Planning WAY ahead?

[tokenadult]

<p>reasonable dad wrote, back on October 16, "I'm an engineer and so is my wife: both of our children showed early signs of being very interested in math and science. What a surprise! For this kind of kid, you are not too early in the planning stages, as you want to feed the appetite for science and math, and probably plan his future curriculum so that your oldest can take calculus early, since calculus is quite helpful with other scientific subject matter." </p>

<p>Yes. Learning enough math early enough is something rarely achieved in the standard United States curriculum. ALL of the math tested on the GRE math section is junior-high math in most east Asian countries, and it's certainly possible for most kids in the United States to learn math at a faster pace than they are taught. </p>

<p>My son's subject matter interest has focused pretty strongly on pure mathematics until recently, and I note with relief that State U. has a strong program in math. My son is in State U.'s accelerated mathematics program for secondary students, so if he stays on track he will taking calculus I next year (eighth-grade age). Even if his subject matter interests veer over to computer programming or engineering, all the math he is learning now will come in handy. </p>

<p>You mention learning math in your household, and I was wondering if you make any use of the EXCELLENT calculus textbook (titled Calculus) by Michael Spivak? That book is a joy and delight to read, full of thought-provoking ideas. Alas, my son will surely NOT be assigned that book for his calculus class--he will probably end up using one of the James Stewart textbooks--but we will use the Spivak book at home as a reference tool and source of supplemental exercises. I think we will also have the Apostol two-volume calculus textbook at home by next school year. </p>

<p>Another math resource that I just can't say enough good things about is the Art of Problem Solving (AoPS) online forum and its associated reference pages. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/index.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/index.php&lt;/a> </p>

<p>On AoPS we have learned how much HARD math there is to learn before calculus, and have "met" some International Mathematics Olympiad gold medalists, MATHCOUNTS national champions, and other interesting people. That is a great online community for math-eager young people. </p>

<p>Interestingly, my son's predominant leisure activity this school year has been reading English novels, both Newberry Award children's literature and classic English literature. He seems to be evening himself up on the verbal side without any pushing by me. </p>

<p>It's fun to see your perspective on parenting issues. Good luck to your children.</p>

[jamimom]

<p>There is nothing wrong with exposing your children to colleges eary. It really comes down to how you do it and the purpose. The best way, which is not always possible, is the natural way. You go to nearby campus events. Many of us, myself included, have always lived within a half hour of many different kinds of college, and as we use the facilities for programs that my kids want, we are visiting colleges. When we lived in Pittsburgh, we went to many of CMU and Pitt's cultural events. We also went to concerts and used Chatham's facilities and perused Carlow's campus as well. I took a course at Robert Morris, which exposed the kids to that school. They took ECs at Duquesne U and Point Park. They also went to event at LaRouche and every year something was going on at Penn State, like state championships. So by the time my kids were close to college age, they knew the differences between small enclosed campuses, big state schools, business oriented schools, suburban schools, city schools, Catholic schools. </p>

<p>Now it is more difficult for internationlal families to do this, but there is no reason not to take a quick drive through a college or two when staying in the US. ANd most colleges have excellent cultural events that may be worth visiting at bargain prices or for free. You can also catch a NCAA football or basket ball game if your kids are into sports.</p>

<p>And these days there are dozens of summer enrichment programs at many campuses. So most kids do get some exposure to colleges if they are active in ECs and if their parents are active in gettting the family to such events hosted by colleges.</p>

<p>What makes me uneasy is the parent who is obsessesed with just the most selective schools and starts at an early age to sell the school to the kid. I don't know how many essays I have seen that start with "My father took me to Harvard when I was just 6, and he always wore a Harvard sweatshirt when he was in casual dress". Many kids attribute their interest in the top schools to this sort of early exposure. I don't think you need to sell Harvard to anyone. If the kid ends up in the ball park of being accepted there, he will learn very quickly about Harvard. Where knowledge is often scant and too often there is a feeling of inferiority are the lesser known schools where kids are just statistically more likely to end up. Many of the kids prevailing attitudes about anything but the name schools were fed by this pressure that the only colleges worth considering are the HPY and Co. </p>

<p>So it's not that I am against early exposure to colleges. But it how this exposure is often done to young, impressionable kids not yet able to process the situation. Why plant a seed that may be a sore all of one's life? I really doubt that early pressure to go to Harvard is a key factor in getting a kid in there though I see that often attributed to one's success. For each kid who did get in, there are many more who did not. I doubt that the one who got in needed the subliminal and more blunt parental pressures, and I am sure the ones who did not get in, did not need this kid of brainwashing.</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>Marite wrote, in her first reply to this thread, "Hi, we actually met on another forum."</p>

