Pharmacy, then Engineering, back to Pharmacy...

Parents Forum
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<p>We started applications with S2 and thought we'd more or less finalized a list of colleges. One for pharmacy, two for sciences and the rest for engineering. Last night, S2 said he thinks he's better off studying pharmacy, since it's easier to come out of it if he changes his mind. He thinks attending an engineering school means he's stuck if he decides he doesn't like it. </p>

<p>Like most kids, he doesn't know what he wants to studying. He did well in AP Chem, thus pharmacy, but he also did well in Physics and will be taking Physics C this year. He is more practical than passionate and introverted to the point where if something doesn't involve or affect him, he doesn't give it attention. </p>

<p>I quizzed my local pharmacist who said if S2 is bright, he should look into Chemical Engineering. She also said both require the same chem classes the first two years anyway and that it's easier to come out of pharmacy than it is to try to get into it. S2 said chem engineering isn't as exciting as it sounds.</p>

<p>I guess we should just add more colleges for pharmacy and hope when acceptances come around, he'll have figured out which direction to go?</p>

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<p>Pharmacy priograms tend to be more difficult to get accepted to than engineering. I know a few students who applied to Pharmacy, and did not get in, and the university suggested Chemical Engineering as an alternative.</p>

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<p>Unless your son is looking at a 6 or 7 year direct-admit program, pharmacy is a graduate degree program (Pharm.D.) with a fairly standardized set of classes required for admission. While majoring in chemistry or biology is a common pathway to pharm school, one can major in just about anything so long as the pre-reqs are taken. </p>

<p>Since he’s already rejected the idea of ChemE, you and your son might want to look at the overlap between BME and pre-pharm requirements to see if that might be a possibility.</p>

<p>Admission to Pharm.D. programs is determined by GPA, PCAT score, LORs and [at some programs] pharmacy experience.</p>

<p>There have been a number of new pharm grad programs opening up in the past few years and admission, while still competitive, is not as competitive as it once was.</p>

<p><a href=“List of pharmacy schools - Wikipedia”>List of pharmacy schools - Wikipedia;

<p>If your son is undecided on pharmacy vs engineering, he might consider enrolling as undecided engineering major (one need not choose a engineering field until second or third semster of an engineering undergrad program) and see if that’s to his liking. If not he can switch out to a science or other major and still be in line to complete the pre-reqs for pharm school.</p>

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<p>S2 does not know many Chem E’s likely. I know a bunch of Chem E’s and they’re in fields as diverse and entertaining as it gets (automotive tribology, plasma, photocells, electronic component fabrication processes, pharmaceuticals, and the like).</p>

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<p>If his engineering field were to be ChemE/BME, the exhaustive list of classes he would take going into engineering that would be a “waste” to him if he decides to pursue Pharmacy after his first year will probably be:</p>

<p>1 Programming class
1-2 Math Classes</p>

<p>Not much to lose going in with the assumption of engineering really. Hell, he might even find the programming class useful. You never know.</p>

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<p>Question.</p>

<p>I always thought a Pharm Degree (read: Registered Pharmacist) was a four year thing. Now I get the impression that all Pharm degrees now require a PharmD Degree (read: 5 or 6 year Program). </p>

<p>Am I mistaken?</p>

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<p>They changed the Pharmacy requirements a while back. It used to usually be a bachelors degree in most states but now is more. Likewise with PT and OT. People our age (parents) are grandfathered in and can keep their jobs.</p>

<p>When looking for colleges consider major research schools, including state flagship schools, that have both Pharmacy and Engineering schools/colleges. Once he is in college he may change his mind to something completely different. His first year of college may be the deciding factor in choosing a field he hasn’t even learned about yet.</p>

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<p>Hey! I’m dealing with the same problem. I’m going to follow this post (: Great post!</p>

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<p>My cubemate’s kid was looking into pharmacy for the ‘guaranteed’ job and money (as per dad’s indication). His pharmaceutical quest kind of ended when he found out (a) pharmacy is 6 years (b) most schools charge a LOT more for the 4 year pharmacy program than they do for most majors and (c) the 4 year program involved 18-19 credits a semester + 4 summers (at DD1’s school, she’s not in pharmacy tho)</p>

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<p>Turbo: True, and more PharmD programs are moving to 7 years from 6 years. There were already 4+3 PharmD programs (BS and 3 years of Pharm grad school classes), but some of the 6 year programs (2 year undergrad, 1 year undergrad pharm classes and 3 year Pharm grad classes) are adding so many prerequisites that it’s getting close to needing an extra year. The grad level classes cost an arm and a leg compared to the undergrad classes, and the undergrad scholarships that a student may have been awarded are typically only for 4 years. The PharmD cost is therefore surprisingly high.
With the 6 year PharmD programs, typically the students don’t get an undergrad degree at all. If they change their mind in year 5, they could need to stay in college longer to get a degree (pharmaceutical science, biology or chemistry were the majors selected by the kids who washed out of S’s pharmacy school).</p>

