Planning WAY ahead?

Parents Forum
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<p>Right after I opened this thread, snapple05 wrote, "For me, my parents have never really said 'Today we're going to find you a college.' Instead, as we travelled on family vacations we would perhaps walk around a college campus and if it interested me, sit in on an info session."</p>

<p>This I find very interesting, because I can hardly think of any local examples of people who do this kind of thing. I think it is a good idea, but it's not something that my parents did at all, or any other parents in their generation in my community when I was growing up, as far as I am aware. I happened to be born on the campus of State U. in my town (where my mom worked as a nurse) and later had occasion to visit the campus for various reasons, but off-hand I can't recall visiting any other college campus when I was a kid. (I was on the campus of another State U. in a neighboring state when a relative was attending graduate school there, but that was to visit the relative, not to visit that campus.) </p>

<p>"That started when I was in eighth grade perhaps (about thirteen?), and I've had a pretty solid idea of knowing where I will apply for a year or so. However, my first choice school wasn't my original first choice, and it's funny for me to even imagine that I had at one point dreamed of such a different school." </p>

<p>I DEFINITELY want to be open to the idea that my children's minds will change, perhaps repeatedly and radically, about the issue of where to go to college. I read a magazine article about a particular hard-to-get-into college (one of the CC top 25 universities) when I was a kid, and so for a long time I desired to go there. But I had never, ever been to that state until years after I graduated from State U., and in high school I really had no idea whatever what kind of student that college was looking for. I settled on applying only to State U. based mostly on the issue of list price--which today I don't think is a very sensible way to choose a college. </p>

<p>"So, take whatever dreams your son has at the moment and do whatever's possible to foster them." </p>

<p>My oldest son's dreams today consist of pursuing certain learning goals, and of developing friendship networks (in person and online) with young people who share some of his subject-matter passions. I foster those dreams. I have been taking him to college information sessions (put on by the usual top colleges that tour the country) in our town for the past month, and that will be enough of that for a few years, I think. He has plenty to keep him busy and learning for the next few years. </p>

<p>When I was still childless I had frequent occasion to travel on business to all of the famous colleges in the United States. Now it's been years since I've been to any of those campuses, and I have no idea when I can even take a family vacation, because my dad (my son's grandfather) has a spinal cord injury and has been paralyzed for almost three years and I hardly dare leave town for long trips. There is somewhat of a possibility that my son may attend summer programs in various parts of the country that include college tours as part of their programs, but that's iffy too. So we may never have opportunity to gather information as assiduously as your family did before my son gets to be of the age to apply somewhere. When he does apply, it will be up to him where to apply. </p>

<p>Aside to the thread: I see I used the term "dream" school in my first post, and several replies picked up on that term. To be clear, my son isn't dreaming about ANY college today, but I used the term as a synonym for what some posters here call a "lottery ticket" college. I know how to get into State U.--I did that myself years ago, and so did my wife--but I don't know much about the process involved in getting into more selective schools. I used "dream" school to refer to a category of schools, some of which might be educationally beneficial for my child, that are hard enough to get into that an onlooker might say, "You're dreaming if you think you will get into that school." :) Applying to such a school is not a sure thing, and everyone needs a plan B. But if a dream school has a strong program in an area in which my child is passionately interested, I might just as well become better informed about what one does to apply to such a school, if my child chooses to apply to one. </p>

<p>I'll reply to the other interesting replies in this thread gradually now that I am over my recent nasty cold. Thanks for any additional comments anyone has.</p>

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<p>Tokenadult:</p>

<p>If you happen to be traveling to certain towns and cities, it is a good idea to tour the local college (s). Keep in mind, though, that a 12-year old may feel totally overwhelmed by a large campus, but a 17-year old may not. Over just the last few months, my S has decided that he prefers an urban to a suburban campus. He had expressed no such preference last spring. He was bowled over by a college last spring that now does not figure on his list of colleges to which he is applying.<br>
At this point, unless you think your 12-year old will be applying to colleges within the next couple of years, there is little point in sitting in on info sessions; most of them are devoted to walking you through the application process. You can get as much information as you need at this point by perusing the websites of various "dream" colleges regarding the appropriate preparation, range of SATS and GPAs, whether they accept ACT instead of SAT, etc... colleges. I would attend info sessions in earnest the year before your child is ready to apply to colleges. The information will be more fresh and relevant and more easily retained as a result. The one thing to keep in mind at this point is the timing of tests such as APs and SAT-IIs.
Since your child is strong in math/science, it is worth trying to project where he will be academically by the time he is ready to apply to colleges. Will he need to be at a research university with graduate courses in his areas of interest? That will eliminate a lot of top-notch LACs, and help you focus on some mid-size research universities as well as larger public universities.</p>

