<p>anovice, I agree with much of the advice that you've received here (and I grew up taking care of myself for the most part as well so I can understand some of your situation there as well). I am surprised that no one has brought this up though: Why don't you start looking for outside scholarships? If you can bridge the gap substancially then it would be more difficult for your parents to argue with your choice. Plus, you mentioned that you won't have enough time for a job during school (you might be surprised), and if you can get enough outside financial aid you might not have to worry about that.</p>
<p>Anovice... I agree with the advice you've been given to wait until you've got all the cards on the table before getting too emotional about your situation. Once you've got the admissions and financial facts in front of you, it's time to make some decisions.</p>
<p>However... maybe you could try a little role-playing with your sister? Try one scenario where your parents are right (for a change! i know it's hard.) Maybe they've worked hard and struggled to get where they are (comfortable financially) precisely because they started out burdened with loans and don't want to see you repeat that. Maybe they see the most valuable thing they can give you is the knowledge that you won't be supporting them in their old age, hence their need to hang on to their nest-egg and not spend it on Northeastern or Miami. Perhaps they view the opportunities at a large, well-regarded university like MD or Delaware as better in engineering than at a small private-- paradoxical perhaps, but a place like Embry-Riddle derives an infinitesmal part of its budget from engineering research, whereas at a large public it's substantial... so professors are more engaged, more likely to employ students on projects, etc.</p>
<p>My kids usually assume that I'm wrong or motivated by (pick one) stupidity, ignorance, or just being uncaring. In fact, I disagree with them frequently, but usually because I'm middle- aged, have been supporting myself (and them) for decades, and have learned a few things about Real Life along the way.</p>
<p>There's always ROTC, especially for a talented female future engineer.....</p>
<p>You need to involved your parents in your educational plans if you expect them to contribute financially. "Anywhere you want," may mean something vastly different to your parents than to you. They may be thinking, "If my child is accepted into the premier state university in my state, it will be an accomplishment." Meanwhile, you are thinking private, out-of-state colleges. There is a significant difference in costs. You truly need to have an open discussion with them - and carefully consider their input if you expect them to pay.</p>
<p>Have you considered co-op programs as a means to pay a portion of your tuition? Some of the schools on your list offer that program. Co-oping will allow you to cover a substantial portion of your college costs and obtain valuable experience. BTW, don't assume that engineering majors can't work while at school. Beginning with my sophomore year, I always had a job. During my senior year, I held down four part-time jobs. Yes, I was busy, but it was quite manageable.</p>
<p>Thank you all for taking the time to write out such thoughtful responses...</p>
<p>I'll address some issues...</p>
<p>-outside scholarships. I've applied to many and will most likely win this $10K one and maybe a few smaller awards but in all honest that just a drop in the ocean of all my college expenses. </p>
<p>-parents experiences. Both my parents had their college educations fully funded by thier parents. My father went right up through his doctorate and my mom only got her bachelors. My mom believes that it is her duty to pay for her kids education(like her parents paid for hers) but my parents agree that they don't need to spend the amounts I'm looking at. They both went to public schools and have done very well for themselves... they believe I should be able to do the same. </p>
<p>Its really hard to understand their logic though. Yesterday we were driving by this car dealership and there was a little Audi convertible. My dad says "Hey, if you decide to go to UMD maybe we'll be able to hook you up with one of those!" Ummm.... its obviously not about money! I think that they are trying very hard to steer me in what they think is the best decision financially and educationally but I guess I just don't see it yet.</p>
<p>The other parents are about to go nuts, and not believe I'm saying this, but - I would be tempted to stick them for the Audi and go to UMD.</p>
<p>I think you need to consider a couple of things - probably the most important is how set are you on engineering? I know Lehigh has a respected engineering program, but is it truly better than UMD? You need some hard data to back that up - are the math classes smaller? How many students get the PE? Do both schools follow the guidelines for engineering curricula? If you are not so set on engineering, how will Lehigh be a better choice.
