<p>Actor12, I agree with what you said above, except for the word “endorses.” I don’t think it is an endorsement to do workshops at various places. Many theatre professionals do workshops, and one of the ones I know says he does it because he knows the kids are getting lousy training at their schools and he wants to raise them up a bit.</p>
<p>There’s a quote from her recommending the coach right on her website. Looks like now we need to define “endorse” and “coach”. Ugh!</p>
<p>I know I said I had made my last comment, but subsequent comments made me find a need to set the record straight once again.
Yes, students of Mary Anna’s are able to participate in Moonifieds at which they get to audition for some schools. (remember many of these just serve as in-person prescreens) However, it is incorrect to say that this is a secret. Several of the colleges who participate do in fact have the dates for Moonifieds listed on their websites. Viterbo is one I can think of off the top of my head that clearly lists “Moonifieds”. Another school, Marymount Manhattan, lists it as “Dallas auditions”. Nobody has ever tried to make it a secret.
Re: private auditions in general - Moo’s students are by no means the only students granted this opportunity. Students at schools like Interlochen, Walnut Hill, Pebblebrook, Booker T. and many others all have auditions with colleges that are arranged by their teachers/coaches and are available only to students at that school. To say Moo is the only one to hold private auditions with these colleges is just false.
Additionally, there are a whole host of thespian festivals and summer programs like the Dallas Summer Musicals, where colleges hold official auditions for a fee. The International Thespian Convention in Lincoln Nebraska has paid college auditions as does the North Texas Drama Auditions. Also at some programs like The Performing Arts Project, some colleges use that as a prescreen audition. I am not sure how you suggest that these opportunities afforded only to a select group of students is any different than Moonifieds.
Think of it this way: Moonifieds is just one stop for these schools on their year-long college recruitment tour. None of the colleges list every single place they visit on their website, particularly if that visit is not open to the public. Why would they list a visit to Interlochen if it were only open to Interlochen students? They wouldn’t, and they don’'t.
The point is, the colleges are doing nothing wrong by holding auditions at Moonifieds or any other private audition. They are using their time and money wisely by going to places they know where there is a strong population of kids who are interested in their school and in whom they might be interested. It only makes good business sense to hold auditions at these places.<br>
There are many different places at which one can audition throughout the country throughout the year. We all have the opportunity to figure out which auditions best fit our schedules and budgets. And it is up to us to seek out the opportunities that work best for our families. If that includes hiring a coach and getting to participate in Moonifieds, that is great for you. If it doesn’t, there are many great opportunities as listed above, for you to audition with these programs. Find what works best for you.</p>
<p>Mommy5, I think you nailed it:</p>
<p>“But I don’t think it is about money for Barbara. I think it is about guaranteeing her notable program continues.”</p>
<p>Someone else (I think glassharmonica?) alluded to the NCAA athletic recruiting system and I definitely see the analogy.</p>
<p>My younger D (and full disclosure, my older D did not audition for CMU or use a professional coach when we went through this process for straight acting several years ago but I find this discussion fascinating), anyway, my younger D plays club lacrosse, as well as varsity lacrosse at her school. Club lacrosse involves playing at a bunch of tournaments where college coaches come see these kids play. Her varsity coach made a comment about the club teams serving the college coaches as much as the kids. And it clicked. That is the same thing here. Certain professional audition coaching programs (and arts schools) are going to attract and cultivate a certain level of talent that they are going to make sure get in front of top theater programs. The programs know that if the coach is promoting a particular kid to them that kid is likely to have what it takes and will make sure they take a look. The rest is up to the kid.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean every kid getting a coach is the best, or that non-coached kids don’t have a shot. But it is one part of the system and one that everyone participating should be aware of. I think greater transparency would forestall many of the concerns expressed on these threads. </p>
<p>In many ways these kids really are like recruited athletes. I’m not saying we need a similar governing body or that the NCAA rules are perfect (when sophomore girls and boys are making verbal committments to colleges there is probably something amiss in the system). But I do think there is a huge similarity in the kind of investments families can make in these kids and the benefit the kids provide to the system of coaches and schools. And believe me, there are forums devoted to college lacrosse recruiting just like this one.</p>
<p>I have learned that Barbara has said publicly that their statement about how auditionees “should not be coached” is not entirely accurate and should come off their website. </p>
<p>I think it best to be silent on the issue myself if I were CMU or any school.</p>
<p>It is almost impossible to avoid conflict of interest or the appearance of conflict of interest in the theatre industry as I have stated before.</p>
<p>Most of these professors are out to compete and recruit the best students they can find while promoting the programs they represent. They simply don’t want to miss seeing anyone.</p>