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<p>Back on October 16, homeschoolmom wrote, "Encouraging a love of reading, writing, and problem-solving should serve any child well, whether he is going to go to college or not."</p>

<p>Hear. Hear. Encouraging a love of reading, fortunately, comes easily in our family, where the decorating scheme in most homes consists of bookshelves covering every square inch of available wall space. (We have maps up on the stairway walls, where bookshelves don't fit.) Writing here consists mostly of science-fiction stories and personal letters--I will try to encourage an increase in the quantity of both over the next few years--and problem-solving involves dozens of math problems a week, and also Lego construction problems and Logo computer programming problems. A really good book on physics problem-solving, by the way, is the funny book The Chicken from Minsk, which we got from our friendly public library. </p>

<p>"Look for opportunities for your child to contribute to his community in joyful and vibrant collaborations with others (not because it will 'look good on an application,' but because learning how to work with others toward a common goal can be a key to lifelong happiness.)"</p>

<p>Or serve others just because it is the right thing to do. Our three years of residence overseas was occasioned by my desire to work in the nonprofit sector in a gritty urban neighborhood of a recently "third world" country. Since we've been back in the United States, our homeschooling support group has arranged various service projects, not because anyone is recording them for future college applications, but just because most of us parents in the group do this kind of thing as a matter of personal conviction. </p>

<p>"Help him discover the satisfaction that comes from hard and meaningful work of his own choosing." </p>

<p>Your choice of the adjective "hard" there explains why we homeschool. The public schools here don't give all kids an opportunity to meet high levels of challenge. And of course, as anyone with a screenname like homeschoolmom well knows, homeschooling allows us to let our kids concentrate particularly on the areas of their choosing. For my oldest son, that has been mathematics, the purer the better, for about half his lifetime now. There is some chance that he may eventually find computer programming more captivating than math as such. Or he may go into one of several areas of pure or applied science research. But all the time, every day, he can serve up challenges for himself as hard as he can take them. That is a good bit more satisfying for him than what I did at the same age in school was for me. </p>

<p>"Give him the chance to meet lots of interesting people in your community who might inspire and challenge him."</p>

<p>A benefit of homeschooling that I don't see emphasized quite enough in the standard sources is the chance to meet adults, in great variety, whose occupations are not schoolteaching and bus-driving. My children are still acquainted with a variety of current and former schoolteachers, but they also get to meet musicians, engineers, mathematicians, computer programmers, artists, business owners, and many other kinds of adults that I hardly knew at the same age. </p>

<p>The point is well made in your reply, homeschoolmom, and I think well taken, that it isn't strictly necessary to go to college at all to have a meaningful career. It happens that the overwhelmingly commonplace career path in pure mathematics does lead through college--even for the two unusual examples you mentioned--but what I enjoy about homeschooling is the opportunity to think about how to learn in whatever environment is at hand--whether that environment is inside school walls or not.</p>

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<p>Why on earth would anyone consider spending vacation time touring college campuses with a 12 year old? My kid was sick of touring after 8 campuses at the age of 17! You know what, not EVERYTHING has to be done earlier and earlier in life. I would think one of the big advantages to homeschooling would be that you can go into greater depth with things that your child is doing at the time. </p>

<p>It is OK to save some stuff for age-appropriate times of life. It's what keeps life interesting. You don't have to be a bird watcher at 6, traveled the world by age 7, or a classic music aficionado at age 8. Consider you (and your child) don't want to be sick of the whole college thing too long before you need to be!!!</p>

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<p>weenie asked, "Why on earth would anyone consider spending vacation time touring college campuses with a 12 year old?"</p>

<p>This is not something I have ever done myself, so I can't speak to anyone else's reasons for doing so. As I noted earlier in this thread, these days I don't take vacations AT ALL, because I have a quadriplegic parent who isn't in my round-the-clock care, but who may not need round-the-clock care PRONTO if the caregiving relative also falls ill. </p>