As others have said, you need to visit UMD, and your parents need to visit Lehigh/Lafayette - if my child was interested in engineering, and wasn't MIT bound, I would push state schools very hard, and would need good reasons to advocate for my kid to go elsewhere - specific programs, combination of business and engineering, co-op. You should also consider if you have to pay for it yourself, then spending only a year or at the expensive school and transferring to UMD - will classes transfer? Will you still be considered in-state?</p>
<p>This is slightly tangential, and not a direct response, but does anyone have any idea how many "entering" engineers-to-be don't end up in engineering? I know that for pre-meds, it is extremely high, but I have no idea about engineers.</p>
<p>It is extremely high... I believe much high then pre-meds even.</p>
<p>... but this really isn't a concern as, with the exception of Embry Riddle, all of the schools I'm interested in have a wide variety of majors.</p>
<p>I don't know much about engineering. I know that the idea at Smith's engineering program is to require every student to have a huge liberal arts component (like 50% of courses), with the goal that students will aspire not to become engineers, but engineering managers (only about 10% of engineers are women, but, or so they say, the number of women engineering project managers is less than a third of that.) So maybe that's an argument you can use. (Sounds like a good theory - I have no idea how true it will hold up in practice, and I'm sure the school doesn't know either, as the program is too new.)</p>
<p>Before the car episode I thought there was a good chance it was just about money for your parents. Many kids think their parents have a lot more money than they really do. The live in a nice home and drive nice cars which must mean they're loaded. They have no clue about mortgages and other debt.</p>
<p>However, the car episode seems to say that it's not about the money but rather about their values being imposed on you. Don't get me wrong, they are not obligated to pay a penny if they don't want to, but you are entitled to adopt your own values. If you value small classes and more intimacy than a State school offers, you need to make sacrifices to get where you want to be and you need to ask your parents to support your values.</p>
<p>I would use the car as an opening. Tell them you would be happy to live without a car for the opportunity to go to a private school and that you hope they'll support you but putting that money into your dream school. That you'll pick up jobs whenever you can. Show them how much it means to you and that it's worth a sacrifice on all parts.</p>
<p>perhaps the cost of the car is the difference between public and private costs in one year, whereas if anovice attended private school it could cost 4 cars by graduation- so one car would seem attractive to mum & dad!</p>
<p>Well the little Audi would be the difference for 2 years. If they're willing to do that......It's interesting, a friend was telling me that there are parents who are in competition with their kids. They're afraid their kids will move past them so rely on the what was good enough for me mentality. It's hard to believe, but I suppose it's possible.</p>
<p>zagat - I like several of your points, but: re the parents who are afraid their kids will move past them. Though definitely not one of them, nor a child of them, I have heard it cast not as "in competition with their kids," but as a fear that their kids are rejecting them and/or finding them wanting.</p>
<p>Anovice, I wish you well in the outcome. There has been much great advice here. I will only second the notion that UMd Honors could serve you well, so if that is to be it, please go with an open mind and heart. Personally, I would like to see you be able to go to your Lehigh/Lafayette/Smith choice. Lehigh does have a coop program in Engineering, which is very strong, I believe and for which the coop jobs pay well. It does take only 4 years, not 5 (I think) but you do go to school one of the summers.</p>
<p>Aside: that qx re % of entering engineer majors who switch out intrigues me. S is about to be one, altho H,S and I all agreed on the importance of choosing a school which would appeal and be strong in other fields, should he change. </p>
<p>I'm about to google this issue, but does anyone know of a source?</p>
<p>Anovice: I remember your posts last year about whether to go for engineering or engineering management, or something else entirely. From more recent posts I gather that you are aiming more for engineering than engineering management. So the questions are two:</p>
<p>Plan A: backing up Cangel's points - you need to consider both the education you will be getting and the impression that your education will make, at least initially. So, in line with other posts, you need to be able to state your case to your parents on why you feel certain schools are preferable to you over others.</p>
<p>BTW, in terms of image, among your three top schools, an engineering degree from Lehigh carries the most weight. Lehigh has a tradition of being a fine engineering school. However, be sure that its campus, atmosphere and location will suit you. Otherwise you can graduate as a well-trained, well-educated, miserable engineer. Lafayette is looked on as a good overall school; one of my cousins' kids went there for engineering and is now doing quite nicely based on his education and his summer jobs experience. Smith has a fine name as a school, but you ought to check its reputaton for engineering with people in the profession - i.e., the ones who will be looking to hire you. An engineering degree from Smith may raise qustion marks in job interviews, since Smith is (or at least used to be) viewed as mainly a liberal arts achool.</p>
