typical community. Kids in college have access to resources for community service which are astonishing-- complete with professors who can pick up the phone and get a Senator or head of an NGO on the line.</p>

8

<p>Way back when my girl scout leader pressured all of us to organize a huge clean up of the C&O Canal. We made the phone calls, but she was telling us who to call and how to organize the logistics of it all. We ended up inviting a Supreme Court Justice to pick up the first bag of garbage, we got all the troops in the DC area involved, we got tons of publicity. We definitely had help from adults around us. I know it was the topic of my college essay and I suspect for many of my fellow Scouts. It was a wonderful learning experience for all of us and was part of a life long habit of volunteering. I trust colleges can see through the smoke and mirrors and guess just how much help kids had in these sorts of projects. I think they are still worth doing and that most kids learn a lot from them.</p>

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<p>I think it's wonderful for kids to work on community projects, big and small. I have friends who are occupational therapists and their kids help them; I have friends who work in the Red Cross and their kids help them...</p>

<p>The only ethical issue I see is when someone makes it sound as though they were in charge of something, had a leadership role, were the <em>manager</em> so to speak, when they weren't. </p>

<p>You wouldn't claim to have been a project leader of manager on your resume if you weren't. If you were in a support or staff role, you'd communicate that, accurately and honestly. It's ethical to describe your role, and by all means, blow your own horn, but do not claim to have been more than you really were.</p>

<p>College apps and resumes are the first exposure our kids have to this sort of thing. Putting something down that is a gross exaggeration of the actual specifics or worse yet is inaccurate, is not a good lesson for them to be learning this early in life. I would not allow my son to claim to have taken a leadership role in any project where he was actually in a support capacity.</p>

10

<p>You know it comes back to a statement I made to my players when I coached a youth soccer team.... </p>

<p>"It's about what WE do, not the other team."</p>

<p>It would pay for some here to remember that simple idea...</p>

11

<p>Opie,
I understand what you're saying, and I try to remind myself of the "if you can't say anything nice...." adage. </p>

<p>But I am confused about this, because I've seen this before on CC and I can't figure out if there's more going on "behind the scenes" or something...</p>

<p>Frequently threads are started which in one form or another is a criticism of something or someone. Or eventually segues into a critical analysis of something or someone. And these threads can go on for pages and pages and no one seems bothered.</p>

<p>Then one day a thread is started and the response is largely, "mind your own business," "live and let live," "what's your problem buddy?", "get a grip," etc.</p>

<p>Is there more going on here than meets the eye?</p>

<p>Under ordinary circumstances, I'd not be bothered in the least by what other people do. But it has gotten to the point where scholarships, awards, honors, selections, are decided by these types of things. And if people aren't being honest, isn't it sort of like playing another team that is cheating? Wouldn't you, as a coach, call another team on it if your kids lost a game because the other team was cheating?</p>

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<p>"Yet the experienced cynic in you just knows that the kid will be painting this as his own initiative on those college applications."</p>

<p>I guess this line in the original post just struck me as gossip. The OP
isn't sure these kids lied, their inner cynic just knows it. How?</p>

<p>If you want to know how the CC community feels about lying on
your resume, check out the very long thread on Marilee Jones getting
caught at it. Many people were upset, but some were supportive.
It's very interesting.</p>

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<p>"And if people aren't being honest, isn't it sort of like playing another team that is cheating? Wouldn't you, as a coach, call another team on it if your kids lost a game because the other team was cheating?"</p>

<p>Not really, no. It serves no purpose. I admit that's a hard lesson to learn, that people would not rather be bothered with information like that as it makes them "have" to deal with it "maybe". I learned it the hard way. </p>

<p>More importantly, you have to watch that what the "other" guy did doesn't become an excuse for your situation or reduces your efforts to a .. "why bother?" </p>

<p>Stuff tends to come out in the wash... </p>

<p>One year in canadain tournament we played a team of 18 year olds in our 14 year old bracket (their coach talked the tournament director into it). They won the tournament. In their bracket, two teams abandoned their matches at half rather than get beat up more by these jerks from Seattle. </p>

<p>In ours, for the first half they beat on us, we lost one player to a shoulder separation and they stood over him and laughed. Instead of folding up, I just told them at half, how we control what happens to us through our efforts.. second half we beat on them, quite a bit.:) Still enjoy watching my young guys square things up. Bullies do cry. </p>

<p>The 18 year olds were complaining how rough the 13 years olds were. They went from laughing at us first half, to whining about how physical we were. We lost the game (3-1, 3nil at half) but we won our self respect back. We couldn't control that they were there, we could control how we decided to deal with their verbal abuse and rough play. </p>

<p>Quiting or complaining wouldn't have helped us as much as deciding if we were going to lose, we were going to lose doing our best. I tell you, there's nothing like looking into an 8th graders eyes after he's made a HS senior cry after a hard challenge. It became our reoccurring theme "do our best, win or lose." We experienced an excellent season. Character developes from adversity, not success.</p>

<p>"But it has gotten to the point where scholarships, awards, honors, selections, are decided by these types of things." </p>

<p>Yup, There's a science mom for every soccer mom out there. We've experienced both. I still feel the best way to deal is to be the best person you can be, regardless of the outcome. Gawd those "types" hate that.</p>

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<p>I don't know about the OPs proof or lack of proof. I do know of situations in my sons' peer groups where everyone has been shocked to hear that "Johnny spearheaded a major fundraising effort for XYZ which raised over $70K" or some such stuff, and everyone knows that Johnny was really along for the ride. And Johnny ends up winning the chamber of commerce student of the universe award, or some corporate scholarship award, based on that. Kids have a way of knowing, just like we know in our own work environments who <em>really</em> was in charge, who really did the lion's share of the work.</p>

