<p>How invested is he in this program? If he doesn’t want to do engineering, can he still stay in the program? Has he ever talked about other things he might rather be doing? If he continues to struggle in the early engineering focused classes, I might be inclined to suggest he look into other opportunities. Kids drop out of engineering all the time. There is certainly no shame in that.</p>
<p>I have suggested we talk about other options over the break, but he wants to stick with engineering. I am not sure why. He has a lot of interests in what I think falls under communications, but he says that’s for “slackers”… He was originally admitted to this school for television production, but it was more screenwriting than production.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: I would agree not to send the email. </p>
<p>It is interesting the parallels that I see. My S is also in engineering and still convinced he would like to continue. And he also really enjoyed his media classes, and was always the one that actually did all the production. </p>
<p>Right now my S knows his back is to the wall, and his next Q is do or die. I’m not sure there is much more that I can say other than to let him know that I love him, I believe in him, and we are there for him. </p>
<p>I am dying to take control and get it straightened out with the school, etc, but this next few months is just going to be a big lesson in patience for me!</p>
<p>My overall suggestion is to treat the math co-reqs as actually being pre-reqs. Most places, if he delays the physics until the corresponding math is in place, everything else can follow in normal sequence. The engineering adviser should be able to provide sample schedules that meet all of the graduation requirements.</p>
<p>If you look at the course descriptions for calculus, the key words to look for are “differentiation” or “derivatives” and “integration,” both coupled with “single-variable.” A few places will include multi-variable calculus in the first two semesters, but most won’t. The single-variable calculus should be enough to handle mechanics.</p>
<p>The engineering courses that rely on the physics would be similarly shifted. However, allowing for the one-year shift, a completely standard engineering schedule could be followed afterward.</p>
<p>In the interim, while his math catches up, your son could fill his schedule in with the general education or distribution requirements, economics, foreign language, etc.</p>
<p>If your son thinks that he would really like to be an engineer, it is definitely worth it to build a very sound foundation in mathematics.</p>
<p>QuantMech, Sometimes kids just don’t seem to have the best math aptitude . Better to find out/explore math/science strenghth sooner than later. If the math/ science aptitude is not there or at the level needed for some fields of study, why not move on. Discuss with advisors about options and go from there. Not saying the math aptitude is not there with Shrinkrap’s son but it seems like he ,at minimum, needs to figure out if he wants to continue to pursue engineering.</p>
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Honey, he has a man thing going on, a peer thing going on, an eighteen year old thing going on, a minority thing going on— Hell, he has so much going on in there it’s a wonder HE knows what’s going on. </p>
<p>If he’s determined to soldier on, I suggest you tell him this:
</p>
<p>Even if he gives physics a whirl until drop date it won’t hurt unless he gets behind in other subjects, and he would get a taste of what it’s all about.</p>
<p>And Shrink, if he plunges in, I’m available for help. I teach this stuff. PM, PM, PM.</p>
<p>I agree with part of the commentary by sevmom and sylvan8798.</p>
<p>I think that math aptitude can be developed by the right courses. Shrinkrap’s son should work on developing it, if he wants to stick with engineering for sensible reasons. My niece majored in an engineering field at the University of Wisconsin, and had a somewhat difficult time with math at first; but at some point it clicked with her, and she got A’s in math after that. Many people who have studied math in some depth have experienced a surge in mathematical understanding at some poiint.</p>
<p>That said, I think the B in pre-calc contra-indicates trying to take calc-based physics at this point, as does the work in the initial chemistry course–so I agree strongly with sylvan8798 on the best advice. Having watched how it plays out in practice for a lot of students, I think that keeping the physics class until the drop date is likely to have an adverse impact on the work in other subjects, if sincere effort is devoted to physics. </p>
<p>Your son will have more to plunge in with, if he’s finished calculus first. Also, students are often reluctant to talk to profs or even TA’s (TF’s), but they shouldn’t be. It is often possible for the prof or TA to pin-point issues that a student is having, where the student doesn’t have perspective on the problem. On the MIT forum, jessiehl wrote about benefiting from help, when she was taking a course in differential equations. Things that are left implicit in the textbook or lecture can be tricky to spot. </p>
<p>As a final point, it’s important to recognize that engineering and pre-med GPA requirements are quite different. My niece belonged to a Facebook group “My GPA is lower than yours because I’m in engineering.” 3.0+ is definitely desirable in engineering, but I think an engineer with a 3.2 GPA is in reasonably good shape, whereas a pre-med with a 3.2 is probably not going to med school, except in unusual circumstances.</p>
<p>College math, taught by college faculty and support from TAs and the like can be much easier to comprehend than HS math. My DD1 took a math class in her 1st semester and nearly got an A in it - something unthinkable back in her HS days where nearly every math teacher in her HS was straight out of the case studies of the DSM-IV (Geometry with Courtney Love). </p>
<p>When DD1 was excited about math class (which would be common people excited about having a root canal) then they’re doing it right. DD1’s college also has an awesome support structure for tutoring and extra sessions, etc. all for free. </p>
<p>This parallels my experience in college. With the right teachers, math was actually enjoyable (Topology, yea!) but somehow all the bad profs seemed to have sunk towards the low end of the math course numbers… Once you get past Calc I and II, courses like Discrete Math, Linear Algebra, and the like are actually fun.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap- I’m impressed both by your reaching out and by all the wonderful responses, especially how they are from many perspectives.</p>