<p>I understand the recruited athletes analogy and would have used it myself if I knew anything about sports. But I have never heard of try-out days where hundreds of high school lacrosse players, or basketball players, or swimmers descend on a campus and pay a fee to try to compete with the coaches picks. Does this happen? Maybe it does.</p>
<p>All this high-level coaching stuff is still fairly new and growing fast. It’s great for the coaches and the students in the loop. But not so good for rest of the pack who finds out about it after auditions are done.</p>
<p>No maybe not so good. But students get in without coaching too. For us, it was just access to additional information.</p>
<p>I first stumbled onto CC while searching the internet for something upcoming about college auditions. And once you are on here, well there is months of reading and research available. No one told me about CC till later and then I had already spent several hours on it. Plenty on here about coaches, I think, including this discussion of course.</p>
<p>After I first heard about Mary Anna, I went on her website and ordered the book for $15. I am a reader and researcher. While much in the book is common to all theatre auditions, there was information about college auditioning that was new to me. And there was insight about how to think about the schools, not to fall in love til acceptance, the safety, fit, and reach thing was new to me even if Mary Anna didn’t invent it.</p>
<p>So, we bought in. Still happy.</p>
<p>I do believe the high school athlete analogy works. We all know there is a level of competition that can come into play even when negotiating scholarships depending on who else wants you and how much they are giving you. Exactly like sports, but not quite at the level of money. Less at stake for school since national television contracts and exposure isn’t involved in the musical theatre programs.</p>
<p>This isn’t like the school play and everyone signs up and auditions one day. College program reputations are at stake and they want the best “fits” for their program. Auditions are handled numerous ways. As vvnstar said, there are performing arts high schools that have invited colleges to audition their students. A local theatre education group in our area invited 6 colleges in to pre-screen 15 students. These colleges are recruiting and competing. The people who are really asleep at the wheel, I think someone said earlier, are the high school guidance counselors. They do not have a clue what is going on here. I am certain there was no class in their college curriculum telling them about it. </p>
<p>My son had a private audition recently at a school because he was unable to attend the regular audition due to snow and weather cancellation. I am willing to bet he got more attention and time than others prior. Did we plan it? No. Was it because we had a coach? No. It was because I got on the phone and the email and worked it out. And thank God, one faculty member had pre-screened him at Moonifieds and said, we should see this kid. Unfair to others. No. It would have been unfair if we were unable to audition due to snow and flight cancellation beyond our control. We were persistent and tenacious. It took three weeks to get there. Yet, if they had said, no we cannot reschedule, we would have said, that’s life, its not meant to be, there you are. Because life sometimes is not fair. Weather and schedules happen. </p>
<p>We could not attend Unifieds. Our son’s high school musical fell on top of it. We were crushed. And I realized we would be attending lots of campus auditions and paying a lot of money, frankly money we did not have, in traveling. Mary Anna’s Moonifieds saved us. My son auditioned for five schools there. Two were final auditions. Three were pre-screens only and still required campus visits, two of which we were able to make.</p>
<p>So I am grateful, happy and satisfied. The information is out there. I am sorry parents and students did not find out about coaches, but it is not a secret. As Flossy says, its new and growing fast. The BFA MT programs are a phenonomen that have exploded over the past two decades. Cottage industry. New programs are still cropping up like Texas State and Rider in the past couple of years.</p>
<p>Do walk-on athletes pay a fee to try-out against the recruited athletes? I don’t know. Today there are fees for everything. In the BFA MT world, they pay for accompanists, the paperwork, travel (if applicable,) etc. and probably act as a deterrent to prevent thousands auditioning everywhere.</p>
<p>The phone calls are over this year. Lets put a stake in this thread.</p>
<p>Congratulations, by the way. And good job!</p>
<p>I’m the one who posted the comments about athletic recruitment. I think the difference between NCAA and MT/theater is the lack of a common understanding about the “rules,” if any. The NCAA system isn’t perfect and as we all know is subject to abuse, but at least families and schools know where to look for guidance; boundaries are set with an eye toward clear and consistent ethical standards. Identifying and publishing an ethical code for artistic recruitment might not be a bad idea. </p>
<p>I join with Flossy and others in sending sincere congratulations to everyone who has taken on this stressful and sometimes scary path to college, and to the kids and parents who have prepared and given it their all. And I have loved these conversations, which I see as genuinely intelligent exchanges of ideas. What a thoughtful, caring group of parents! And what courageous kids we have.</p>
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<p>Congrats on your success, greyhairedman (sincerely!) but I do want to correct your misconception that other parents did not research or “find out about coaches.” Personally, I’m an excellent researcher with a background in journalism. I know that the other parents who have argued similarly are lawyers and academics. Like you, we are good researchers. 