<p>That being said, the very first reply to this thread was by a young person who did have the experience of touring colleges when young on family vacations, and who apparently thought that experience was beneficial. That's a new idea to me, but it doesn't seem like a bad idea based on that forum participant's report. As with many other things, it may be that such experiences are more enjoyable and less off-putting when they are done "just for fun" than when they are done at college-applying age, which is full of pressure. </p>

<p>I would also note that some colleges are just plain interesting to visit, as I discovered when I visited them on business trips. Harvard's campus has art museums with astoundingly copious collections, and most college campuses have pleasant places to stroll and overhear the conversations of bright young people. My strong preference in leisure travel (not manifested for a LONG time) is to visit non-Western, non-English-speaking countries, but in those places too college campuses can be all-right places to visit.</p>

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<p>Sorry, but I still think if you get on a vacation (and I hope you do eventually) try a beach, or hiking in the mountains together, or touring a fun big city. My point was that if your kid (or you!) gets tired of it too early it takes away from the experience later on. BTW, visiting a college museum or attending a college cultural event is not the same as taking the admissions tour and info session!</p>

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<p>Back on October 16, usmominuk wrote, "I wish I had started thinking about D's college choices earlier; because of our situation (me being American in our British household) she is depending on me to know things about the US system that I'm now finding out very late."</p>

<p>We have a somewhat similar situation in that my wife is a first-generation immigrant, so she has no experiential knowledge of the United States school system. And I feel that I lack knowledge I ought to have (hence my visits to this CC board) about colleges other than the state university across town, which is where both my wife and I received our college degrees. </p>

<p>Further along usmominuk wrote, "So I guess that without in any way taking the process away from your child or shortening his childhood, you could try to help him to really take on board as early as possible that there are consequences as well as choices for how you spend your time." </p>

<p>Maybe that's another way of saying that a parent's choice to keep things from being too early ALSO has consequences for a child, just as being too early may. I think it is important for a child to know himself, and to figure out whether what is "fun" includes intellectual challenge and a brand-new social environment. In my son's case, State U. will be a familiar environment (he already takes an accelerated math program for secondary students there) and thus our question is simply whether he might be able to find more of HIS kind of personal satisfaction somewhere else. Going somewhere else may not be possible, when the year to apply comes, unless we are aware of what a suitable degree of preparation beforehand is. </p>

<p>By the way, what has occasioned your long-term residence in the UK? I would go back overseas in a heartbeat, but feel constrained now to stay in the States lest my dad's caregiver become unable to care for him.</p>

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<p>I'd feel terribly silly going to an "info session" with a 12 year old!! And if yer just walkin' around what the hell are you accomplishing? Take em to the beach, a museum or a park for God's sake!</p>

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<p>I admit I have taken a vacation with my 13 yr old and her 14 yr old best friend during midwinter break to visit a college. But we were visiting her sister, and we were doing it more to get out during break than look at the school.
( It was a great trip, my daughter was soo different with her friend around that she was a new girl- the weather in Portland was also amazingly different than Seattle. Cold rainy in Seattle, but walking from the train to our hotel I had to take my coat off , it was so warm and sunny and this was February!)</p>

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<p>While there may be the rare child who thoroughly enjoys touring colleges at a young age, you have to be aware of the fact that setting up a child to have a "dream school" (which is more likely your dream school - a frequent pitfall of those of us who just shuffled off to the local state U.) can limit a child's opportunities for self discovery and lead to terrible disappointment down the road. I think it is a much better approach overall to encourage any high school junior or senior to think in terms of at least 3 or 4 schools as their dream environments. You also have to be realistic about the very high level of transfers students in college. Many kids, in spite of LOTS of legwork, aren't happy with their first choice - and that's OK! My best friend's daughter (a super organized, high achievement kid) toured 19 colleges, inteviewed at most of them, chose her dream school, got in, transferred out the next year. I don't think it's that uncommon. So, be real.</p>

<p>I wish I could find an article that was in the NY Times last April. Now it is in archives and has to be purchased. It is at <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F3081EF6355F0C768EDDAD0894DC404482&incamp=archive:search%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F3081EF6355F0C768EDDAD0894DC404482&incamp=archive:search&lt;/a>. It is an absolutely fabulous story about the college search for this woman's older sister. Maybe I'll buy it and get permission to reprint it.</p>

