<p>It's the good students who are hurt by giving away grades. There's no extra distinction for particularly strong work when half students get "A" grades (not even an "A-")</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think its a shame that some students who belong at Swat are discouraged from attending
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is a shame, but the school also derives a benefit from the "reputation". They end up with a student body that is at least willing, if not eager, to play from the back tees. I think that little bit of self-selection is - to a very large degree - what makes the academics at Swarthmore so special. There are no surprises. The students knew they would be playing from the back tees.</p>
<p>I agree with your larger point. Anyone who thinks they will have to work too hard at Swarthmore is going to be in for a rude surprise if they expect to do well at any of the top colleges. There was never a moment during my four years at Williams when I didn't feel like I should have studying. That's college.</p>
<p>On this Brown thing, I don't think Brown can really complain about a little elbow in the ribs on their grading system. It is pretty incredible the lengths they go to to avoid recording an "average" or below grade on the transcript. "Satisfactory with Distinction" cracks me up every time.</p>
<p>They might as well eliminate grades, or institute a system of grading similar to that in place at the best law schools: pass/fail/honors.</p>
<p>Why bring up Brown? It's a liberal arts university, not a liberal arts college.</p>
<p>
You can't be serious. A diligent, hard-working, enthusiastic student requires others to be given low marks or it's not fair? There are a lot of things in life that aren't fair, and this has to be one of the least significant. Anyone who works hard and does well at Brown and wants to parlay that into future academic or professional endeavors is probably going to be just fine. If, however, he must see others fail and fall to the wayside in order to feel like he's accomplished something and feel like everything is fair, he's going to have a long, hard road of ego-crushing lessons in front of him. If anything, Brown is pushing the envelope in the right direction on this one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's the good students who are hurt by giving away grades. There's no extra distinction for particularly strong work when half students get "A" grades (not even an "A-")
[/quote]
</p>
<p>OK...</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as academics, I think the typical Swattie works conscientiously, figures out how to do what they have to do, gets a great education, loves learning, and graduates with somewhere between a 3.0 and a 3.7 GPA and is happy with what they get. I think the school-wide median GPA is a B+.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So, at Brown the effective median GPA is an A and at Swarthmore it's a B+. You have stated that over 50% of grades given out at Brown are As, but your statement here implies that 50% of grades given out at Swarthmore are either an A, A-, or B+. This doesn't seem like such a big deal that you should be getting all worked up about it.</p>
<p>Well, here I'm with ID. It is if you're struggling for an A and can't earn it.</p>
<p>I know that my D at Barnard regularly has apoplexy about friends of hers who easily gets A's for work she would be grateful to receive a B on.</p>
<p>It's true; others' students experience shouldn't be her concern, but sometimes she has found it frustrating.</p>
<p>And she is required to do a thesis too.</p>
<p>I think what she finds more frustrating is the repeated assumption that the Brown education is superior because of Barnard's lowly ranking in USNWR. </p>
<p>But she is getting an excellent education. She was quite shocked to discover the Barnard classes were more difficult than the Columbia classes. In fact most Barnard students have a higher GPA in their Columbia courses than in their Barnard courses.</p>
<p>So perhaps that was the "rude awakening" that Swat students don't have. Still, the Barnard women adjust fast, and as ID says, never feel that they shouldn't be studying.</p>
<p>They also have to take five courses each semester which makes the work very intense.</p>
<p>But sorry, I am getting off topic. Please forgive.</p>
<p>Interesteddad,</p>
<p>I started my prior post with the statement that I did not want to debate the merits of grades, and I reiterate it, but feel compelled, nonetheless, to re-address some points, hopefully for the last time. </p>
<p>I enjoy reading your posts about Swarthmore, a school you obviously love. I am grateful for all that you have shared about Swarthmore, but I was disappointed with your characterization of Brown and criticism of its curriculum. Like Swarthmore, Brown is a wonderful institution where students can immerse themselves in their interests under the guidance of amazing faculty members and in the company of tremendously smart and talented classmates. </p>