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<p>I read “Moo’s” book years ago, after reading about it here on CC, and also had my daughter working, for two years, with two private acting teachers, one of whom coached her auditions. I did not consider Ms. Dennard’s services because of the reasons stated earlier, and also because I was able to have my daughter working in regular one-on-one lessons with her teachers… and my daughter did attend the CMU summer program. In the end, CMU was not her dream school for various reasons. I respect the program and have no sour grapes towards the school. But I stand by my criticisms of the relationship between their admissions staff and the private, for-profit business. </p>
<p>Please don’t brush off this criticism as matter of jealousy or ignorance. And congrats on your son’s acceptance. I’m sure I speak for others in being very happy for family.</p>
<p>I’m going to address something really quickly since i’ve been quiet about this. I think what the school actually means by “coaching”, is that they don’t want the pieces so rehearsed to death by someone that the kids are unwilling to quickly take direction and change something spur of the moment. I’m not sure it necessarily means any coach in particular. Coaching can be great for various reasons and DEATHLY to actors. The school is looking for organic and creative stuff to happen in the room, they want to see the STUDENT and not their overly rehearsed/overly gesticulated Voila from 12th night monologue.</p>
<p>I just want to add that, had I known about Moo’s classes, I most certainly would have signed on for them for my S. I, like some other’s on here, researched the internet to death, but really never came across the info. Maybe I never put in “coaching”. It may have come up then. Also to the person talking about the counselors not knowing anything about how to help a MT major pick and prepare for college…nothing !! No clue. Didn’t even try to get information from them. Also, a prominent MT professor dissuaded students and their parents from perusing on CC. My son asked me not to go on as told them not too. So I did stay off for a while. Probably could have learned some things. It’s unfortunate to be finding out about all the missed opportunities after the fact, but feel incredibly proud of my S for getting in on his own. Even though I would have loved the opportunity to have given him a little extra exposure ! I say, good for the parents who knew where to look and took the opportunity ! Why not !</p>
<p>Please – robinsings – not one person on this thread has said that parents should not research and look for every opportunity. Indeed, not one person is criticizing anyone for using Moo’s classes. The criticism is directed entirely at CMU. I don’t get why all these parents are being defensive when no one is criticizing them for using her services.</p>
<p>What I find strange is that this entire discussion is centered in CMU. Why not Pace or Texas State or all the other schools who do this as well? Why is this discussion here? Why not a general forum conversation? </p>
<p>The NCAA comparison is a very good one. Flossy, yes there are events where athletes pay to have coaches see them all in one place. My younger daughter, was recruited as a Division I Cross Country/Track athlete. She ran for her club team as well as her HS team and we paid to attend many of the most competitive meets so she can be seen by coaches and have the level of competition to help with recruitment. It’s very similar to this process. </p>
<p>It’s easy to cry foul and feel that in some way our kids may have not had a fair advantage. But if you truly think any program is going to take someone not talented just to appease a coach, you have got to be kidding. Especially schools who just take a handful of students. They want the best for their program, the best fit. However those students come to them, they still have to have the talent, the look and all the attributes the school is looking for in their new class. </p>
<p>This is such a stressful time…I remember it well. I certainly wish all of your kids lots of luck and success in whatever school they end up in. There are many great programs out there!</p>
<p>Wow, this is complicated and so easily misunderstood! I’m not sure that attending events to be seen by coaches as an athlete and then recruited is quite the same as hundreds of kids later competing with the recruits at the college. And coach is not the same as connected coach, either. I certainly don’t fault anyone for using this coach. Yeah you! And I know people get in without using her. Yeah you, too! And I expect this whole business is moving in the direction of auditioning for top coaches and being told, “close but no cigar, try these other schools”. There are plenty of other schools and there are also people who apparently got the memo about which ones to avoid but right now it’s all very murky.</p>
<p>This is a very interesting topic, and before I go on I want to stress that I am in no way ‘jealous’ of students who have hired coaches, and that I also believe a good coach can give you an edge and teach you a great deal (this seems obvious). Yes, you risk being ‘overcoached,’ but a good coach will avoid that. And huge congrats to anyone’s success.</p>