<p>That got me thinking for a while, because you used a different screen name over on Brand X. I eventually figured out who you are. To protect your privacy and show that I remember your earlier messages, let me simply ask if you have read about any "pheasant revolutions" recently? </p>

<p>"When I began posting there, my S was about 12 or 13. He is now applying to colleges! Time flies. While we were not thinking of specific colleges when my S was 12, the direction in which he was headed was already clear." </p>

<p>Yeah, far be it from me to decide in advance where my son will apply, but the one thing people who know him in the real world remark on is his "passion" or "focus." Because my own academic background is distinct from my children's current domains of interest, I try to educate myself in what is a good set of voluntary, interesting actitivities for middle-schoolers that fit my oldest son's interests. </p>

<p>There is a mathematician in a city that is neither your city nor my city who has been going FAR beyond the call of duty in trying to organize a mathematical circle in my city. That may not happen in time for my son to participate, but I keep looking for someone to lead a mathematical circle here. We have gotten into "competition math" more heavily than your guy did, I think, in large part to gain acquaintance with math mentors for my son. He likes the competition programs well enough, and he does appear to learn math outside the standard curriculum as result of those programs. </p>

<p>You and some other participants in this thread mentioned summer programs. Alas, my son exhausted all the local programs early on. This most recent summer (2004) he attended two different residential summer programs, both in the overall CTY family, and liked those pretty well, although he was also very glad to get back home when they were over. MathPath </p>

<p><a href="http://www.mathpath.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mathpath.org&lt;/a> </p>

<p>is probably the top priority for next summer, although THINK summer institute </p>

<p><a href="http://www.ditd.org/public/article.aspx?cid=117&mid=233&tp=232%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ditd.org/public/article.aspx?cid=117&mid=233&tp=232&lt;/a> </p>

<p>also might be a possibility. </p>

<p>The Ross Program </p>

<p><a href="http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/ross/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/ross/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>might be very good for summer 2006. My son will not be old enough for that program, officially, even in that year (because his birthday is days after the usual cut-off date) but the program director has told me by email that there is a bit of flexibility in minimum age requirements for that program. There is NO flexibility in the minimum age for PROMYS </p>

<p><a href="http://math.bu.edu/people/promys/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://math.bu.edu/people/promys/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>for residential students, I am told, because there is a rigid rule about how old someone has to be to stay in a BU dorm, according to my sources. I wasn't aware, until this thread, that your guy had participated in PROMYS. I have heard very good things about that program from several participants. </p>

<p>The MathCamp program </p>

<p><a href="http://www.mathcamp.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mathcamp.org&lt;/a> </p>

<p>also has a lower minimum age limit than PROMYS, and so could be something to apply to in 2006. </p>

<p>Our main concern here, especially in view of the lack of a local mathematical circle, is to keep a social network going for our son (as you so thoughtfully advised) so that he doesn't lose interest in his passionate subject for the sake of feeling rapport with buddies. The online networks formed by mutual acquaintance in the Art of Problem Solving forums are very helpful in this regard. The AoPS forums include math-lovers from ages 11 to 51, and stimulate taking on more challenging problems and self-study of lots of math. </p>

<p>Are you waiting up tonight for the official results from Ohio? </p>

<p>Best wishes to your son as he applies to colleges.</p>

[marite]

<p>Tokenadult:</p>

<p>That's me!</p>

<p>I note from a previous post that your S is getting ready to learn Calculus. You may remember that my S taught himself, using FDWK. That worked out extremely well as far as the exam was concerned. But I would suggest your own son might actually like Spivak as well. My S was not allowed to take a proof-based version of Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra because that would have involved his leaving the school during day-time; he was not very happy with the "plug and chug" version he could take and had to take a math proof class the following year. His progress through the math curriculum has been a bit erratic as it is largely dictated by the school schedule.
You are right that my S has never been very interested in competitions for himself, although he has done well by his school's team since joining it. The teams have been a way for him to learn in an informal way and make friends as well. This has been important for keeping him anchored to the school community. </p>

<p>What he's loved about the PROMYS program was being with others his own age and working at the same level in math rather than being the youngest in class and an outsider as well. Another aspect of the program that he has loved is the collaboration among students. Cooperative learning is also strongly encouraged by colleges. Marilee Jones, the MIT Dean of Admissions, emphasized that aspect of the MIT experience and my S is experiencing this in his college courses.
The PROMYS rule regarding age must have been applied rigidly only since the last couple of years. My S has a friend who definitely was younger than the minimum age last year. Another alternative to PROMYS would be RSI. Students need to apply for participation in the summer before their last year in high school (which means my S will not be eligible). </p>