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<p>Tokenadult....
I cannot say that what felt right for me would be what you should do. For me, however, age 12 is very young to be looking into particular colleges. We started that process at the start of junior year in high school. That worked for us at a good pace. </p>

<p>What I think IS appropriate for a child your son's age is to start thinking about long term goals and the bigger picture. Choices that are made the next five years affect what possibilities might be opened up when it comes time to apply to college. So, you might discuss with your child where he wants to be in five years. If he wants a challenging selective college or some specialty area, discuss what experiences he may want to explore in the next few years in order to reach that goal. I know my own kids had long term goals at that age. And they kept that in the back of their minds as they worked hard at their studies and chose ways to challenge themselves further in academics or sought out some opportunities to explore things that weren't the norm in the curriculum and so on. In their EC endeavors, they never chose things to look good for college but did pursue lifelong passions with commitment and sought out challenges in those areas and opportunities to go to the highest levels they wanted to pursue with those. They pursued independent studies in areas of interest (which is easy for your child being homeschooled). When my oldest child was entering 11th grade, she thought about possible careers that might utilize some of her strengths and interests and did an indep. study to learn more and did an internship to also see how she liked that. My other child has had an interest area and career interest from a young age and sought out more and more intense or challenging experiences to go as far as she could in that interest area. Those are the kinds of things a child your age can start thinking about each year as you plan his program and outside activities. </p>

<p>As a parent, you are choosing to explore colleges and the admissions process and what those kind of schools are looking for. That is fine if you want to do that to educate yourself so that you might be able to guide your child to make appropriate choices in the coming years that will prepare him for that process. Frankly, my kids did not make choices with college admissions in mind over those years. They pursued what they enjoyed, strove to challenge themselves in school and achieve the best they could, and the rest followed. They spent their summers in worthwhile endeavors, never with college admissions in mind whatsoever but simply pursued programs around their interests and how they wanted to spend their summers. All the things they did eventually did contribute a strong application but nothing they did was to achieve anything with the application. </p>

<p>I do not see how your child needs to actually visit schools or be thinking of those choices just yet. There is plenty to do if he seeks out the things I was talking about above. Perhaps he can start visiting in tenth grade but I find that it is enough to make that the focus for the last two years of high school, and that was plenty of time. The years prior to that are spent learning and pursuing interests and challenges. The only reason to see colleges any younger than eleventh grade is to just see the kinds of colleges out there to see what is appealing and to maybe help keep the sights on the goals. But I think that the earlier years are to be spent on learning and growing. Much younger than eleventh grade to be looking at particular schools is not that productive as the child's specific interests are still developing as to what he wants in a colllege. </p>

<p>I can see going to maybe one college younger than 16 or so just to see a college campus and some of that is motivating in a way. I did not really do that with my kids. But I think when they were younger, when we were in Boston, we stopped by our alma mater, Tufts, just to show it to them and where mom and dad met. The only other thing I ever recall was when my younger D was turning 13 during 8th grade, we were in NYC for an audition (we live in VT) and between her audition and her callback, we had a few hours off and we met up with her best friend from CT in the city and her mom and we walked around Greenwich Village and both girls had been talking for years of some day going to NYU together to pursue musical theater and had older friends they both knew that were students there and we walked by NYU and they paused and both said, in five years, we both want to be here together. Indeed they both are applicants now but that is not the only school they wish to attend but that early moment back then did make an impression as to what they were reaching for. That is not why we walked by but I do recall that moment. </p>

<p>I ran into the parents of a boy my older D used to babysit for who is now in ninth grade and his parents were remarking how last summer they had to take their son to see Boston College that young (14) to make a point because I think this very bright boy must have been having some issues in his parents' view (that they did not quite come out and say but implied) and to get through to him about his grades, they took him to a BC, a school he was thinking of going to some day and hoping to be a soccer recruit (is starting goalie as a freshman on our varsity team, and a skilled athlete), and showed it to him and talked about if that was his goal, what he had to do in the coming few years to get there. So, at first I thought, wow that was young to visit a school but they did it to make a point and apparently made an impression on him. </p>

