Perfectionism at Swat

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
21

<p>yaluus, </p>

<p>Thank you, thank you, thank you! I've been holding back from posting again on this thread for lack of understanding, but I feel like you hit the nail on the head! College, or more likely, American society at large rewards perfectionism in lots of different ways. I think that is part of the reason why it's such a difficult habit to break out of. Places like Swat smile on students who work hard. It is very admirable to have such drive, and for the most part, it's about love for the work. But when that drive begins to take a toll on your mental health, well then we have a problem. You can love to learn and study and still overdo it. I love learning to a ridiculous extent. But when I can't sleep and eat because I'm anxious thinking about school and the million things I have to do on a day to day basis, well, I'd argue that that's not a great thing. </p>

<p>And thank you SO MUCH for this.... "Moral of it: perfectionism can be very hard to get rid of." Yes, Swat has pass/fail so you can figure out a new system of studying and to figure out what the school requires, but when it comes down to it, I don't feel like some of the aspects of perfectionism like anxiety, black and white thinking, all-or-nothing, depression, unrealistic expectations, etc. are choices. At least I certainly wish I didn't experience them. They are compulsions. I've been working through this stuff in therapy for almost five years now and still struggle a lot. It's not just a choice of, "okay, I'll just not do X assignment and just skim Y assignment and be okay with a B on Z paper." It's about disordered thinking and unreasonable expectations. It's a cognitive distortion that, at least for me, is based on many years of knowing that I was never good enough and that I was at fault. It's not just something that you just shut off. </p>

<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, I was sensational with my "study break" comment. But the fact is that while a perfectionist can thrive at Swat, there are certain aspects of that community that, at least for me, exacerbated my perfectionism. No, it's not unique to that school. There are many similar "pressure cookers" out there. I'd just rather not be at any of them at least at this point in my life.</p>

22

<p>This has been discussed before, but it is worth repeating:
There's nothing wrong with being a perfectionist. OCD is a disorder; perfectionism isn't. We all want our doctors/electricians/engineers/plumbers to be perfectionists. You can be a perfectionist without driving yourself crazy.</p>

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<p>yes, but would you want a teacher who's a perfectionist? Or, a computer programmer? Or, even a lab scientist? I can definitely see situations where being a perfectionist could get in the way of good results.</p>

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<p>Perfectionism gets in the way of good results when it becomes pathological.</p>

<p>If a lab scientist is not a perfectionist, he will not be able to get reproducible results, or results that can be trusted. A technician who cuts corners to get the job done is every scientist's nightmare.</p>

<p>A computer programmer who is not a perfectionist will find it very hard to be successful.</p>

<p>A perfectionist teacher would be one that strives to be a perfect teacher (not a one that expects all students to be perfect) - nothing wrong with that.</p>

<p>Again, when perfectionism becomes pathological, it obviously can be harmful. But it does not have to be a pathology to strive for perfection (while recognizing that it can't always be achieved).</p>

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<p>sounds like Swarthmore's work is done. :D</p>

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<p>I am concerned that we don't fall into a trap of thinking that Banana represents a typical Swattie. Most Swatties have not been in therapy for five years for OCD issues, have not taken a year and a half break from college, and have not transfered to a local public university.</p>

<p>Over the last five entering freshman classes, and average of 96% of Swatties returned for sophmore year, 88% graduated in four years, and 92% graduated in five years.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, </p>

<p>I just wanted to note that although I've transfered from Swat, I'm not counted among those 4% of students who do not return. People in the deans office are very reluctant to drop you as a student and I'm sort of on a "permanent leave" sort of deal whereby I could actually come back if I wanted to. This has it's advantages, but I've often wondered why the deans push so hard for this option... My cynical side says its so that they can inflate that retention rate. </p>

<p>Also, while I'm not a typical Swattie in the regards that you listed, I would say in other ways I'm very similar to may Swarthmore students. Just because I differ from the mainstream in these specific ways doesn't make my experience less relevant. Maybe this prospective student shares these issues with me. I did give a disclaimer in my first post. </p>

<p>What is a typical Swarthmore student anyway? And doesn't the school try to promote diversity?</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
I just wanted to note that although I've transfered from Swat, I'm not counted among those 4% of students who do not return. People in the deans office are very reluctant to drop you as a student and I'm sort of on a "permanent leave" sort of deal whereby I could actually come back if I wanted to. This has it's advantages, but I've often wondered why the deans push so hard for this option... My cynical side says its so that they can inflate that retention rate.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You most certainly are counted in the data I cited. It is based on the actual number of students from each freshman cohort who returned for the start of each subsequent year.</p>

