<p>@eadad: Future bankers will also be impacted with this crappy economy, don’t you think? And last time I checked i heard that it’s quite tough being a lawyer these days with the little-to-none job openings. I hear that many people step down to lower law professions since they can’t end up being a lawyer, even with a JD.</p>
<p>Isn’t a MD a sure way to get a job? Doctors are always needed this day and age.</p>
<p>If medical school doesn’t work out, where can this major get me?
Honestly, ask yourself this question. You can google many different majors and find what jobs can come about from them.</p>
<p>Majoring in Spanish and majoring in engineering or business/finance have totally different outcomes and salary levels. </p>
<p>If med school will work out for you, you need the highest gpa possible and at least a 29 Mcat with stellar and IMPORTANT extra-curriculars.
Best of luck</p>
<p>I know That Granata is young and having been young myself once I can appreciate the convictions of youth. It is however very unlikely that anyone starting College has really any idea of the life of a surgeon. One might say that one knows how to get into medical school, but thousands of others also “know” and fail. You might very well be successful in your aspirations but it is far too early to be thinking about such things as specialty when you have little or no experiences to guide you.
As to your “thoughts” about our income, what are they based upon? Have you seen any of the ACA contracts being offered? Any “opinion” about the probable effect of ICD 10? PQRI a problem? Effects of EHR on overhead and productivity? etc etc. I have no doubt that there will be jobs for physicians in the future but no one really knows what our income will be in ten years much less when you might start practicing if you are successful.
Most, if not pretty much all of us who are practicing think our incomes will be lower. We just do not know how much lower. It could very well be substantial. It might not be a “worthwhile investment” given the cost of Medical school today for someone for whom money is a primary.
I should also add in closing that while dexterity is helpful for a Surgeon, spatial reasoning ability, ambidexterity, hand-eye coordination, are irrelevant factors in choosing a Surgical resident. Unless you are an absolute klutz, 90%+ of medical students have the physical ability to do surgery. What makes a Surgeon is in his head.
When to operate, what are you trying to accomplish, how are you going to operate, what are the risks, what are you going to do when you face complications, how are you going to manage the post op period….etc. Can you handle the pressures and hours? How do you handle failure?
My only real advice is to excel at any liberal arts subject you enjoy. If medicine is in your cards, you will also become involved in the various extracurricular activities necessary for medical admission and hopeful enjoy your time in College. Start thinking about specialization during Medical school. You will learn about clinical Medicine when you do your clinical rotations and than you will have some real experience to guide you.</p>
<p>@mjscal: Yes, I am too young to even be thinking about this, but that’s the beauty of it. I do not want to waste my life wondering what career I’d excel at. Every job has stress factors. Some involve more stress than others. I, before this choice, wanted to do Political Science and become a lawyer. There is also stress in that, knowing that you could lose a case and make chump change. As you can see from the careers I have in mind, I do not mind stress, especially if I know I’m making more than 90% of Americans in the work force. I also enjoy the thought of saving lives. While it may all be stressful, it is well worth it in my opinion.</p>
<p>It’s not like I don’t have the slightest clue about what it’s like to be a surgeon. I have a good idea of what their lives may be like. </p>
<p>Another thing I want to mention is that there will always be jobs in the medical field, especially surgeons. People can go with avoiding lawyers for the rest of their lives, but if you need surgery, you can’t avoid it. Not to mention that many people wait until surgery is needed to cure themselves. Lawyers make money off of litigants, in which they determine their pay, but surgeons make money off of patients who need surgery, and as you know, you can’t avoid medical attention what it’s needed.</p>
<p>@Granata, if you want to go into medicine, thats great. I will retire or die someday and I know we will need young physicians to take up the work. However, it is extremely bad judgement to do it for the money or the security. </p>
<p>And in your reference that “Its not like I don’t have the slightest clue what its like to be a surgeon…” really, you don’t. I do Emergency Medicine. Some of my best friends are surgeons, and I would say I have very little grasp on the reality of “what its like to be a surgeon”. Surgery residents are some of the most miserable people in the world. And attending surgeons are not much happier these days. @mjscal has offered some real wisdom in his or her post. </p>
<p>Step one of becoming a surgeon…be open to advice from those older and wiser.</p>
<p>@VSGPeanut101: “Surgery residence are one of the most miserable people on earth.”</p>
<p>Hasty generalization, don’t you think?</p>
<p>@Granata, so far the reasons you give for going into surgery are making a whole lot of money and job security. Going into medicine to achieve this is like climbing Mount Everest to get a breath of fresh air. The relatively less miserable surgery residents are the ones who love the essence of what they do and are excited about that despite the long hours, grinding fatigue and massive financial sacrifice. I’m not hearing any of that from you. Maybe you should consider investment banking or something else lucrative. </p>
<p>
This post tells me you don’t know what it’s like to be either a surgeon or a lawyer.</p>
<p>Granata,
You absolutely cannot nail on specialty without trying. And by trying I mean rotation while at the Med. School (at least). You may discover that your personality does not fit at all with being in OR and people who are involved in performing the surgery. My D. did not think that she would fit in. Surgery was never her goal. However, only after surgery rotation, she realized how correct she was.<br>
“Surgery residence are one of the most miserable people on earth.”
