<p>that should read "one of the Claremont schools, probably CMC". Pomona would be as reachy as some already on the list and somehow I can't see Pitzer and UF on the same list. (But again, I guess it could happen.)</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>"what's wrong with the strategy of only applying to really stellar, top ranked schools figuring that the worst outcome is a spot at the state school?"<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not a bad strategy if your kid would really not mind going to state U. But many kids feel disappointed (to the point of depression) if they don't get into a "top tier" school after "working so hard" in high school. </p>
<p>There was a thread not that long ago about the kid who didn't get into his reaches and was bummed about having to be a physics major at the U of MN. A cautionary tale...</p>
<p>
cateye~
My son was in your son's shoes two years ago. He was a top-ranked student in a large public school in a small Kansas town. He basically decided that if he didn't get into any of his reaches, he would attend the state school here in KS in the honors program. At the time I thought his plan was fine and that he had come to terms with his decision.</p>
<p>As he finished up applications, though, he got some SERIOUSLY cold feet. When his Yale EA rejection came in that December, and he FULLY realized the position into which he had put himself, he panicked and added a couple of schools to his list, schools that were in between his ONE safety and the 6 elites to which he had applied. Trust me when I tell you that it was a <em>VERY</em> good move. One of the schools he added, UMiami, accepted him with a 3/4 tuition scholarship, and this gave him a good, viable option before the results of the 6 elite apps. came in.</p>
<p>As it turned out, my son was accepted to three of his elite schools (Duke, UPenn, and Johns Hopkins) with some significant financial incentives at each one. I am the FIRST to say, however, that <strong><em>HE GOT LUCKY</em></strong> and that if we had this to do over, I'd encourage him to do it somewhat differently, particulary by concentrating on more schools in the match range that are merit possibilities. </p>
<p>What i'm TRYING to tell you is this...though you son seems happy right NOW to attend the state school should all else fail, PLEASE realize how VERY easy it would be for ALL ELSE TO FAIL when you're dealing with schools with those acceptance rates. When this becomes more clear to him, he may end up unhappy with so few choices in the end. I suspect he may get cold feet later and want to add more match schools. Better to have researched those (particularly ones with merit opportunities) earlier, rather than later.</p>
<p>I wish your son the VERY BEST OF LUCK. We'll be pulling for him!</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>APOL,</p>
<p>Cur has given you what I think is the reason not to consider Cal and UCLA as safeties if your kid really really wants Princeton. Princeton has ~5000 undergraduates and no business school, no med school, no law school. It sits in the middle of an affluent suburb. Cal and UCLA really couldn't feel much different. If you have a kid who adores loves Princeton, I would say to look, for example, at Rice. Nice campus, nice neighborhood, good at sciences, Southern feel, etc. Might not be a safety but at least a good match.</p>
<p>OTOH, if your kid really likes Harvard, Cal and UCLA make sense.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Not a bad strategy if your kid would really not mind going to state U. But many kids feel disappointed (to the point of depression) if they don't get into a "top tier" school after "working so hard" in high school.</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Well, yeah. Let's look at the OP's list again: ND, Duke, Penn jumped out at me as being smaller than U Florida but certainly not in the LAC category. UFL is not exactly Podunk U either. And why is somebody owed a spot at a selective school after "working so hard?" That smacks of entitlement, that the state school (not talking commuter U, but well regarded flagship state schools with selective admissions) is somehow not "good" enough?</p>
<p>We live in a state with a flagship public university that is highly regarded. My D. is very clear that she wants a school where she will be around "lots of different kinds of people" and after visiting schools ranging from Harvard to small, laid back LACs and doing extensive research online, has eliminated all but one LAC from her target list; the one remaining school is there because it has a great reputation for math and hard sciences, so appears to her to be a little less "artsy" than some of the LACs she looked at. </p>
<p>For her, it makes sense to skip the schools "in the middle." After doing the research, she decided that if she couldn't get into something that was both qualitatively and quantitatively (in terms of difficulty of admission and rigor of undergrad program) different than the U, the next best thing for her is the U, preferably the honors program there. </p>
<p>Why do the busy work and spend the money on a lot of applications just to say you got admitted to something other than the state U, when for some of us in states like CA, TX, IL, VA, NC, MI, WI, WA etc. it's questionable at best whether anything other than a really amazing school is going to provide a student with any "better" education than the in-state flagship option?</p>