<p>I do know why this bothers me so much. It's the only area of a student resume where there are absolutely no checks and balances to telling the truth. </p>

<p>A kid can't lie about his grades, his scores, his ERA, his batting average, his 5 minute mile...</p>

<p>A kid can't lie about whether he was employed by the local grocer, whether he did 100 community service hours (if it was documented through his GC office), whether he went to Boy's State, or played first chair violin...</p>

<p>He can't lie about whether he was on Honor Council, NHS, or Mu Alpha Theta. </p>

<p>All those things can be documented.</p>

<p>But right now, if I had the time, the money, and the inclination, I could concoct a very impressive event and attribute the planning and execution to my kid, and he could in turn use that experience to win scholarships and, potentially, admission to certain colleges. And in the meantime, <em>someone else</em> didn't win the scholarship or get admitted.</p>

<p>To me, it's sort of like selecting the "All Star" team for Little League, and some of the players' coaches have boosted their stats erroneously and therefore they 'make' the team ahead of others. It hurts the kids who didn't make the team, it hurts the team (because the best kids aren't on the team anymore), and it hurts the integrity of the entire league.</p>

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<p>A friend's daughter started a group at her elite private school to refurbish old computers and donate them to people who needed them. Two years later, her dad showed up at our house and took home a car full of our dead and dying older computers (DH never throws anything out)... to the casual observer, it might look like dad was doing the work, but I know for sure his daughter does all the work herself. Don't make assumptions! Some kids really are that motivated.</p>

<p>And doubleplay, kids can and do lie about their grades, all the time. It's called cheating... when they didn't write the paper or do the research. And some of the kids who win the Intel prizes get those great opportunities through their parents.... Life ain't fair, and expecting it to be will make you miserable.</p>

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<p>The only consolation I see, for dealing with the cheater types, is that they do eventually get their come-uppance. </p>

<p>I have seen kids whose parents have done half their homework in high school, finagled this and that, engineered this and that. Unless the parents are packed in the suitcase for college, it is very difficult for kids to rely (or over-rely) on that level of parental support in college. It becomes sink or swim. </p>

<p>Obviously, if the cheating is "only" the case of lying about community service, it may not come back to bite...but these things typically do, one way or another.</p>

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<p>I am <em>not</em> assuming that every student is lying. I'm thinking specifically of cases where you know the person, or your kid knows the person, and you know they really did not spearhead a project. Sort of like the same type of stuff that happens in a cutthroat work environment- people taking credit or assigning blame. Like I said, it doesn't just hurt the person who did it, or the victims of their deceptions- it hurts the credibility and integrity of the entire institution as well. Especially those students who DO incredible things, that are either A) not believed, or B) shoved under the carpet by some poseur who has <em>done</em> a more "glamorous" project. </p>

<p>And I'm not miserable, nor do I lose sleep on it (mine are already in college, we're done with all that, thank goodness). I was merely responding to the OP. </p>

<p>Fortunately my kids, who played sports all their life, had coaches who would go to "bat" for them. I guess baseball maybe different than other sports. ANY time there is any question of "safe" or "not safe", "strike" or "ball", illegal substitutions, out-of-order batting...the coach will come out onto the field and have a pow wow with the umps. Same thing for institutional issues like illegal recruiting, out-of-area players, players who are too old. I can't imagine a situation where a coach would shrug and tell the players, "OK guys, I know they didn't follow the rules, but hey, let's all be good sports. It'll catch up with them eventually."</p>

<p>Man, our varsity coach would be fired if he did that.</p>

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<p>I understand why this would bother some posters, and it certainly does seem a valid issue to discuss.</p>

<p>However, I have a slightly different point of view. As long as the kid is actually doing some work, okay a significant amount of work, I don't mind if parent organizes and does "executive" function because college admissions aren't a level playing field. With legacies and children of donors getting a big boost, I don't think the process is "fair" in any way. The neighboring school district has a coach hired just for Intel competition. Ours does not. They have several Intel semi-finalists each year; we do not. I've never worried about this being unfair because if my kids had wanted this enough, they could have made it happen, even without coach.</p>

<p>I take mathmom's point that kids don't always have requisite skills to function without supervision, even when desire is present. I see it as modeling behavior.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if the parent does all the work, i.e. sells the girl scout cookies, that is just lying. In that case, I feel really sorry for the child who has parents with horrible values.</p>

<p>This is why I am happy that urm's and disadvantaged kids get a boost from adcoms because in most (not all, of course) cases these kids needs to be very self motivated and their test scores etc. may not match their suburban or privately educated peers.</p>

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<p>If an high school student is organized and motivated and excited enough about a big project to bring it to fruition themselves it will come out in essays and interviews. They are amazing young adults, and it shines through in all their work, not just their charity work.</p>

<p>The science mom mention above made me smile. In my daughter's 6th grade science fair they had a panel of judges interview the each student to see if they understood their project. It seems that quite a few of them had no idea how it worked. At least one did absolutely nothing on the project, and it showed. And the project that won the contest wasn't one of those amazing, model of a nuclear reaction type projects. It was something that really wasn't even that scientific, but it was obvious the student did it all by herself.</p>

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<p>UCDalum82,
My son won a ribbon (not first place) for science fair one year by clocking his pitches after warming up with a regular ball or a weighted "penny" ball. (Mr. "I am my own guinea pig".) Another year for collecting dust on little pieces of vaselined plastic throughout our house (are carpeted rooms dustier than uncarpeted rooms???). :) Oh, those were the days!!!</p>