<p>To repeat some of my earlier statements regarding colleges: it became clear that my S would need to attend a university with graduate-level courses. This elminated LACs, even those with very strong math departments. Since my S did not wish to attend large universities, this also eliminated some state universities with excellent math departments (Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, for example). This trimmed down the list of universities to be considered very significantly. A few dropped lower on his personal ranking list on the basis of location. But the remaining list includes universities which he and we feel he would be very happy attending. There is no "dream" school, although he has a preference for the one he did apply to early. Our main concern is that all the schools are highly selective. If your son is comfortable taking classes at his large state university, his choice of college will not be limited in the same way as my S's; it will make your task of drawing up a list that much easier.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>voronwe wrote, back on October 16, </p>

<p>"I was an Ivy interviewer and I interviewed my share of dead souls (sorry, but it was true, and every interviewer knows it - there can be "dead souls" already at age 18.... the lack of passion, of interest, of creative leadership, etc....the glazed over eyes...the robotic responses....the high numbers but lack of an interior life). People often wonder why so many valedictorians (HUGE percentages) are turned down by Ivies and other elites while others get in."</p>

<p>Back in my mediocre suburban high school, in the 1970s, there was plenty of grade inflation, and so we had FIVE official valedictorians. One of those kids was a girl I had known since junior high, genuinely smart. I'll tell her story on some future occasion. Another was a grade-grubber of the worst kind, who never read anything in her life that wasn't assigned. She didn't know what the word "apathy" meant in her senior year--and, as one of my classmates acidly commented, "she didn't care either." </p>

<p>I use the term "zombie" to describe the kind of person you describe as a "dead soul," I think. I have met one example of a boy whose course of life development reminds me of the old English proverb "All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy." Because of the local example I have met, I have been all the more eager to make sure all of my children have plenty of unstructured time and have much opportunity to set their educational program through their own intrinsic motivation. For example, it is very likely that my second son will tend toward quite different activities in middle-school age and quite a different college major subject from my oldest son. In any event, it's up to them. It would give me the creeps to live in a house full of zombies.</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>Back on October 17, bookiemom wrote, "One thing you might do for your son is encourage reading Newsweek or Time and some of the New York Times (perhaps a few articles a week for now), especially related to his specific subject interest. My dad just always left Time sitting around where I would see it, and I started reading it about that age. I also read two newspapers a day through high school, and I thinked that helped me a lot in various ways."</p>

<p>Yes, we have had a subscription to one of the weekly newsmagazines, which was mostly my son's reading matter while we had the subscription, and he now subscribes to a monthly (a freebie subscription from airline frequent flyer miles). A friend lent us a bunch of back issues of Scientific American recently, and my son loves those. I think it is time to subscribe to the New York Times national edition, but I dread spending money on anything that will fill our house with more paper [wry grin]. I agree that it is important for young people to get in good reading experience while they are young, and I would be happy to hear of other suggestions for appropriate reading matter for young people, especially periodicals.</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>Back on October 17, bookiemom wrote, "One thing I did wrong with my D, now a college sophomore, was to encourage her to dream big and apply to any college she was interested in. We found later that we could only afford a more modest college, and it was sad for both of us. I feel I misled her by not realizing what our finances could really bear. So...consider your financial situation now as you begin to encourage your son in looking ahead to college."</p>

<p>This is the issue I most need to learn about. I worked in the nonprofit sector or overseas, or BOTH, for years, and we have not accumulated any kind of college fund for our four children. Our current spending, after we pay taxes, is devoted to current educational expenses. I don't have a good sense AT ALL how to plan for college attendance for our children when the oldest is already twelve, three more on growing up, and we are right about smack-dab at the median level of United States household income, in a median-cost state. </p>

<p>What I did when I was a kid, with the same birth order of being first child of four, was plan to attend somewhere where I could pay ALL college expenses out of pocket from my own earnings. So I applied only to State U., which easily admitted me, and worked my way through school. I am committed to bear the full EFC each school requires of me for each of my children's education, even if that means borrowing, but I have no idea how ambitious we can be in </p>

<p>a) touring colleges before applying, </p>

<p>b) applying to colleges (that is, paying application fees), </p>

<p>c) pursuing certain kinds of expensive ECs, </p>

<p>or </p>

<p>d) seeing our children if they go off to college out of state. </p>

<p>What's realistic these days?</p>

[marite]