<p>I think many, many parents on this board have way too much invested in the idea of "fit." Are these kids all such precious flowers that they must have a custom made greenhouse in which to thrive? Humans are adaptable, social creatures. Barring unusual circumstances, a student will find something to like at a wide variety of institutions. Colleges are amazing places, full of young, energetic, focused, intelligent, creative people. After touring so many places I found more similarities than differences; the reassuring thing about college visits was that I came away confident that both of my children could do well at a wide variety of places, so no matter what they ended up deciding, they have a high probability of adapting and fitting in. </p>
<p>If your kid feels like a failure because he or she is going to a state university, the failure is in the family's attitude and expectations.</p>
<p>To the OP - Several have noted the key "issue" with the proposed list. All reaches (low % acceptance rates, even if applicant is top notch, which your S is). </p>
<p>So, the question is, why is this a list with all reaches and the in-state U as safety? Does your S love the idea of attending U Florida? If so, the list is fine. </p>
<p>Most kids with a list like this (and stats like your S) do <em>not</em> love the idea of attending in-state U. They have not done a careful job of the search and selection process. They have merely targeted some "name" schools and thrown in an "I know I'll get in there, no-thought-required" safety. Then, they are devastated - and I do mean DEVASTATED - when the results come in.</p>
<p>So, tell us how the list was composed, so that we can help you feel confident that your S will be happy with his results come April. </p>
<p>I, personally, urge your S to add to his list. The absolutely most important category of schools, imo, is the Match category. These are schools which have higher acceptance rates than the super-reach and reach schools, but have a critical mass of students with similar academic qualifications - ie, a potentially large group of peers for the academic standout student. interesteddad has suggested some; they may or may not appeal to your S. He needs to do the work to figure out what he likes about his reaches and super-reaches and look for schools as much like them as possible, but with the 30-50% acceptance rates.</p>
<p>Even if you and he think he will be happy to attend U Florida, I urge you to answer this question. If April 1 brings 5 skinny envelopes and 1 fat one from U Florida, how will your S feel on that day, on the days between that day and hs graduation as he compares notes with his peers on where he will be going? How will he feel if the reason he attends U Florida is because he had no other choices?</p>
<p>I believe that your goal is to be sure that he has CHOICES on April 1. One or more of those choices MIGHT come from his reaches, but those are low odds. Add 3 or so match schools to his list and he is bound to have some interesting choices to make. That is the only right way to compose a list, I think.</p>
<p>
Mombot~</p>
<p>This made me smile. I think you make an EXCELLENT point here, and I agree with you. I think that with few exceptions (and there ARE a few), most kids could thrive in any school large enough and diverse enough to have all kinds of people, course offerings, social scenes, etc. As I said, my son basically used the same approach. We added a couple of other "in-between" schools at the last minute, but chances are, he'd have ended up at our state U if he'd not received the acceptances that he did. I personally think that your approach can be <em>perfect</em> if your daughter is certain of her choices. GOOD FOR YOU...and thanks for the smile! ~berurah</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, how does one get 716 on the SATII-Math?</p>
<p>On principle, I agree that most kids are resilient and could thrive in a variety of settings. But that's not really the point of college search and selection. There is a happy medium between Pomona or Princeton and UFlorida in terms of size, social scene, etc... If the student is totally happy to attend UF if not admitted to Princeton, then there is no point asking about other colleges. But if Princeton is the dream school, then UF may not be the best alternative. I see the point of this thread as being which schools in between these two the student would be admissible at and would be happy to attend.</p>
<p>I, too, totally agree with the passage from Mombot quoted by berurah.</p>
<p>I think that my S is proof of this - he bounced from Tulane to Bates and back due to Katrina, and enjoyed both. He is now at a third, still different "type" of school, and I predict he will enjoy it as well. I have always thought of him as an adaptable kid. When other parents were obsessing over which K or 3rd grade teacher their child would have, I believed my S could thrive with any teacher, short of psychotic or totally incompetent. So my S could "fit" in a lot of places. He did, though, like one school better than other because it "fit" what he most wanted and visualized for himself for college life.</p>
<p>So, I think that an important part of today's college admissions process is to make it a process where the student is in control of his choices. The only way to do this is to choose (1) schools that s/he finds appealing and (2) schools where s/he has a reasonable to excellent chance of acceptance. Then, after the schools do their part of the process, the ball is in the student's court. To create a list where virtually all of the schools are low chances of admission is to create situation where the student has no control over his college future.</p>
<p>And could be unhappy at a good "fit" college specifically because s/he had no choice in the matter.</p>
<p>
Another succinct, excellent piece of advice, and one with which I fully agree.</p>
