<p>Someone up stream asked about APs and placements into Calc I, II, etc. I don’t have personal experience with that, as my kid didn’t take any APs. I did observe her classmates working very hard on AP Psych, which struck me as odd given how easy college into Psych is (obviously not equivalent classes, IMO).</p>
<p>As for math, I have followed this subject for a while on this forum, and I guess my conclusion is that one should go with the recommendation of the college, as they should best know what works at their school. My neighbor started algebra in 7th grade and took HS Calc B/C, and no doubt did well on the AP test, but UIUC told her to take Calc II - which means that 2 years acceleration in HS netted her a semester of college math placement (!). I’ll have to find out how well that went for her.</p>
<p>It seems a bit of a shame that acceleration is the main goal. I took an entire semester of Analytic Geometry in HS, and also took far more probability/stats in ‘precalc’ or College Algebra than my kid has been exposed to to date. Geometry was a richer subject in my olden day too - far more constructions, etc. If all this acceleration nets only a semester or two of placement, it seems a bit of a waste to me. And if it produces kids who really don’t have good algebra/precalc foundations, then it’s just plain stupid. Again, this varies hugely from HS to HS and you can find on CC anecdotes of all kinds - it worked out well, it didn’t, etc.</p>
<p>One more comment before I quiet down I now realize that there are plenty of tech kids who have taken AP science in HS and will never take a lab science at a university. Seems a shame, as I just can not believe that AP science is as rigorous, in general, averaged over all HSs, as a lab science at a good U.</p>
<p>Re APs and placements – my kiddo finished BC Calc as a high school junior and with a 5 on the exam. As senior took AP stats (5) and a course on chaos theory at local college. Arrives at college in the fall and is told cannot accelerate and found last semester terribly boring. Now that he knows the lay of the land there will be petitioning to move ahead where will find challenge. He will also find challenge in the range of non-math oriented requirements!
Likely to major in math/physics but really doesn’t want to be engineer despite his father’s dearest wish (or perhaps because of…!) so not sure what he’ll do with all this.
Best to OP and son.</p>
<p>From what I have seen, students who enter intro courses in science and math at more selective schools do best if they have already seen some or most of the material in high school. High school acceleration might not lead to skipping intro classes, but makes it much more likely that students will get the grades they need to stay in a pre-med or engineering track. </p>
<p>Also, I am hearing that Intro to Psych has become a “weeder” at some of these schools.</p>
<p>Students who need to learn most or all of the material covered in these courses from scratch might do much better in a small setting, where they can ask questions as soon as they arise, get answers from the professor and not a random teaching assistant, and receive prompt corrections on homework and exams that are graded individually by hand.</p>
<p>By two years of acceleration, do you mean that she completed calculus BC as a high school junior but did not take any math as a high school senior (which would leave her only one year ahead at high school graduation)?</p>
<p>UIUC’s math course descriptions are here:
[Course</a> Information Suite, Course Catalog, Class Schedule, Programs of Study, General Education Requirements, GenEd](<a href=“Course Explorer”>Course Explorer)</p>
<p>Summary of calculus BC placement at UIUC:</p>
<p>1, 2, or 3: Math 220 or 221 (calculus 1)
3 with AB subscore of 4 or 5: Math 231 (calculus 2)
4: Math 241 (calculus 3); Math 231 (calculus 2) for engineering majors
5: Math 241 (calculus 3)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unless an honors or theory/proof oriented freshman calculus course is available (or required as in the case of schools like Caltech or Harvey Mudd), it is likely a waste for a student with a score of 5 on BC to repeat freshman calculus. What school was this?</p>
<p>Thanks Treetopleaf, you have knowledgeable posts, so I was hoping you could give me another perspectve. Exactly my thought so I guess it depends on the college??? Some colleges offer credit but not the entire class, probably for this reason. Would welcome others input on there experiences in this area.</p>
<p>My son could gain a whole semester by utilizing his AP’s but I don’t want him to fall behind before he truly begins. Not a good start!</p>
<p>It is generally the case that they are not as readily accepted as for AP calculus or English literature. For example:</p>
<p>Biology: may be accepted for a year of general biology, but not by many medical schools, and many of the students who would take general biology in college are pre-meds.</p>
<p>Chemistry: may be accepted for a semester of general chemistry, but not by many medical schools, and many of the students who would take general chemistry in college are pre-meds. In some schools, chemistry and chemical engineering majors take a harder general chemistry course that cannot be avoided with AP credit.</p>
<p>Physics B (no calculus): not likely to be accepted. Note that some high schools simply use the physics B syllabus as their honors high school level physics course.</p>
<p>Physics C (with calculus): each part may possibly be accepted as a semester (mechanics more likely than E&M, where college courses may use multivariable calculus to teach it), but may not be due to the varying organization of topics in the introductory physics courses (e.g. thermodynamics may be included somewhere).</p>
<p>Precalculus as a high school senior = normal math at grade level (assuming strong enough preparation to be ready for calculus as a college freshman).</p>
<p>Calculus BC as a high school senior = one year ahead.</p>
<p>Calculus BC as a high school junior = two years ahead, but if you don’t take additional math (e.g. at community college) while still in high school, you end up one year ahead when you start college.</p>
<p>Of course, being ahead in the high school sense may not get you ahead by as much in college if you did not score a 5 on the AP test.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, I have not read this entire thread, but have thought well of you as a poster on CC and wanted to help in whatever small way I could. </p>
<p>Mind you, I don’t have a kid in college yet, but the brain cells still remember what it was like to be a college kid myself (phi beta kappa at a very well-regarded but heavy party school). I saw a lot of kids crash and burn and would like to spare further pain if I can. </p>