Hasty generalization, don’t you think? "</p>
<p>-Not at all, not hasty generalization, it is a very true statement. But as I said above, you got to experience it yourself, you might be the one who fits perfectly. Some people are almost addicted to this type of environment, where everybody treats others harshly, and being unhappy person is just a norm. Some people cannot think about anything else. Not everybody hates being miserable, it is a natural state for some. There is nothing wrong with that, you just need to check out how your personality fits in there.</p>
<p>I understand that all of you are just trying to give me advice, but all i’ve been hearing from you guys is that the job is horrible. I mean, all you’re doing is going in there and cutting a guy up and patching him back up. I understand that there is loads of stress knowing that one mistake could screw everything up, but I do not understand why everyone sees this job as horrible and as extremely miserable. Am I going to get beat up my first day on the job or something? I do not see why I would be miserable knowing that i’m getting paid a lot and that medicine/helping people out in those circumstances somewhat take my interest. </p>
<p>I honestly would love to do a job that I extremely love, but i’d rather do a job that I somewhat enjoy and make loads of money rather than do a job that I extremely love but am making chump change. My parent’s aren’t involved in these decisions, but as a human being, I would feel more importance in life knowing that i’m ahead of the competition when it comes to my friends and everyone around me. I see myself miserable knowing that friends of mine are making loads of cash and i’m over here living a decent life. </p>
<p>If you do not want to hear what we are saying, then ignore, nobody is forcing any opinions on you, you are free to choose to listen or not. We can only share the truth that is known to us from various experiences and our kid’s experiences. Do you want us to tell a fairy tales or share what we know? </p>
<p>@Granata “I honestly would love to do a job that I extremely love, but i’d rather do a job that I somewhat enjoy and make loads of money rather than do a job that I extremely love but am making chump change.”</p>
<p>This statement is exactly why all of us are on you. It’s not that everyone in medicine is necessarily miserable–I enjoy what I do trememdously (I am not a surgeon). But the reason someone should go into medicine is that they love it–they love the idea of caring for patients, it resonates… </p>
<p>With you all I hear is calculation. And the path is too hard and uncertain to be fueled by ambition and calculation if it is not balanced by passion and belief. And you don’t sound like you have any. I wouldn’t want to be a patient taken care of by you. Your heart is not in the right place.</p>
<p>And with ACA there is NO guarantee that surgeons will be making “loads of money” in the future. Move your calculations in a different direction.</p>
<p>After having completed one entire semester of college GE courses and talking with your peers you had an epiphany and decided to change from law to med, specifically surgery. It is very understandable that you would have questions about the long process (at least 13 years, longer if you specialize) of getting from where you’re currently are at to a career in surgery. I believe your question about the pathway has been pretty well answered. </p>
<p>However you then went on to discuss the motivation behind your decision to pursue med/surgery. And although you pay lip service to “helping people”, your posts seem to scream out that it’s all about the money and prestige (“but as a human being, I would feel more importance in life knowing that i’m ahead of the competition when it comes to my friends and everyone around me”). Patients seem to come off as nothing more than profit centers from which you can make “loads of money” because “surgeons make money off of patients who need surgery.” Or “…I know I shouldn’t be thinking too much about profit, but which types of surgeons make the most money?” Or I don’t want to be “making chump change.” Money, money, money … as the song goes (O’Jays version).</p>
<p>Your posts make me wonder if you will recommend surgery because of the money and prestige, or because a patient actually needs the procedure? I suspect your response will be the latter, but all I can read are several earlier posts by you which strongly suggest the former. I think people posting here tend to think about the order of “needs” in the reverse direction (patient “needs” first, your “needs” secondary). This is why I believe you’re seeing the negative blowback.</p>
<p>“It’s not like I don’t have the slightest clue about what it’s like to be a surgeon. I have a good idea of what their lives may be like.” “I do not understand why everyone sees this job as horrible and as extremely miserable.” Mjscal in a post above offered a look into what it’s like to be a clinical side of surgery “(When to operate, what are you trying to accomplish, how are you going to operate, what are the risks, what are you going to do when you face complications, how are you going to manage the post op period….etc. Can you handle the pressures and hours? How do you handle failure?)”. As to the economic side of surgery, unless you have some special ability to look into the future and know what the impact of ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies etc on MD reimbursement rates over the next 30-40 years or their malpractice costs will be, etc., I really don’t think you have a clue about what a surgeon life is or will be like in the future. It certainly didn’t come your GE courses or your “peers” when talking about law and waiting on tables? </p>
<p>In any event although unsolicited, I would encourage you to continue down this pathway towards surgery. Please save your posts (“all you’re doing is going in there and cutting a guy up and patching him back up” and how “surgeons make money off of patients who need surgery.”) and then cut and paste your quotes into your residency application personal statement answering the question about why you have chosen surgery. I’m sure program directors will be eager to hire somebody like you who has such a thorough understanding and appreciation of surgery. And I suspect that if you use your quotes in your med school personal statement, you’ll be waiting on tables sooner than you think. Good luck.</p>
<p>This job is extremely challenging in many aspects and not just knowledge base / academic. It does not even look that surgeons are compensated enough for what they do and going thru (if you are after high compensation). That is why Surgery in general is not the most selective specialty (well, Plastics is while it is also surgery). D. said and she mentioned that every single surgeon that she met said the same: you absolutely have to love it with all your heart to the point that you cannot imagine your life without it, if you want to plunge into surgeon career. Otherwise, it would not be possible to survive there.