<p>Other factors to consider is that engineering GPAs tend to be lower than other majors. This might hurt a student who plans to apply to PharmD programs, where higher GPAs are typically required for competitive admissions. My kid’s PharmD program announced a few years ago at his white coat ceremony that there had been more than 17 applications for each opening. I’ve heard that it’s even higher now. The GPAs tended to be 3.6 or higher, although S does know someone who had a 3.4 but a really high PCAT test score. </p>

<p>S has helped out with the interview days (interviews are required for admission into a PharmD program). He’s talked to the Professors who do interviewing, who have mentioned that they look for commitment to the profession and good communication skills (due to the focus on patient counseling).</p>

<p>The 4+3 programs add another year of college so they’re expensive with no guarantees of admission, but you do have a chance of getting a useful four year degree first. (One of S’s classmates had earned his 4-year degree before entering pharmacy school. He was a premed student, and kept applying to med school. He finally got accepted in year 2 of the PharmD program and switched to med school.)</p>

<p>I don’t know whether there are any 0-6 programs anymore. The ones that S looked at when he was applying have changed, and no longer offer guarantees to entering freshmen. Some pharmacy schools like UCONN, Toledo and Duquesne, also now offer admission only to their own undergraduate students. By offering admission only to their own undergrads, it potentially reduces the competition for admission but it also requires the students to make an institutional commitment sooner. There are some new pharmacy schools but there is a tough road to licensing for these schools. It isn’t clear how their graduates will fare in the job market or the licensing exams. </p>

<p>S is in one of the nationally ranked schools, and the students have been hearing that the job market for pharmacists is starting to slow for the first time in history. When S was admitted several years ago, they said that historically the school had 100% employment by the beginning of the last semester. They are now qualifying this, by saying that employment opportunities may be in less desirable parts of the country, retail, or may take a little time. Students are required to participate in lots of resume building activities as part of the program. </p>

<p>It has been surprising to me how many time-commitments are required for pharmacy that are outside the classroom. There are required guest lectures, clinical requirements, meetings, etc. </p>

<p>Typically AP classes for the prereqs are not given credit, and the student will have to retake the classes. I don’t quite understand the jargon, but I was told that there are different types of calculus and physics and that the AP classes do not necessarily cover the same types of material. </p>

<p>If pursuing a 4+3 or planning on applying to 2+4 schools, it’s important to review each school’s prereqs. As S learned, there is a wide variety of prereqs for pharmacy programs. It can be very difficult to meet prereqs for multiple schools in 2 years. </p>

<p>I may be wrong, but I got the impression that the PCAT is given a lot of weight. S met some students during his interviews who had much higher GPAs but lower PCAT scores, who were not admitted. S recommends that prospective pharm students study for the test, since it is a test that can be learned. </p>

<p>For what it’s worth, he also says that he hasn’t met anyone who was admitted to Pharm School who scored lower than mid-to high 600s on the Math SATs. As an undergrad he met a lot of pre-pharm students but calculus and organic chem were the weed-out classes for most of them. Organic chem, in particular, was the toughest class for many students since it’s a class that is taken with premed and other science students (especially if it’s graded on the curve). S had taken trig, not calculus, in high school. Don’t ask me how or why, but he loved organic chem. And Turbo is correct – the semesters require about 18-19 credits a semester, and there is no room for electives once you’re in the pharmacy program.</p>

<p>Hope this perspective is helpful to someone.</p>

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<p>At this point I’d be seriously looking into Chem E with probably an MSChE with focus on pharma manufacturing (assuming, of course, that jobs with the US Pharma industry will continue to be around for a while - not a solid assumption :)).</p>

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<p>Pharmacy student here that is willing to answer any specific question that you have! (Background: Been in a 0-6 program for several years, worked in the pharmaceutical industry during the summer in various roles and companies)</p>

<p>Also wanted to note that there are several types of pharmacy schools available:<br>

  1. 0-6 Programs = You are accepted out of high school and are automatically admitted into the pharmacy school after 2 years of undergraduate study as long as you meet certain requirements
  2. 2+4 Programs = After 2 years of undergraduate study, you apply to the pharmacy school at the institution (typically GPA, interviews, letters of rec, etc. are considered)
  3. BS Only Programs = You must have a BS degree in order to apply into the pharmacy program so essentially 4 years undergraduate + 4 years graduate (pharmacy) school</p>