<p>Anyway, I would not talk specific schools with your son right now. If you want to educate yourself now about colleges and what they are looking for, that is not a bad thing to do. Reading this site will do plenty for you in that respect. But I would not focus on specific colleges or visit yet with your son so young. I would focus on the long range goals and putting plans into place both academically and extracuricularly along the lines of his interests and goals and focus on those in the coming four years and THEN explore colleges. Exploring colleges now seems like doing it in reverse to me. As I said, my kids did not do things to look good for college. They did what they wanted to do, tried to do their very best and achieve and the rest all followed when it came time to college admissions. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>originaloog wrote, "I'd feel terribly silly going to an 'info session' with a 12 year old!" </p>

<p>Actually, a year ago, I didn't know that there was such a thing as regional information sessions about particular colleges in my town. I have known about the NACAC national college fairs (one of which occurs in my town) for much longer, because I attended two of those in 1997 for research I was doing at that time for a writing project. </p>

<p>Last year, I came back to the NACAC National College Fair, and brought my son along, because I knew from previous attendance at such events that kids of any age are welcome at college fairs. He was eleven last year. We visited the college fair booth of a certain famous college, where the representatives very politely asked my eleven-year-old son (who looks no older than his actual age) what he was interested in. When they find out that S is in my State U.'s accelerated math program, THEY suggested that we also attend Famous School's regional information session. So I went last year, with my son, because someone had invited us. I found the information session interesting, and my son noticed things about the famous school, as shown in its video show, that suggested that he might fit in all right there. </p>

<p>This year we attended some other regional information sessions, for two reasons. First, I am part of a homeschooling support group that includes parents of children older than I, who sometimes ask me for advice on the subject of college admission because they are aware of my earlier writing projects. Second, we had been to one school's meeting last year, and because we knew that school's spiel, I began to notice that it was important to have other schools' spiels bouncing around in my thinking, precisely because otherwise we in our family would focus too soon on one school, which I agree is a bad idea. Now that we have heard from several different schools this year, we can ignore all the advertising for a few years and resume our regularly scheduled program of making sure our kids get a good, well-rounded education. </p>

<p>But don't feel bashful about attending a regional information session if you think it will be informative. It will be informative (once you discount all the advertising statements from the college representatives and alumni) and all the sessions we have attended have been very welcoming and helpful. Precisely because we haven't got any opportunity to travel outside our home region any time soon, we are happy to hear from colleges that travel to this region to look for applicants. </p>

<p>For the next few years, in my town, I will skip the regional information sessions. But I have parents in my local homeschooling support group who have already requested that I email them with info about next year's sessions.</p>

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<p>susan:
"As I said, my kids did not do things to look good for college. They did what they wanted to do, tried to do their very best and achieve and the rest all followed when it came time to college admissions."</p>

<p>That is such an important point, and something both college-driven parents and kids need to remember.</p>

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<p>tokenadult - To answer your question, I married a British man who likes living in his country and has no desire to live in the US plus I had always wanted to live in Europe. I ask myself why quite often when the wind and rain set in, but never mind, it has certainly given me a wider perspective on the world. My problem has been that without the network of friends "at the school gate", as the British say, to share info with and without contact with the expat community (being in a more rural area), added to my older age and our lack of holiday money to go back or take advantage of things when we were there, I simply didn't know things that I should have known. I thought I understood college admissions, but apparently I was using some wrong yardsticks to measure things or listened to the wrong people or didn't compare my D with the right group. Maybe I just believed what the colleges said about SAT scores not being everything, but anyway I was shocked at what I learned in a few hours on this site AND how long it took me to find this site since I was on all known college sites for a year before I came across it. I would have definitely done lots more campus visits with D while on holiday had I known this stuff for the last 5 years. One reason that would have worked for us is that the British education system forces kids to focus on the future at a much younger age by requiring choices of classes that then become prerequisites for certain other classes and courses. You cannot wait and decide you want a career in whatever after choosing not to take the right GCSEs for that career. We are talking Yr 9 choices later becoming critical, and as my D was young, she was making these choices at 8th grade age. But she was also the type of kid who cared about her future and believed us when we explained the significance of her choices to her, so it worked for us...if she had stayed in the British system. But now, she wants the US and things I should have done didn't get done because I didn't know to do them. So IMO parents should do whatever seems right for the type of child they have to help them see what will later be required for whatever they might want.</p>