<p>I am convinced your child will be eligible for merit scholarships and for admission into honors programs at large universities (for example, Michigan would be an excellent choice for your S). This should be taken into consideration, as will the fact that you are very likely to qualify for need-based aid. Keep in mind that some of the more selective colleges can also be the most generous. I would choose only one financial and admission safety and think hard about reaches and matches and really pare down the list.
As far as travel is concerned, it can be cheaper traveling far than near. We found out that traveling from Boston to LA or SF would be far cheaper than to Ithaca, for example.
My S is applying to a couple of colleges that he has not had a chance to visit. If he is admitted, he will do so, but right now, he just does not have the luxury of missing classes.</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>Hi, Marite, you wrote, in your latest reply, "Keep in mind that some of the more selective colleges can also be the most generous. I would choose only one financial and admission safety and think hard about reaches and matches and really pare down the list." </p>

<p>This is an idea that I first heard about from the Colfax family, famed in homeschooling circles for sending the first three of their four children to Harvard. They were a very countercultural family, working as goat farmers in the high mountains of northern California, and they had a lot of interesting life experiences to add to a college class, but very little money. They were advised, by some friend of David Colfax, the dad in the family, to apply to the "big schools," on the theory that those schools had more endowment funds and thus more generous financial aid. That worked for their family. </p>

<p>By contrast, I didn't even think I could afford more than one application fee when I was in my senior year of high school. I presume that State U., which was a safety school for me by SAT scores, really was the right fit for me at the time, because I certainly didn't have either the ECs or the grades of Ivy League applicants of my generation. (I had one high school classmate who applied to Harvard and was rejected. Another classmate who I knew less well got into Stanford as a recruited football player.) </p>

<p>So, yes, whatever my son decides would be a cool place to go to school, it looks like our state university (which is developing more coherent honors programs and more merit aid than it had in my day) will be both an admissions and financial safety school. My son doesn't seem to mind the huge urban commuter campus that our State U. is. He could (inconveniently) take a bus there from where we live now. It's hard to say what kind of college he might find more appealing than State U., if any, when he gets to be older, but we would definitely be squeezed out of schools at which list price really is the out-of-pocket price his family would be expected to pay. In that case he would have little reason to go anywhere but our friendly local state university.</p>

[tokenadult]

<p>Wow, this Parents Forum has so many interesting threads it's hard to stop reading. Several of the replies to this thread all emphasize, in various phrasings, the importance of not getting stuck too early on one school as the "dream" school to apply to. I'm wondering, from the point of view of you parents who are farther along in the process, how I should prepare each of my children for the possible (likely?) disappointment of the college application process. </p>

<p>When I was a kid, I developed a daydream about a particular school because of a magazine article I read. I don't think I ever told my parents in detail that that was my dream school. I'm SURE my high school counselor never asked, and didn't care, what schools I might want to apply to. My dad suggested a particular school, a super-reach for almost anyone, to apply to, but although I interviewed with that school's alumni interviewer, the interview actually made me LESS interested in that school, so I never applied there. (I doubt very much that I would have been accepted, had I applied, because I hadn't been busy in the preceding years of high school getting ready for a school of that echelon.) Today I DO feel disappointed, once in a while, that I never even tried to apply anywhere but one school for undergraduate studies. </p>

<p>My son has a buddy who has already focused on one particular school--the same CC top 25 school that was my dream school when I was a kid. My son is still making up his mind what he'd like to study at college age, and is nowhere near being focused on one school. Because of our financial circumstances, we are basically in a position of applying either to State U. or to the FEW schools with really lavish financial aid, unless we are unusually successful in obtaining third-party scholarships. Thus my trepidation about NOT being ready to make a strong application to one of the most selective schools, and also my feeling that we may have to end up being very happy with State U. anyhow--admission to any conspicuously better school would be a longshot for almost anyone. </p>

<p>What has been most helpful in getting kids who ARE focused, by themselves, on one particular school to open up to the possibility of applying to and thriving at another school? In general, what do you recommend for building up a child's resilience and ability to deal with possible (likely?) disappointment? </p>

<p>Thanks for sharing.</p>

[calmom]

<p>I think age 12 is too young to plan or think about college, especially with a homeschooled kid. The problem is that so much can change over the years, you really have no idea of where your sons interests and aptitudes will take him -- so you run the risk of setting goals too high. And homeschooled kids have other options -- many decide to start taking college courses at local community colleges or state colleges while they are still high school age - so it is very possible that your kid will start college part-time, locally well before the age you planned - and at age 18 be applying to college as a transfer student rather than a freshman.</p>

<p>But given the costs of college, it is a very good idea to start putting away money now. That's one area where you can't start too soon -- and a homeschooled kid may have a harder time getting merit scholarships, unless standardized test scores are very high, simply because he doesn't have a high GPA to qualify. So I would suggest that you don't even think about college choices until your son is about 15... but focus your parental energies on the financial plan</p>