<p>There are <5 0-6 programs available in this country, more 2+4 programs, and a lot of BS only programs in the country. If pharmacy is the route that you intend to pursue, 0-6 or 2+4 really is an excellent deal. </p>

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<p>There is nearly NO overlap between pharmacy and engineering. The only classes that a pharmacy student could take that would possibly overlap with engineering are: biology, chemistry, physics, organic chemistry. Unfortunately, outside of a few engineerings (ie ChemE), there is nearly no overlap between pharmacy and engineering. </p>

<p>In addition to this, pharmacists at my school (and most others) typically take different chemistry and physics classes from engineers. Ex. There is a pre-med physics and then there is an engineering physics.</p>

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<p>I know there’s some 6 year Pharmacy thing at Michigan. Which one is it? Do you know?</p>

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<p>2+4 i believe</p>

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<p>Great info Neon. In CA, UOP and USC still have special programs out of HS. Otherwise it’s pretty much takes at least a degree to get an interview.<br>
Too many schools adding pharmacy just to bring in income for schools, IMHO :)</p>

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<p>How much does pharmacy school cost for like 0-6 school a year on average?</p>

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<p>And do schools cover all the expenses for you if you are low income?</p>

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<p>Cost depends on type of school just like any other college (private vs public)</p>

<p>Financial aid depends on the same factors as any other financial aid …</p>

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<p>Thank you all for the wonderful, detailed and informative responses! I did some searching on College Confidential and came across past posts. There seems to be a debate whether 0-6 is better than 4+2 (or 2+4, still a bit confused on that), that the latter is more respected, possibly due to the PCAT. </p>

<p>As of right now, the only pharmacy programs not too far from home (we’re Northeast) are St. John’s University in Queens, NY and Rutgers University in NJ. Albany College of Pharmacy and Philadelphia College of Pharmacy are also possibilities, but again, there’s a debate on whether it’s harder to get into the latter, and that merit aid is all, but non-existent. We’re still researching, though.</p>

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<p>I’d suggest being cautious about Philadelphia and Albany. An important question to ask is the percentage of students admitted as prepharm who actually graduate from the school of pharmacy. If they say they don’t have that statistic, ask how many prepharm students are admitted in the first year and then look at the number of pharmacy graduates. You’ll want to ask if there’s a preference for students of the school for slots in the pharmacy program. At my kid’s school, there was an entire orientation session with >100 kids for prepharm. Ultimately he counted only 5 that were accepted into the school of pharmacy (there was no preference for its own prepharm students), with the balance of the class consisting of transferees or applicants with B.S. degrees. </p>

<p>A lot of frustrated premed students who didn’t get into med school and kids with chemistry degrees who discover there aren’t enough jobs turn to pharmacy. They’re all in the candidate pool. Getting invited for the mandatory interviews is a big deal. Getting invited for an interview does not guarantee admission. According to the pharmacy boards on the student doctor site, about 50-75% of interviewees get accepted.</p>

<p>I also suggest reading student reviews of colleges at the college review sites, which can be an eye-opener for some of the science schools. I also suggest asking if the prepharm classes are graded on a curve. It can be a real eye opener for students to discover that getting 85% on an exam can earn them a C if they need a B average to move on in the program. </p>

<p>0-6 Admitted as a pharmacy student as a freshman, and allowed to move up in the program as long as requirements (including grades) are met. It’s harder & harder to find 0-6 programs anymore.</p>

<p>2+4 Two years of prepharm requirements (or 3+4 years, depending on how many prerequisites are required) and then students apply to the pharmacy program. Typically requires a PCAT. Once admitted, the third year may still be considered to be undergraduate work so you get to pay undergraduate tuition. This changes in years 4-6, which are charged graduate tuition. Expect sticker shock to kick in. It’s difficult to cast a wide net and apply to a lot of 2+4 schools, since prereqs vary. Some schools restrict applications to their own undergrads too.</p>

<p>4+3 Some pharmacy schools like U-Washington require an undergraduate degree for admission, along with the PCAT. This seems to be the trend.</p>

<p>If your S is not 100% positive about his major, he might be happier at a school with a wider variety of majors and more of a college experience in case he decides pharmacy isn’t the right track after all. </p>

<p>I’ve heard that St. John Fisher (I may be misspelling it) is one of the easiest pharmacy schools in your region, so you might add it to your list as a safety. I believe Thomas Jefferson has a relatively new school, which could be another safety. You might also consider adding Temple to your list. Of course, there’s SUNY Buffalo too which is a top 15 ranked school in the nation according to US News and World Report.</p>