<p>The fact that Swarthmore is keeping the porch light on for you has nothing to do with these statistics.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/ir/RetGrad.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/ir/RetGrad.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The reason they keep you on a permanent leave status is to give you every opportunity to complete your education at Swarthmore should you ever want to do so. They've kept the light on for some people that you would never expect to return who returned and graduated with highest honors. They really do try to do right by their students.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, while I'm not a typical Swattie in the regards that you listed, I would say in other ways I'm very similar to may Swarthmore students. Just because I differ from the mainstream in these specific ways doesn't make my experience less relevant. Maybe this prospective student shares these issues with me. I did give a disclaimer in my first post.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not taking a swipe at you. I just don't want people to think that, just because we saw a 7 foot basketball player that all the students at a university are 7 feet tall.</p>

<p>As for the original poster, frankly, she's expressed so much trepidation for so long about Swarthmore that it's probably not the right school for her. But, then again, I think she's just a junior so who knows what she'll think after some campus visits.</p>

<p>My daughter says there are two kinds of people who shouldn't go to Swarthmore:</p>

<p>a) Students who already plan to be slackers in college</p>

<p>b) Students who will fall apart (either from internal or external pressure) if they don't get an A in every course.</p>

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<p>There's also a fine balance between wanting to be surrounded and challenged by intellectual peers and possibly feeling intimidated by those same peers. If you visit Swarthmore and do not see yourself contributing in class or taking advantage of professors' office hours, you may want to reconsider. I truly believe that Swarthmore is not for the "faint of heart" - students need to be on top of their academic game - not just for the grades but mainly to fully experience all that Swat has to offer.</p>

30

<p>I think it's important to note, that although Swat may be the most rigorous of the LAC's, most of the top schools are also very difficult to ace a course in.</p>

<p>It's not like Amherst, Williams, or any of the others just give grades away. </p>

<p>I am not trying to take away any of Swat's distinctiveness. I am trying to say that all top schools are very demanding, and Swat seems to go out of its way to help students succeed from all I've heard.</p>

<p>Painful perfectionism will be an issue at many colleges. If Swathmore appeals the most, it should not be avoided on these grounds.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
It's not like Amherst, Williams, or any of the others just give grades away.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Brown does.</p>

<p>They don't make Biffy or Buffy take any courses they don't want to. Might hurt their self-estime to take a science course.</p>

<p>Then, they let Biffy and Buffy take any course anytime for Satisfactory/No Credit. But, to make sure they get the gold star if they do really well, they can get a Satisfactory with Distinction.</p>

<p>And, they can ask for a written evaluation for any course. After reading the evalutations, they can choose to have the good ones attached to their permanent records.</p>

<p>If Biffy or Buffy chooses to roll the dice and go for a letter grade, they can be confident that no failing grades will be awarded. If they fail the course, it's just a no credit. The odds are good that Biffy and Buffy will feel really good about themselves since more than 50% of the grades given at Brown last year were As. Only 22% were B's. 4% Cs. </p>

<p>And, as a final gift, Biffy and Buffy don't have to suffer fractured ego's from an A-. Only letter grades are given, so all A-s are converted to As.</p>

<p>So, yeah. If you are looking for a easy golf course, with not too much water, and played from the short tees, there are probably easier places than Swarthmore, places where the As are easy and everyone is "well above average".</p>

<p>What a country huh? Don't worry about perfectionism, we'll just give everyone As!</p>

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<p>Interesteddad: Would you consider yaluus representative of a typical Swarthmore student? If not, what WOULD you consider typical? (Not sarcasm; I'm genuinely curious.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Interesteddad: Would you consider yaluus representative of a typical Swarthmore student?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Heck no. Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how incredible a 4.0 GPA is at Swarthmore? There are people in science PhD programs at MIT today who graduted with a 3.7 at Swarthmore. Yaluus is brilliant and/or worked his or her butt off. Mad props. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If not, what WOULD you consider typical? (Not sarcasm; I'm genuinely curious.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think there really is "typical" when asked that broadly. As far as academics, I think the typical Swattie works conscientiously, figures out how to do what they have to do, gets a great education, loves learning, and graduates with somewhere between a 3.0 and a 3.7 GPA and is happy with what they get. I think the school-wide median GPA is a B+.</p>