<p>That said, I believe there are ethical issues here that people are maybe missing? And I’m NOT accusing anyone who uses coaches!–only trying to raise this issue for <em>colleges</em> to consider. This is not about CMU; this is about other BFA programs too, but not all. </p>
<p>I think it has to do with the fact that BFA programs are in their infancy, and have been growing rapidly this past decade or two. Now that there is big money in the ‘industry’ (getting into a program), I believe colleges need to rethink how they handle the process.</p>
<p>First, I don’t see how colleges can justify holding private auditions for pay. No matter how you dress it up - ‘they say it’s in Dallas on their website’ or ‘they also give auditions at wealthy private schools too’ - there is no getting around that people with money and insider knowledge have a insider access to these schools, which is particularly concerning since the admission rate is so low, below Ivy levels. </p>
<p>Someone posted, "It only makes good business sense to hold auditions at these places. " Well, it may make good business sense but schools are not businesses. They are funded in part by taxpayer’s money, receive loans from the government, and their mission (hopefully) is not to earn a profit for their CEO. </p>
<p>By statistically selecting for wealthy students, the colleges bely their claim that they are searching for ‘talent.’ Unlike academics which is indeed correlated with socioeconomics (which is unfair but that’s another topic), ‘talent’ is more certainly not correlated with wealth or social standing or race. So by giving ‘wink wink’ status to insider coaches, the colleges are recruiting an artificially higher proportion of wealthy people (statistically), as well as a higher proportion of insider cultures who are computer savvy, are well connected, etc. In this way they decrease their own chances of having the best ‘talent’, from any socioeconomic group – if that is truly what they are after. I know Ms Dennard tries to correct that personally by offering a scholarship for students who are talented but not well off, which is very generous of her. But colleges shouldn’t put her in the position of this. I think if colleges expect a level of highly polished, sophisticated auditions and a mature self awareness of type that can best be gotten by good coaching (despite what CMU claims), then there should be FAR more public awareness of what it takes to get in. Right now, only insiders know. Since that is by word of mouth, you get lopsided representation of race and class. To give an example, everyone knows that if you want to get into Juilliard as a musician, you have to start very young with intensive training. Juilliard doesn’t hide this. It has outreach programs, as well. That doesn’t even things out - you still have a leg up if you’re wealthy - but at least there’s an active attempt to search out talent where ever it is.</p>
<p>This is true for academics too (insider private schools, legacies, etc)–but at least in that case there is an open discussion about it, the top colleges actively go out of their way to sponsor under-represented minorities and need based grants for diversity, and they often have programs with impoverished public schools with mentors and programs like Questbridge etc. I don’t think this can be said for the BFA programs. </p>
<p>As far as athletes, my youngest is an athlete. Yes, there are conferences in which you pay a great deal of money to be seen. But we don’t. Because colleges ALSO visit PUBLIC high schools and public programs. My son has been playing in ‘elite’ sports through public inexpensive programs, and has already been recognized by college coaches. </p>
<p>Anyway, again, I do want to stress that I think it’s perfectly fine for folks to give their kids an edge. A good coach can be marvelous. My comment is more directed at some BFA programs themselves - not all - and their lack of transparency in the process.</p>
<p>This is not about jealousy, sour grapes or missed opportunity for me and many others writing on this thread. Glassharmonica summed it up for me. My daughter had zero interest in CMU or other conservatory style programs. She got into her first choice, dream school, NYU. And has happily been a freshman there all year. I have been reading this thread with interest because I do think what CMU does is unethical. Not MAD, not the parents , not the kids. And I guess I’m surprised that everyone can’t agree.
I wrote earlier that I do believe it is necessarily about the money, but it is does not change the fact that it is unethical. </p>
<p>And concerning the “no coaching” comments on the website. No coaching means no coaching. Period. ( thank you glassharmonica once again) do you actually think a 17 year old in high school is supposed to read that and take away any other meaning? C’mon.</p>
<p>^ I crossed posts with connections. Good post!</p>
<p>Quick addition - you can get scholarships for these coaches. Mary Anna coaches kids who show promise, talent and are from lower income families. So it is not just for the wealthy. And we are certainly not wealthy. Plain old middle class.</p>
<p>Perhaps the moderator can move this to the main forum?</p>
<p>Just want to clear one thing up that I have first-hand knowledge about. My D attends one of the private PA schools mentioned earlier and there are absolutely no private theatre/MT auditions by colleges at her school. Don’t know about any of the other PA schools </p>
<p>Sent from my DROID BIONIC using CC</p>