Again, all I know is just my D’s experiences. I do not know anything else, no anecdotes, no fairy tales.</p>
<p>Miami what the surgeons told your D is exactly the truth. </p>
<p>About midway through my S’s first year of his surgical residency he said that he had times when he honestly questioned his lifetime dream. Virtually every surgical program is considered to be “malignant” and most are measured in degrees of malignancy. The fact that “it’s always been done this way” still rules and the daily methodology is to beat down rather than offer praise and encouragement. </p>
<p>Now about to complete his second of six years it hasn’t changed much other than now they are on 36 hour call every two to three days and when not on call there is the the intense preparation and research to prepare for the cases you will see the next day. It is truly a beat down in every way. The mantra seems to be “I hate my life and if I didn’t absolutely love what I do and couldn’t see myself doing anything else, I’d quit.”</p>
<p>They become so jaded because praise is so rare that when it does come that they become cynical. </p>
<p>Three days ago he texted us to tell us that the rising chief resident had texted him this: “rumor among the attendings is that your skill set is at or above that of a fourth year and since we haven’t done any procedures together I’d like to scrub in with you to see how you dance” which is certainly high praise in a surgical program but he got very self deprecating and tried to downplay it…saying it was nothing, then later admitted it was very rare to get praise in surgery.</p>
<p>Granata doesn’t want to hear the truth and doesn’t appreciate criticism of what appears to be his motive - money. As I tried to tell him, there are far easier and faster ways to make a lot more money than what future surgeons might make. ACA is a game changer and no one has any real idea what the future holds but it’s a certainty that the days of the über rich surgeons are coming to an end. They’ll certainly make a nice, very comfortable living but only in a few areas will they be able to amass anything approaching the wealth of days past.</p>
<p>Personality match is absolute must and has to be utmost considered. D. has ruled out surgery way back in HS. She has pretty good sense of where she belongs and where she does not. The rotation (she thinks that she did NOT deserve “H”, but she got it) has just proven how correct she was. The differences in personalities going from one rotation to another is absolutely astounding. You cannot bend yourself that much, you will break if you do not belong there. </p>
<p>MiamiDAP, my son wants to be a surgeon. He wanted to be a doctor since 7th grade. And around junior year of high school he decided that he wants to be a surgeon. Either orthopedic or neuro. He’s going into junior year of pre-med and still hasnt changed his mind. So just curious, what personality type does the surgeon need to be?</p>
<p>Personality type–according to published journal studies: intensely focused, risk taker, decisive, extremely pragmatic, take-charge type A personality, super strong work ethic. Surgeons are typically extroverted, social and extremely competitive about everything they do. They thrive on constant challenges. At the same time, a surgeon must also be the ultimate team player and able to work within a very hierarchical structure. (Surgery is often likened to working under a military command structure.)</p>
<p>…I would add also, to be able to sustain very harsh “social” environment where many put others down for no reason whatsoever and absolutely have no regrets about it and where people think that this is actually the only way to insure perfection. Perfection is a must, it is understood, there is no other opinions there in OR. However, the social aspect of the way they obtain this perfection in OR sometime seemed to be NOT very effective for my Medical Student D. and completely going against her set of values (and she imagined just that way back in HS. Rotation was just a proof of being correct.) However, not everybody is as sensitive. So, you got to be made of stone and steel while retaining your sensitivity to a patient in need of your help and that help needs to be at the level of pure perfection and not a notch below. D. would strongly agree with “able to work within a very hierarchical structure”. But all she had was her great imagination, strong social awareness and ONE surgical rotation (and surgical part of another rotation which was even worse, she literally was counting days and hours to be out of there. She called after her last day and proclaimed, No more OR in my life!). One needs to collect many more opinions and definitely consider own experience first and formost. By experience, I mean, at least a rotation (which is part of “core” rotations anyway). </p>
<p>Momworried, like your son, my S wanted to be MD in elementary school as well. It wasn’t until MS3 rotations that he realized what specialty he would pursue. I wouldn’t get overly caught up in what personality traits are associated with any one specialty at this time. When he actually interacts with MDs, patients, fellow students, etc on a more regular basis in med school, your son will most likely find his life’s niche which may or may not be surgery. </p>