<p>So I have a friend who got accepted into a few UC schools such as UC Berkeley a while ago. He's an out of state student, and he's been telling me that Berkeley is his dream school. The biggest problem I see is that he's planning to be a doctor and go into med school, and Berkeley did not give him a lot of financial aid, so in the long run, he's going to be paying $40,000 a year PLUS the $100k+ for med school. His family's EFC is somewhere around 14-17k.</p>
<p>Even though Berkeley is so going to leave a dent in his family's wallet, he is justifying it because we both come from the state of Nevada, and if you guys know anything about NV, we're ranked the last in education. Some majors I hear might be getting eliminated/slashed funding, and because he heard most people get jobs around the area their college was from, he's worried that he'll be stuck living in NV. I don't know this is a justifiable reason for wanting to go OOS, but I guess he means that he's tired of the environment here, academic-wise.</p>
<p>On the other hand, he got accepted into the University of Redlands a while ago, and they gave him a VERY good financial aid package (how's getting over $30k in aid sound?). He just doesn't want to go because he's concerned that Redlands is too small for him/there's nothing for him to do there/not enough majors, etc. </p>
<p>In this case, do you think it's worth it to go to a prestigious OOS public school if it means a better setting, better opportunities, and so fourth, as my friend said but at the cost of finances later on? Is it worth it for him to go to Berkeley? Or would it be better for him to go to Redlands, where he'll still have to get $40,000ish in federal loans over 4 years, but it wouldn't be as bad as Berkeley? Or should he just stay in Nevada, work hard and hopefully end up out of state at a good med school?</p>
<p>His parents would likely have to move there.</p>
<p>Getting into Calif med schools is very hard…even if you’re going to one of their undergrads…so if he’s thinking that going to UCB will help him get accepted, he’s mistaken. Plus, the UC’s (including UCB) do NOT have a high acceptance rate to med schools. </p>
<p>Where else did he get in? (besides Redlands, which would be fine).</p>
<p>he’s going to be paying $40,000 a year PLUS the $100k+ for med school. His family’s EFC is somewhere around 14-17k.</p>
<p>Med school is going to be closer to $200k or more. Who is going to help him get those big undergrad loans? Does he know that HE can’t get them by himself?</p>
<p>That is waaaaaayyyyyy toooo much debt…even for someone who’s going to be a doctor. </p>
<p>Since he wants to be a doctor, I’m sure that Redlands can provide a good major for him.</p>
<p>It is darn near impossible to gain California residency for tuition purposes unless the OP’s family moves to California one year prior to matriculation, or the OP becomes financially independent from his/her parents.</p>
<p>The UC’s are accepting OOS kids bcos they want the OOS fees. Poor kids need not apply.</p>
<p>OP: CRAZY to pay OOS fees to a UC. There are NOT more opportunities available. Just the opposite…due to the budget crisis, the opportunities are shrinking. Med schools care about gpa+mcat first and foremost. </p>
<p>If he likes LACs, then Redlands is a nice program. Or, save money, stay instate, earn a 3.8+, take an mcat course, ace the test and apply broadly. Even consider UCSF at that point.</p>
<p>I’m not talking about becoming a CA resident before the first year at UCB to pay 4 years of In-State tuition. I’m talking about paying OoS tuition at UCB for 1 year and then becoming a CA resident after 1 year and paying In-State tuition for 3 years. Or is this still impossible?</p>
<p>Yes, I know exactly what you are “talking about”, which is incorrect. One cannot obtain instate tuition after one year for undergrad; it can be done for grad school, however… And yes, it is “impossible” (unless the OP’s family moves to CA or he becomes financially independent).</p>
<p>Chaos, [url=<a href=“http://www.google.com%5DGoogle%5B/url”>http://www.google.com]Google[/url</a>] is your friend. It’s very easy to look up California undergraduate residency requirements, and all the UC and CSU websites make it very clear that it’s virtually impossible to become a resident for purposes of tuition unless you graduated from a CA high school.</p>
<p>almazon the $30K in aid given by Redlands is very good. Was that a combination of merit and need-based aid? The COA is approx $52K/year, so he’d still need to come up with $22K/year for the 4 years, assuming need remains the same and he meets the conditions for continuing to receive merit aid. Redlands just increased tuition and room & board by about 4%, and increased grants by $350-500 to offset some of that cost. How does that compare to paying in-state in NV?</p>
<p>I’d suggest that he either chooses Redlands or stays in NV and attends UNR or UNLV. The loans that would be required for him to attend UCB are simply too high when med school is in his future.</p>
<p>There’s no way he’s getting instate residency for CA. Even if he were to try to classify as a financially independent, that would require him to show he is financially well off by working full time, and I don’t think he has that time to do that. </p>
<p>@mom2collegekids: Are you serious? UC don’t have good med school acceptance rates? I knew from friends who currently attend Berkeley that premed isn’t so hot there, but wow. The only other schools he got into were University of Washington, UCLA, and Washington State University. UWashington gave him all loans for his aid package, and judging from my other friend’s bad finaid packages from OOS publics, I don’t expect WSU to give him a whole lot either. UCLA wasn’t any better. Either way, Redlands is still the cheapest OOS college for him to go to if you factor transportation and misc costs in.</p>
<p>@vballmom: The $30,000+ in aid is the whole deal: loans, scholarships and grants. His mom is willing to fork over $15k, but that would mean he has a $7k gap every year, assuming he gets the same amount of grants. If he took out the max amount of federal loans during his years in college, that would be $28k + $31k. Would that still be too expensive to manage?