<p>Actually, there's a very strong culture at Swarthmore to use the pass/fail first semester to break the grade perfectionist tendencies. I don't think this kind of students ever completely break it -- they are still conscientious about their studies. A lot of them do, however, break out from the grade-focus in a healthy way. My daughter, for example, used to tease her Georgia Tech friend about being so grade focused.</p>

<p>In a way, I think it's liberating to be in a situation, for the first time in many cases, where not only are they not expected to be the top dog, but where they couldn't be the top dog if they studied 48 hours a day because there are some seriously brilliant students at Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>I am not sure what to make of the back-and-forth discussion of whether or not someone is a 'typical Swarthmore student,' or whether someone can even be a 'typical Swarthmore student.' If the issue of whether I am such a creature (if they even exist - I would say that they do not) because I have a high GPA, I guess not? I don't know - as people say on here, I have no idea what sorts of grades my friends receive, nor do I care. It is true - people do not discuss grades here with any sort of frequency.</p>

<p>If the issue is whether my perfectionist leanings are typical, again I don't know - I suppose that I come off as a hard worker, but I doubt most people that I know I can be a bit obsessive (or, I hope they don't anyway!) - so how do I know what runs through other people's heads when they think about work and grades? Also, just to differentiate things again, I am not a perfectionist about grades - I am ambivalent about my GPA and came to college with the intention of /not/ keeping up the all-A march that was high school. I am a perfectionist about my effort - I never mastered the art of asking for a well-placed extension, nor of how to write a paper at the last minute and cover up half-baked ideas with good prose. It bothers me on a fundamental level to turn something in knowing that I could have worked harder on it and did not. Or, to not understand something as well as I could. And as I have said before, this would bother me anywhere, not just Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Truth be told (this thread is turning weirdly confessional), I can point to the single experience when I decided that working very, very hard was the way to solve my problems - and it was not at Swarthmore! It was a summer language program that was not what I had expected. The short: it felt like high school with the same social hierarchies. And so I responded like I did in high school - I worked really hard and kept my nose in my work, except that this was a profoundly challenging program so when I say I worked hard, I mean it. And I did horribly well. When I went back to Swat in the fall, I just couldn't get back into the healthier mindset that I had come close to achieving my first year.</p>

<p>The message here is that just because Swarthmore is difficult or because you have been concerned with doing well in school in the past, this does not mean that you will run into problems here! It just means that you should check yourself when you feel yourself slipping back into your old ways (and don't go to any socially isolating summer language programs, haha).</p>

<p>(Banana: sensationalist or no, I know exactly what you mean about 'study breaks' entailing that people are studying when not, eh, breaking. Objectively, you know they aren't just emerging from their rooms or carrels for 45 minutes a week to eat pizza, but still...(neurotic) what if they are?!? (/neurotic).</p>

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<p>Interestdad,</p>

<p>I do not want to get into a debate about the value of grading, but Brown does not "give away" grades and it does have requirements within the student's chosen concentration. Colleges are like ice cream, there are many varieties for many tastes. </p>

<p>As you know, I have a daughter at Swarthmore. I also have a son who graduated from Brown and I take exception to your characterization of a Brown education. </p>

<p>Brown is not an easy golf course as you depict. At Brown, just as at Swarthmore, a student can make whatever they want out of their education. My son chose to attend Brown because of the programs in which he was interested. He was a double concentrator and chose the honors route which required a thesis in each. He worked very hard and earned the respect and friendship of his professors. Nothing was handed to him. He had no problem getting into graduate schools and just finished at Columbia. He was not unique in his dedication and hard work. He had a core of 12 friends who lived together through most of their time there and I got to know them pretty well. All of these kids worked hard and had no trouble with being accepted into graduate/professional schools at Ivy league institutions or entering the work force upon graduation. They are all interesting, eclectic human beings who were accepted into prestigious programs because they are incredibly smart, talented students who work hard. NONE ARE SLACKERS. Moreover, they are not atypical from most other Brown students and all of these kids would have done well at Swarthmore or any other institution they had chosen to attend.</p>