<p>One engineering major I knew ended up failing and getting kicked out of school. I suspect engineering, in his particular case, was not his destiny or even his true love; he was just doing it for misguided & unclear reasons. I don’t know your kid, but my first bit of advice would be to listen hard to him and make sure that engineering is what he really wants…for himself. Not, say, to please or impress others, including parental units. Or because he wants the brass ring of being able to cut it, but then doesn’t care about the prize. Does that make sense? I knew med students, say, who belatedly discovered that, though they could handle the incredible load, didn’t have any interest in a medical career per se.</p>
<p>If he really wants engineering for all the right reasons, then help him attain it. There is more than one path to that. If he is not sure, figure out ways for him to find out. Try to pull the pressure off so he can see himself more clearly. Who knows…maybe he will end up an English major who loves to write about technical subjects…I really can’t begin to guess.</p>
<p>Shrink rap, Would it be possible to defer the decision by spreading out the intro classes over an extra year and giving S time to also take a few challenging classes in areas outside of engineering that interest him? This would involve biting the bullet a bit and agreeing to spring for an extra year of tuition, but might work out better in the long run if you can manage the financial angle. This would not only give him a better chance to master some basic material that others learned in high school but would also give him a chance to explore. If he remains in engineering it will not be because he never had a chance to look at anything else, and if he leaves engineering, especially if it is after he discovers he lacks enough interest to work hard enough in those courses, it won’t be to go to a department that is attractive mainly because he
can complete an entire major in a year or so.</p>
<p>“This would involve biting the bullet a bit and agreeing to spring for an extra year of tuition, but might work out better in the long run if you can manage the financial angle”</p>
<p>^Kids in boarding school do that for sports, right? That would be awesome! </p>
<p>Hope to email “the program” about a five year plan tomorrow.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, I found myself this morning wishing I could sit down face-to-face with Shrinkson, as I have counseled engineering freshmen/sophomores in the past. Good luck in your discussion with him. Hopefully he will listen to what people here have had to say with an open mind. No one is saying he CAN’T do it. But he has to want this. And if he doesn’t want it badly enough to fight for it, that’s fine too. He can fight for something he wants more.</p>
<p>I agree with sylvan that he needs to really want this. I had no concerns with older engineer son-top grades,SAT’s,AP’s,etc. in high school. He got through engineering in college with no problem. Younger son would not even take calculus in high school although he was on track to have done so(although did take AP physics and got 5). He kept indicating in HS he wanted to do engineering in college and I was very skeptical and voiced my concerns to him. I told him I would support him in what he wanted to do but also told him I was confused because he was not doing as well with grades in HS as he could have. I was very concerned he would have problems in college with such a demanding major as he was a bit of a slacker in high school. Frankly, I thought he may have been saying he wanted to do engineering because grandfather,father and brother were engineers and he may have figured he should follow the same path (although he was never pressured to do so). He has proven me wrong. He is a junior in college in engineering and has excelled. However, it is because HE has wanted it and has chosen to do the work necessary. It seems like your son does need a face to face with an advisor or mentor to help him sort this out so he can choose the best path for himself.</p>
<p>If you have the motivation you’ll find a way to get thru engineering without A-game math… (but with B-game math in top shape) The key is to find the specialty you like, make sure you understand the math (or lack thereof) involved, and go from there.</p>
<p>With ‘math lite’ for example. Computer Science, Industrial Engineering, Cognitive Engineering, Manufacturing Engineering, etc are all fairly doable. Even Civil Engineering is fairly doable (I did that and a few more from the previous list). With ‘math lite’ Electrical or Mechanical and probably Chemical, no can do. </p>
<p>The key is to get thru the first couple years, and be willing to ignore grades (C or better means C or better :-)) for math - now, if math issues spill over to science, that could be an issue…</p>
<p>“Shrinkrap, I found myself this morning wishing I could sit down face-to-face with Shrinkson, as I have counseled engineering freshmen/sophomores in the past” - That comment got me thinking. When DS was in hs, I lamented that there were options for paid college coaches (most useful for kids focused on a major), but not much opportunity to hire for advise about choosing a major.</p>
<p>Yes, the guidance office can help with interest surveys. And they steer math/science geeks toward engineering. But even with DH and I both being engineers, I would have valued advise with both our kids. (One did have many diverse strenths, and we hired a college coach to help “find passions”, but he misdirected the kids toward engineering)</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, instead of paying for an additional year for Shrinkson to find his passion, how about taking a semester or so break. Not to discourage but to rather help him come to terms with reality. If his gpa continues to dip he will not graduate and then where are you. The heart to heart is needed and it is not a bad thing. If engineering is his true passion then there are other alternatives to achieving his goal, maybe not where he is at this time in life.</p>
<p>This is such a great discussion, and not limited to engineering majors. Buying time with either an extra year in school or a break, as daredevil suggests, are both suggestions worth considering. So is the coach or counselor idea. Since Shrinkrap is trying to help Shrinkson figure out if he really wants engineering (and if so, then probably which subspecialty), then daredevil’s break might be just the ticket - not only to get a breather and some perspective, but maybe to use it to get some real-world experience to see if engineering is a good fit. Could Shrinkson find an internship, say, paid or unpaid, in engineering to really see what that career is like?</p>
I now realize that there are plenty of tech kids who have taken AP science in HS and will never take a lab science at a university. Seems a shame, as I just can not believe that AP science is as rigorous, in general, averaged over all HSs, as a lab science at a good U.</p>