UNR would cost him $13,000-$15,000 a year (tuition and dorms). He also got a $5,000 presidential scholarship from there, so it would drop it down to approx $9k a year? either way UNR would be a lot more manageable than UCB. He’s just worried the environment at UNR or UNLV wouldn’t “push” him to have the opportunities or skills to succeed because not everyone there is exactly ambitious like UCB kids. My friend is just stubborn because he doesn’t want to be “stuck” in Nevada all his life.</p>
<p>^^The UC’s do fine in med admissions. The issue is obtaining admission to a UC med school, which is extremely competitive. (More people applying to California and fewer med schools than some much less populated states.) Admission to UNevada is much, much easier for its instate residents. He would be crazy to want to gain California residency. Much better to go live in Texas where the instate med schools are still relatively cheap.</p>
<p>One is only as ambitious as one chooses to be. If one relies on others to push themselves, then one will never truly succeed. UCB (or any other college) is not some magical place that will by power of its name only produce incredible students.</p>
<p>Your friend needs a reality check: those OOS options are not reasonably affordable (especially with much more affordable options on the table). The loans are far too much and in many cases would be incredibly crippling for much of his life. Burdening himself and his family with so much debt will not give him the opportunities he thinks it will.</p>
<p>His best bet, as many have suggested already, would be to take the most financially sound option, work hard, get a high GPA, score high on the MCAT, and then go on to burden himself with the heavy debt for grad school. With med school in mind, he needs to minimize his undergrad debt. He’ll get out of Nevada eventually if that’s what he truly wants to do. If he puts himself in heavy debt to go to college OOS, I’d say there’s a far more likely chance he’ll remain stuck in Nevada just trying to pay down that debt.</p>
<p>As a general side comment to clarify the rules for establishing residency: it would take two years of proving financial independence (parents not claiming for those two years and able to prove through pay stubs one is completely self-supporting; no help from friends/family allowed), being present in the state for at least one year prior to the start of the term residency is being requested, and proving intent to make California one’s permanent home for the foreseeable future. The intent is the hiccup that can trip most people up. This is the UC residency for tuition purposes rules. The CSUs require three years of financial independence.</p>
<p>And even if residency could be gotten, one would still be unable to pay since California public schools do not meet need for even in-state students and the state grant aid available is only available to those who graduated high school as a California resident.</p>
<p>almazon $28-30K in loans is not completely unreasonable, except when looking at med school loans on top of that. I wouldn’t recommend doing it, especially if your friend can go to UNR or UNLV for $9K/year which his mother seems able to easily pay for. He can get a good education there. He’ll do betting in life if he can develop his inner ability to challenge himself rather than counting on outside forces to push him. </p>
<p>The published COA of Redlands is a little lower than I had indicated, around $49K rather than $52K. What’s not included are transportation and misc expenses that can add another $2000-$3000/year, or less if the student is very frugal.</p>
<p>As for not wanting to be stuck in NV, that’s easy: do well in undergrad and aim for the best med school possible after that.</p>
<p>This is not even close. Your friend would be CRAZY to rack up that kind of debt for undergrad when he is planning on Med School. Even Redlands looks pretty steep if the $30k includes loans. How much in loans? plus $15k from mom, plus a $7k gap each year. Your friend can take the money saved by going in-state and do some impressive medically based internship- go volunteer at an AIDS clinic in NYC for a semester, or do research. The kind of debt your friend is considering is CRUSHING. You can’t ever volunteer or take time off, because you owe too much money. And, not everybody who plans to go to med school gets that far. Then you owe big bucks, but no big salary to go with it.</p>
<p>Even if your friend wasn’t planning medical school, racking up that kind of debt is unwise. I’m assuming he has to borrow close to the full $40K per year, which would be $160K of debt. How does he think he will be able to pay off that debt? Over 10 years, that’s $1841 a month. Even if he gets extended repayment of 30 years, that’s a payment of $1031 a month and over the long term he’ll have paid out $375,000+ total. Not to mention with an EFC of $17K, will his parents even qualify for those loans?</p>
<p>Throw an extra $200K on top of that for medical school (which honestly is a low estimate) and even with a 30 year repayment plan, that’s $2300+ a month. He’ll struggle until his 50s to pay off that loan, and it may affect his choices of residencies and specialties instead of being free to select what he wants.</p>
<p>Remind your friend that his life won’t end after he turns 22 and leaves college. On the contrary, he’s got his entire life - 50-60 years - to move out of Nevada and go somewhere else. He can go to a medical school in another state, or he can decide to do a residency somewhere else, or he can set up a practice in a different city. Just because he goes to a NV state school doesn’t mean he’ll be stuck there his entire life, and tell him it’s silly to imagine that because if he’s going to medical school, his med school will matter far more than undergrad. Save the big debt for then. Also, what if he changes his mind and doesn’t go for med? That debt will be more than crippling, it’ll be untenable. Even a new grad making a $60K salary and living at home can’t pay a $160K debt. I know for him it may be unfathomable to not go to medical school, but the truth is the vast majority of students who start out pre-med their freshman year don’t make it to medical school. Either they find interest in something else, they wash out of the classes or they don’t get in.</p>
<p>@vballmom: would $28-30k of debt be more manageable, especially if one were to go to graduate school out of state later on? I’ve been trying to tell him of the various options he has if he doesn’t get into med school, but it’s still a little frustrating trying to work out a solution he’ll be at least pleased with. </p>
<p>@juillet: thanks for bringing up all those good points. I’ll try to talk to him about that, but quite a few of my high-achieving friends (including him) are just worried about the “prestige” of undergrad college lately.