<p>From a pedagogical standpoint, grades and testing are not necessarily a true, or only measure of knowledge or ability. Brown has a different philosophy from Swarthmore. Neither is better than the other. For some people Swarthmore is a great fit, for others it is not. For my daughter I felt Swarthmore was a better choice. For my son Brown was perfect. Could they have switched places and excelled? Of course. In fact, there are many overlap applicants at both schools and both seem to attract and accept a similar type of student.</p>

<p>To extol the virtues of Swarthmore it is not necessary to demean or belittle other schools. There are students who will work hard no matter where they are, and there are students who will coast. Cream rises to the surface in every facet of life. </p>

<p>And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging positive self-esteem....</p>

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<p>
[quote]
To extol the virtues of Swarthmore it is not necessary to demean or belittle other schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hear, hear. Thanks, Dramatica. </p>

<p>
[quote]
For some people Swarthmore is a great fit, for others it is not.

[/quote]
Also very true.</p>

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<p>Thanks again, Yaluus! Yes, it's neurotic to infer that "study breaks" infer that those are the only acceptable time not to have the nose to the book, it's sort of ridiculous, on reflection, how much that term was used at Swat. Playing a board game, drinking wine, eating cookies, making fondu, they are all study breaks. I didn't realize until I left that study breaks were also known as social events independent of studying... go figure! Good luck in your last year!</p>

<p>Interesteddad, Thanks for the clarification on both issues.</p>

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<p>dramatica:</p>

<p>The statement was made that none of the elite college gives away grades. I believe that Brown does:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/documents/TABLE21.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Institutional_Research/documents/TABLE21.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It's appears that their policy (without the connotations of a "D" or and "F" or even a mildly differentiating "minus" or "plus"), in effect, means record an "A" or record nothing. I'm sure it's a fine university. My daughter considered it as one of the more undergrad friendly universities in the northeast. None of that, however, changes the fact that their grading system (sic) is less than rigorous.</p>

<p>Their own just-released report on Brown's 1969 "flower power" curriculum points out that nearly 1 in 5 Brown students graduates without taking two courses in math and science.</p>

<p>As you correctly point out, the big losers are the excellent students at Brown who work diligently at a high level and have no way to distinguish themselves from slackers coasting their way to the same result with the feel-good "gold star for Jeremy because he's trying, bless his heart" grading system.</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
Brown is not an easy golf course as you depict. At Brown, just as at Swarthmore, a student can make whatever they want out of their education. My son chose to attend Brown because of the programs in which he was interested. He was a double concentrator and chose the honors route which required a thesis in each. He worked very hard and earned the respect and friendship of his professors. Nothing was handed to him. He had no problem getting into graduate schools and just finished at Columbia. He was not unique in his dedication and hard work. He had a core of 12 friends who lived together through most of their time there and I got to know them pretty well. All of these kids worked hard and had no trouble with being accepted into graduate/professional schools at Ivy league institutions or entering the work force upon graduation. They are all interesting, eclectic human beings who were accepted into prestigious programs because they are incredibly smart, talented students who work hard. NONE ARE SLACKERS. Moreover, they are not atypical from most other Brown students and all of these kids would have done well at Swarthmore or any other institution they had chosen to attend.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Had Brown not inflated his grade, would he still get into Columbia? I know at least 2 students who aren't smart, or talented, or hard-working.</p>

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<p>ID: I don't know about Brown, though because dramatica does I will take his/her post and assume that Brown offers an excellent education.</p>

<p>The point of my post was not to compare schools. My point was that Swat would not be the only school at which perfectionism was a problem, and that if the OP really loved swat she should go for it.</p>

<p>My post was meant to be in support of Swat, not to diminish its glory in any way.</p>

<p>I know my S chose Williams over Brown, and there are many days I wish he had some of the latitude a Brown education affords. I feel this not because he's a slacker but because sometimes the pressure on him limits his adventurousness and limits some of his choices.</p>

<p>He felt he needed more structure, and much as he loved Brown, he chose Williams. He did not even look at Swat because its reputation discouraged him. My point is that it shouldn't have because his school is quite rigorous as well. I don't think he regrets his choice in the least, but I think its a shame that some students who belong at Swat are discouraged from attending.</p>

<p>I certainly agree with dramatica and HMW that there is no need for dissing any school, but I repeat that my intention was to encourage attendance at Swat.</p>