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<p>When I was about 11 or 12 I used to travel with my dad when he taught CLE (Continuing Legal Education) classes at Princeton. I can recall attending the info session/tour and meeting professors who all wanted to know what I was interested in doing when I grew up. I remember being toally lost in the info sessions since there was no way for me to understand what an SAT or GPA was, let alone what field I wanted to pursue. I remeber thinking that the tours were interesting because of the architecture. But, I had no interest beyond that. I don't think that I would have decided for or against Princeton based on the time I spent there with my dad.</p>

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<p>Weenie....It was not until I started reading CC forums that I was exposed to the line of thinking of choosing this or that EC endeavor to look good for college, and/or this or that summer program, etc. By reading CC forums, I am exposed to all sorts of people from a wide range of communities. We do not live in a community where it is as competitive where the talk is of elite colleges and younger and younger over these kinds of things one needs to do to get in. I realize that line of thinking permeates other school communities. For instance, the whole studying for PSATs, never heard of here, nor did my kids do it. But they certainly never joined this or that or made a choice over what would look good on the 'ole college app resume. In fact, my kids' EC pursuits began at a young age and continued up to college and were not started in high school, so back then who was even thinking about what looks good for college. If anything, as the kids got older they had to drop some long time EC pursuits they had done for years such as figure skating and horseback riding (and in one kid's case, all her other sports) as the commitments to each of their EC endeavors became larger in terms of time. They never were choosing new things to do for college when in high school. I will say that they did take the most rigorous courses but that was not so much with college in mind but because they do crave to be challenged in the classroom. In general, they had long range goals to go to college so that may have underlined the motivation some, but otherwise, they did not do this or that to look good for college. I think everything they did or chose would have been done even if never going to college. Their summers were spent in activities/programs they loved without one thought given to college. </p>

<p>I have read numerous accounts, particularly by student posters here of what club or what community service (or even how many HOURS of CS) they "should do" for college and that is a foreign line of thinking from my own experience. Likewise, there are a lot of posters who are assuming that they must do some sort of academic summer program for college and that is quite untrue. My kids never chose academic summer programs, though I do think those are very worthwhile for kids who crave THAT experience, just like whatever my kids chose to do in summer (performing arts camps and travel programs) meant something meaningful to their interests. I don't think a lot of kids on here realize that colleges want to see kids pursue what they have an interest in, take it as far as they can, commit to it, achieve within that area, and so forth...but they do not care that that much WHAT that area is. They don't need to do things FOR college, they just need to DO. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Back on October 16, fireflyscout wrote, "My suggestion? Use this time to help your son explore his interests, to find his 'motivation.'" </p>

<p>Interestingly, my son would like to find more friends who share his subject matter passion, and we have found online groups helpful for that. If we match him up to his peers by subject matter level, as we attempted to do for summer programs in 2004, he is usually on the young side of the age range. He is enjoying one online community because it has guys (a little) younger than he is who are definitely able to bring up ideas about math that are new and challenging to him. But there is no substitute for face-to-face communication. </p>

<p>FOR SURE one of the best things a college, or for that matter a public school trying to get my son to sign up for open enrollment, could do to appeal to my son is to talk up the presence of a community of learners who share his passion for math. Because we can't find a whole school full of kids like that, we keep on homeschooling, arranging joint classes with kids who have passions for science, for history, for languages, and other subjects. We also send our son to the State U. accelerated math program, but even that has him on the young end of the age range and the high end of the motivation and achievement range. That's why we are pondering out-of-state schools for whenever it is that he goes off to college.</p>

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<p>If you want sure-thing acceptence, have him excell at an ususual/obscure talent. </p>

<p>"Potato Sack Racing, National Champion" for example</p>

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<p>tokenadult...have you considered some of the summer programs out there for gifted math students? You might want to look into Johns Hopkins CTY summer programs which are well regarded. Besides the whole math aspect, kids who go to these things find that they love being around other kids who have a passion for those subjects and are more "like them" than a typical peer group you might find at school. Marite's son has attended other summer math intensives. These programs would not only hit on the math interest and exploration but give him a social niche of friends he might bond with once the summer ends.<br>
Susan</p>

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<p>PROMYS has an age limit of 14, though it might be possible for a very mature student of 12 or 13 to argue his/her way into the program. For my S it has been a phenomenal experience, and he is still in touch with members of his group, a couple of whom are now in college. People who have attended Math camp also rave about it; I believe it does not have the same age limits as PROMYS.</p>