<p>I think the hardest part for us, as parents, is how much do we intervene. We always support our children, but there are times when we have to decide how active to be with our support… As our children become late adolescents, we know it’s when we become less and less involved, so that when we’re concerned or worried we’re also aware that we don’t want to interfere.</p>
<p>Staying with a developmental perspective, this is the potential starting point in your son’s career as an engineer. Potential start is key because there are so many variables involved-- academic pre-requisites for the major, the types of professors and TAs he’ll encounter as he meets those pre-reqs, and what he brings to the table.</p>
<p>My small suggestion for the immediate future is to listen to commenters, like Quant Mech, servmom, & sylvan (sequentially above from #304). The calculus is hugely important, particularly for physics. Quantitative facility also helps with chemistry. If it’s any consolation, much of the problem sets for calculus will most likely involve engineering-type problems; and physics in many ways is applied math. As he masters calculus, he might have a better, more nitty-gritty, idea of whether he wants to major in engineering.</p>
<p>AND, this has been a great thread. Thank you for starting it.</p>
<p>I was trying to remember when a first year physics student first encounters the pain in the neck that is integration. My recollection was that most of the hair-pulling revolved around calculating electromangetic fields around assorted objects. It seemed to me was that most of mechnanics involved differential calculus - kinematic equations etc. So I pulled my old copy of Halliday and Resnick off the shelf and looked for the first appearance of the dastardly long S. Yikes! No wonder I blocked this out of my mind. Those stupid “Moment of Inertia” calculations. Those were the bane of my existence for a while.</p>
<p>On a side note, I don’t know what book people use for Freshman physics now. I’m sure there are some good ones. And YMMV. But I think H&R is a great book. One of the best texts I’ve ever used. I still look things up in it.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the whole thread, but let me say that IMO, coreqs should generally be regarded with suspicion (i.e. assume that they are really prereqs, unless you find out otherwise for that particular situation.) In theory, perhaps the necessary math is covered in calculus before it is used in physics, but in real life, this isn’t always the case. Students are much better off to have the math down before physics. This is one reason why I think it is not a good idea for students with a good calculus background from high school to repeat Calc1. Getting a semester ahead of the coreqs is a lot more valuable in the long run than having an easy A the first semester.</p>
<p>It may be different at an LAC, but at the universities where I’ve been, there might have been some discussions between the physics or engineering faculty and math faculty over how to allign their courses back when the curriculum was designed (which for engineering core subjects was a very, very long time ago) but there have been several generations of new profs in these courses since then who just aren’t thinking about this and aren’t communicating.</p>
<p>Forgot to mention–there are a lot of free videos on the web of freshman physics courses–I know that they are available from both MIT and Yale. Could be watched in advance to get a head start, or along with the class to provide another presentation of the material.</p>
<p>Re: assuming that corequisites are really prerequisites</p>
<p>The student’s school lists calculus 1 as a corequisite for physics 1, but the “normal schedule” for his engineering major has physics 1 the semester after calculus 1. In this case, it would be sensible to view the corequisite listing with suspicion, especially since, at many other schools, calculus 1 is a prerequisite for physics 1.</p>
<p>The usual title for textbooks is “Physics for Scientists and Engineers”. Son used Fishbane at school (his first physics course was in university) and we had a copy of Serway that he studied in his early teens. Another common text is by Tipler. He found it useful to have a second textbook as it’s nice to get another slant on explaining something if it doesn’t click in your primary textbook.</p>
<p>For Physics II, I got him Purcell’s Electricity and Magnetism which he went through before taking Physics II. It’s essentially a book written in the 1960s - he really loved that book, more than the physics II course itself I think.</p>
<p>Having TAs and tutors available helps but I think that having supplemental textbooks or using the ones in the library helps too. I think that a lot of students overlook the library as a resource given how easy it is to find information on the internet.</p>
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<p>The MIT materials are much better. Walter Lewin is a more engaging professor and his videos provide far more in the way of illustrative experiments. The MIT materials also cover Physics I, II and III whereas the Yale Open Course just covers Physics I.</p>
<p>Some schools seem to vary the text from time to time. Halliday and Resnick is still popular, Serway and Jewett, Fishbane. Essentially, all the texts are similar at this level, with lots of bells and whistles, and typically some kind of online homework service. </p>
<p>Agree with the statement that students do not take enough advantage of the TA. Even if you don’t feel like the TA is helping in recitation sections, it’s worth going to see the TA on office hours. One-to-one help can be a different animal than the classroom setting, even where there is a language barrier. I hate it when students complain that they are doing poorly in a class but they have never attempted to get help.</p>
<p>My son was an undergrad TA last semester and probably will be again next semester. He had office hours once a week and he said that some kids did come every week for additional help. I agree with sylvan that kids should be taking advantage of additional resources like TA’s if they are struggling in a class at all.</p>
<p>Good morning! We talked last night, about starting like he finished off (which was with a flourish!).</p>
<p>(meaning he used office hours and tutors)</p>
<p>I confess to having NOT read all 22 pages of replies here, but my son had a lot of trouble in his first year in engineering too. His second year is going better and the difference is in his use of resources. He never had to in HS.</p>
<p>One website he likes - has anyone mentioned it? - is Khan Academy. Video lectures on every math and science topic. Both my kids use it.</p>