Paying close to $2,000 a month if he goes to UCB? I hope I don’t sound like I fail at economics/finances here, but it is entirely possible, if he’s frugal enough, that if he ends up by chance getting a job that pays him $70k, could he use all his salary to pay for his debts if he lives with his parents until his debt is gone or is that not logical? I really don’t know how repayment plans would work according to income size.</p>
<p>*@mom2collegekids: Are you serious? UC don’t have good med school acceptance rates? I knew from friends who currently attend Berkeley that premed isn’t so hot there, but wow. *</p>
<p>UCLA and UCB have about 50 -60 % acceptance rate to med schools. That means that when their pre-med students apply to various med schools (often 10-20 schools), they have a 50-60% chance of getting accepted to at least ONE MD AMERICAN med school. The facts aren’t pretty for pre-med at those schools. </p>
<p>Part of the problem is that these schools have a lot of pre-meds…and the schools don’t have great pre-med advising NOR do those schools do Med School Committee Letters.</p>
<p>^^But it also comes down to raw numbers: California has 36 million residents and 8 medical schools. New York has less than 20 million population with ~11 med schools. Texas has a population of 24 mill with 9 med schools. (yes, I realize that I also included the private schools within the state, but the point remains the same. med school per capita is extremely low in Calif driving up the competition for admissions).</p>
<p>Practically every instate med school gives priority to its own residents. Some publics rarely accept an OOS student. Do the math: one needs higher than national average numbers if a California resident. UC is not the issue per se. That same California resident would need higher numbers if attending Stanford or HYP (with great advising).</p>
<p>I’ve been wanting to ask this question, but I keep on forgetting. I’m not sure if this question should belong in its own thread, but here it goes:</p>
<p>Regarding how certain schools have a better pre-med medical school acceptance rate for their own undergraduate students than other schools, some say that it is due to better pre-health advising.</p>
<p>But does this also apply to graduate schools (MS and PhD programs)? Where can I find an advisor that would coach me on gaining admission to PhD (particularly Chemistry) programs? I don’t think my school has such an advisor. Do other schools such as the top ones like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Stanford have such advisors that coaches their students to get them into PhD Programs?</p>
<p>for grad programs, your best ‘advisor’ is in your own Department, even perhaps the Chair. If your letter writer (for a rec) is well published and well known in the field, it will be noticed at whatever grad school to which you apply. </p>
<p>IMO, pre-health advising committees serve a fine purpose but also serve their own purpose. It would be really easy to discourages/dissuade a low-stat student from applying to med school to boost your own numbers. Perhaps that is a good thing in the aggregate, since low stat applicants have a LOW chance, but…</p>
<p>For example, Holy Cross clearly states that they will NOT give a letter to every applicant who wants to go to med school from their college. They only give Committee letters to those that that deem worthy. Needless to say, HC claims a high acceptance rate into med school. Doh! (Not having a Committee letter is the kiss of death to an applicant.)</p>
<p>In contrast, anyone and everyone from the UCs can and does apply to med/dent/pharm/vet schools, with no restrictions, whether or not they are even qualified, bcos the UC’s do not have a Committee. Stanford doesn’t either.</p>
<p>I’m a grad student at Columbia, and in my experience, there’s no special pre-PhD advisor that coaches undergrad students into getting into top PhD programs. Usually students start doing research with a professor and that professor becomes a mentor and advisor to the student, guiding them and advising them on how to get into graduate school. Every professor at your school is likely to have a PhD, so all of the professors in your department (or virtually all) will have had experience with the graduate admissions game. Ask them.</p>
<p>I think schools not giving letters or encouragement to everyone is a good thing. If you have a 2.5 GPA, you are not going to get into medical school. If you failed organic chem twice before scraping by with a C, you are not going to get into medical school. Why should they give false hope to students and encourage them to waste their money on AMCAS? Medical school has 10% and down acceptance rates; even top students are getting rejected, so how much more hopeless is it for those people with a sub-3.0 science GPA and low MCAT scores? Better for them to refuse to encourage the delusion and gently guide those students into something else. More schools SHOULD use a system like Holy Cross, but the UCs probably don’t have the manpower to do it.</p>