<p>I have no idea what basis you have to state that Brown students are slackers and I take exception to your statement that I somehow pointed out that “the big losers are the excellent students at Brown who work diligently at a high level and have no way to distinguish themselves from slackers coasting their way to the same result...” Nothing could be farther from my feelings about Brown students.</p>
<p>Brown is very careful and deliberate in its admission decisions. It is also highly selective as you well probably know. A “typical” Brown student, if there is such a thing, is highly accomplished in many areas and has graduated at the top of the class at his/her high school. These are students not too different from Swarthmore students and the two schools share a great number of applicants and admitted students. My son received a wonderful education, both in and out of the classroom, and made some very deep friendships with amazing classmates with a wide range of interests. None were slackers and they were very much TYPICAL of the rest of the student body. Any student fortunate enough to have the privilege of spending four years in the Brown environment is a winner, not a loser.</p>
<p>You are a firm believer in Swarthmore’s curriculum. It is a fine curriculum, but it is not the only path to a great education. Referring to students, who attend an equally fine institution, as slackers, because their school has a different curriculum and philosophy is not very “Swarthmorean.” Brown’s curriculum and grade policy is rooted in the belief that when you remove grades and rigid prerequisites, students will pursue areas of study that they may not otherwise entertain and will bring a level of interest to a class that may be otherwise missing if he or she is there just to meet a core requirement. Some agree with this philosophy, others do not. I happen to believe in it, but recognize that there are other equally successful curricula.</p>
<p>You seem to have interchanged grading policies with grading rigor, but they are not one and the same. It is entirely possible to have a large number of A’s in a rigorous class if the level of interest in the subject matter is there. One of the things my son appreciated about his classes was that students were enrolled in them because they wanted to take the course, not because they “had” to take the course. Brown has a two-week shopping period that pretty much ensures that students stay in classes in which they really want to be. It is axiomatic that there is a vast difference in level of student interest and achievement when a student is in a class because he/she chooses to be in it.</p>
<p>You have taken issue with some random data about 1 in 5 students graduating from Brown without taking two math or science courses. Implicit in your statement seems to be the belief that these students may be graduating without basic math and science. I will note, however, that many students enter Brown having already mastered high level math and science courses. My son is part of the statistics that you have quoted. He took no math or science at Brown. He already had taken, with great success, Organic Chemistry and some pretty advanced Physics and Math courses as part of a very rigorous math/science IB curriculum (not the watered down IB version that has recently sprung around the country). His level of achievement in those areas, coupled with artistic talent, was in no doubt instrumental in getting him admitted to Brown. He took no math or science at Brown because he would have had to register for very advanced courses in disciplines that he had no interest pursuing further. Just because he did not take two more math/science courses did not make him any less educated or knowledgeable than someone taking two required basic courses in those disciplines at some other school.</p>
<p>Frankly, I do not understand why math and science are touted with such veneration, yet no outrage is expressed when many of our finer institutions of higher learning fail to deliver quality offerings and outstanding faculty in the arts. How many students graduate every year without ever having taken really great courses in drama, dance, music, visual arts, taught by amazing artists? But, I am digressing into one of my pet peeves with our system of education....</p>
<p>I do not want to belabor the point about grades at Brown, but if you look closely at Brown’s policy, you will see that letter grades are the default. Students have to opt for Credit/No Credit without a grade, or for extended explanation of their achievements, within two weeks of enrolling in class. In some disciplines, no letter grades are offered at all, mostly in the arts, because of a basic, and very sound belief, that artistic expression cannot really be graded. By the way, many of the best graduate programs in the arts follow a similar approach. Columbia’s MFA in creative writing, one the two premier programs in the nation, has absolutely no letter grading. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that motivated students do not need grades to pursue their intellectual or artistic endeavors. The majority of Brown students, like the majority of Swatties, are highly motivated and idealistic with perfectionist tendencies, if not obsessions. I bet you, that if we were to survey both schools, we would find a large number of perfectionists at both schools. (Tying the post to the thread somewhat...!) </p>