<p>State schools likewise can have very good reputations - and the honors programs even more so. Sure, MD is a large school; however your concern is whether the classes will be large. The answer is yes-during the first year, but less so afterwards. So class size should not be such a big deal overall. If you're an interested student, your professors will know you quickly enough. And if you're in the honors program, you're already in a situation that will keep you from becoming lost in the crowd.</p>
<p>Plan B: as you suggest, you also need to look at the suitability of the school in other fields, in case you decide that engineering is not for you. Happens to a lot of people and is not a black mark against you. There MD probably has an edge, especially if you can stay in the honors program. Check the other good majors at Lehigh and Lafayette.</p>
<p>It may be that nothing will convince your parents, but you won't know until you've made a good-faith effort to try, with the necessary ammunition.</p>
<p>Good luck, either way.</p>
<p>So, when you are computing the worth of the audi in terms of the delta between public and private schools... be sure to factor in the insurance and interest (if not purchased for cash).</p>
<p>I am impressed that you are open to viewing all sides of this struggle. It sounds like you have been getting mixed messages from your folks for a long time. How has this worked out in the past? If you discussed a topic in which your opinions differed, what happened? If they relented, did you pay for it in the end? Was the old issue dredged back up in future discussions? If you were truly passionate about something, did that make a difference?? </p>
<p>As a parent, I try to balance practical with emotional. We've never been flashy, don't have lots of "bling" but are not struggling either. My kids were never the "gotta have the best and most expensive of everything" type kids, and it sounds like you aren't either. As such, it doesn't sound like you are wanting a LAC just for the "status". It sounds like you've looked at the plusses and minuses of large vs small schools, and, if given the opportunity, would prefer the smaller, so as not to get lost or swallowed up in the larger schools. This doesn't seem unreasonable, especially if the $$ isn't really the issue. </p>
<p>Perhaps it might be helpful to reframe things for your folks. To be delicate, I really see your choices as smaller LAC/smaller university vs larger State school. I'm not sure it is helpful or appropriate to use the word "elitist". I'd try to get that word outa there. It doesn't sound like you made these choices blind-- you did your homework. </p>
<p>My first reaction to the Audi story (after I saw the mixed messages again) was-- let them buy you the car, then sell it and put the $$ to your education! If all costs were equal, would they still have the same attitude toward the smaller schools?? If so, then clearly it isn't about $$ at all. And it isn't really fair for them to impose their value system on you. Your choices aren't about being "flashy". At least, it doesn't sound that way to me.</p>
<p>I would also suggest that you look at what job opportunities they might offer on campus. My s considered signing up as the manager for the girls swim team (a Div 1 team), as it offered a 40% tuition reduction. It sounded interesting, but was really a HUGE time committment, which we didn't think was wise for a freshman. Plus, if you've read some of the other threads on the parents cafe, you'll note that my s. isn't exactly a morning person, and having to be at 5:30 am practices would have been impossible. But, I am glad he looked at job opportunities. Some of the technical/computer jobs that he could easily do pay $8-10/hr. That can add up. If work/study is an option, you should look into it at the schools you are desiring, and present your folks with the facts, and a proposal. Perhaps if they see that you are also thinking about being practical, maybe they'll listen a bit. Good luck. Keep us posted.</p>
<p>Just wanted to say thanks for all the responses! </p>
<p>I don't have time to respond to them right now, but will soon.</p>
<p>Anyone else think that a new Audi is a whopping display of <em>bling bling</em> for an 18 year old? </p>
<p>Anovice, that kind of comment sounds very elitist to someone who wouldn't dream of buying their son such a flashy-hey-look-at me-the rich-kid car--but happily pays out $45k a year for univeristy costs. </p>
<p>This ain't about the money or 'elitism'....this is about irrational fear; the fear that you might supercede them....That's my guess.</p>
<p>Boy, I must be missing something. Nothing would make me HAPPIER than for my kids to supercede me. Then they can take care of me in my old age:) In fact, my older s. wrote, when he was 9, that he swears to take care of us in our old age. It is posted by the computer station-- dated 4-23-96</p>
<p>just a thought - maybe the parents don't want her to go out of state to school and want her staying close to home for their needs?? </p>
<p>My son is a freshman engineering student at Lehigh and is thoroughly enjoying it. He was accepted to other schools, both in-state and out but felt that education-wise, Lehigh would be his best choice. He is busy with classes but also has time for a work job too - working in the Materials Science department, learning while earning money. Anovice, do what YOU feel is right. You've gotten where you're at today making wise decisions, don't start doubting yourself now.</p>
<p>Good luck</p>