<p>I hope that being the thoughtful poster that you are, that you will reconsider your generalized statements about Brown students, if not, let us just agree to disagree.</p>
<p>I haven't really paid any attention to this thread, but I want to comment that, to my understanding, Swarthmore does not have a core curriculum, which is a specific course of study (UChicago and Columbia), but rather it has distribution requirements.</p>
<p>dramatica: I agree with you and tried to talk my boy into attending Brown for the reasons you state. I think he would learn more with the sword of Damocles over his head. </p>
<p>There certainly are many routes to a fine education. We live in a time in which it is not possible or one person to know everything as it was for the pre-Socratic Greeks. We must make choices, so something is always going unlearned.</p>
<p>Most students get to elite colleges having already taken fairly advanced math and science courses.</p>
<p>I never took math in college, but I now teach Chaos theory and fractals as well as Relativity theory to Humanities students. I pursued these interests on my own, free from the worry that a low grade would ruin my GPA and destroy my graduate school chances.</p>
<p>I agree that both Swat and Brown are excellent institutions and the perfect institution for the right student.</p>
<p>mythmom,</p>
<p>While working on his MFA at Columbia, my son took some courses at Barnard and spoke very highly about them. Please reassure your D that she is getting one of the finest education that anyone could hope for and remind her that the USWNR rankings were created to sell magazines and are total bull****. No one in academia respects them, although schools play the game because it brings in applicants. </p>
<p>Sad, sad commentary on our society's hang ups with "labels" and perceived "prestige."</p>
<p>dramatica:</p>
<p>While I am sure Brown is a fine school, their 1969 curriculum requirements and grading system combined with the recent grad inflation are ripe targets for lampooning. They know it. That's why they keep having ad hoc committees on curriculum and grading. *The median grade is an "A" (the highest grade available). A 4.0 * It's kind of hard to defend that grading system.</p>
<p>I would have a lot more respect for a principled stand if they were to just eliminate grades altogether.</p>
<p>I'm not saying people shouldn't go to Brown. I was simply reacting to the statement that elite schools don't just give grades away. Brown does. An "A" is the median grade and they have policy of not giving "Fs" or "Ds".</p>
<p>Math</a> 0090</p>
<p>Look at their homework, all book problems. Yeah, that is world class education when you're doing number 2, 3, 4 in each section. Each problem set is a joke. Their education system is a joke. 4 instructors use the SAME problem set. </p>
<p>Now look at the equivalent math course in Swartmore.<br>
Math</a> 15 home page
Ex: <a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cgrood1/hw2.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cgrood1/hw2.pdf</a></p>
<p>I can't believe someone can say with a straightface that a Brown education is really challenging.</p>
<p>Look, if it makes you feel good to make inane comparisons on entry level courses, go right ahead. I am not taking the bait.</p>
<p><3 you Middsmith, that you would perform such substantial research to sully the good name of Brown ("Brown is the color of poo!") and reveal it to be the sham of an institution it supposedly is.</p>
<p>Your assertions remind me of some Jeffs in Calc I and Intro Chem who are despairing under the burden of Cs and Ds because the professor won't stop assigning them problems like #101-130, instead of, say, "2, 3, 4..."</p>
<p>I still don't see what all the fuss is about, however.</p>
<p>An intellectually curious and passionate student would not need grades for motivation or as a gauge of self-worth</p>
<p>The only part of that I found troubling is that the lectures with the professor are optional and only the group classes with the TAs are required. But, that's just the nature of university teaching.</p>
<p>Precisely. Lectures for popular/technical classes are too large for any semblance of meaningful or deep discussion to take place. That, or professors simply regurgitate material that can easily be found in the textbook anyway. At universities, small TA sessions offer students personal opportunities to direct and maintain pertinent and stimulating intellectual discourse. Presumably.</p>
<p>But, then again, it doesn't matter because Brown is a UNIVERSITY.</p>
<p>♪ One of these things is not like the other ♪</p>
<p>
How else would you compare the two school academically? How do you explain FOUR instructors use the same problem set. None of them could come up with a problem outside of the textbook? </p>
<p>
But I'm not, which make my assertions objective. ;D</p>
<p>middsmith,</p>
<p>If you really believe that schools can be compared academically in the manner that you suggest, it is obvious that you are clueless.</p>