<p>I <em>think</em> though, that what Mombot was trying to say was that her daughter <em>IS</em> in control and KNOWS what she wants and that she will not regret the lack of many schools to choose from in April should things turn out that way. I personally think that this could work EXCEEDINGLY well for some kids...it was basically what MY son did as well, though he did reconsider the possible lack of choices late in the process. But if a kid is <strong>REALLY</strong> sure of this, avoiding the "in between" schools also avoids a good deal of hassle and expense (in terms of apps.). As Mombot pointed out, if neither the kid nor the parents look upon the state school alternative as somehow <em>only</em> receiving a "consolation prize" but rather having a different but equally viable option, there will be NO disappointment. </p>
<p>~b.</p>
<p>imo it's very possible this applicant may be accepted only to U of Florida because the ECs are weak even for the easiest of the schools on the "reach" list, except perhaps Notre Dame. It is possible this applicant may have a great interview or recs (from an an authority in an academic field) that state convincingly he is the most brilliant student ever seen --but I think it is possible this applicant will end up at U of Florida if the list is not broadened --nothing wrong with that, it's a fantastic school. On the other hand, this applicant could probably get merit aid to many exceptional schools with these stats. The grades and scores put this applicant in the running anywhere --but that is a long way from acceptance. The final cut at elite schools is usually made on ECs barring another hook. Perhaps there is some further accomplishment that has not been listed? My older son had similar stats (though his SATS and SAT-IIs were somewhat higher) BUT that's probably irrelevant --he had ECs that made him stand out more ...ie he had a citation of honor from the state legislature for work on one project that was personal and quite impactful, and a well-known mathematician he worked with from a famous U said he was one of the best she had seen, etc ...even he was rejected from most of the elite schools he applied to though he did get into some. NO WAY are UCLA and Berkeley comparable to Ivies like Brown or Dartmouth ...and as other posters said, Princeton, well ....my kid did not even think of applying there with somewhat higher scores and similar grades. Anything is possible ...give it a shot but cover your bases.</p>
<p>We looked for those mid-range schools, because D said "please don't make me go to the state school!" She didn't like the size, or the dorms, etc. It depends on the kid. If the kids is happy with the safety and would love to go there, then there is no need for anything more.</p>
<p>I'd like to know more about the OP's son. Even if fit IS less essential than conventional wisdom has it, I wonder about his potential major, affinity for city life/suburban life, desired class size and geographic region of the US, activities he wants to pursue at school, etc. He seems, from his ECs, to like golf and politics/government. Surely even some of the schools already on his list would suit him better than others? Princeton is very different from Notre Dame is very different from Penn, right?</p>
<p>Since the OP asked about chances, I'd agree with everyone else that ND seems the least "reachy" reach. Does he like any school well enough to go ED?</p>
<p>I'm surprised nobody has pointed the OP to the recent thread about the highly qualified (yet with chinks in his app the parent didn't reognize) young man rejected by all schools other than U of Minnasota, where he was none too happy about attending. Anyone remember the name of the thread? Or about Andison (OP, search for these threads).</p>
<p>The fact is this is happening to more and more kids, especially those at schools without strong counseling. Many parents think the standards of their day still prevail at top colleges. Kids who stand out at average high schools come to believe they will stand out everywhere.</p>
<p>Top prep schools are telling kids with 4.0/2400s not to expect HYPSM, but many more average schools are just not aware. The fact is these schools are taking less than 10% when 80% are qualified. And kids with exceptional stats are being turned down at the NDs more regularly for weaknesses many parents don't see.</p>
<p>The fact is, MOST parents do think getting into Cal and UCLA and the honors program at their State U is like getting into an ivy. April is the cruelest month!</p>
<p>My advice to the OP is to have her son read the threads on ivy acceptance here on CC. It is probably the easiest way to accept reality and get a kid to expand his list.</p>
<p>Your son should look into the UF Honors Program. He could get his Undergrad virtually for free, and then he can go into debt when he pursues his Graduate or Professional degrees.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.honors.ufl.edu/aboutus.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.honors.ufl.edu/aboutus.html</a></p>
<p>To the original poster:</p>
<p>While I poured cold water on the initial list of schools in terms of being "matches", I want to be sure that you not interpreting my remarks as being that one or more of those schools are unreasonable reaches. My concern with the list is not that the reaches are totally misguided, but rather the lack of matches. Personally, I believe that a good college list should be mostly matches.</p>
<p>To MomBot:</p>
<p>I can't let this comment pass without comment:</p>
<p>
[quote]
....has eliminated all but one LAC from her target list; the one remaining school is there because it has a great reputation for math and hard sciences, so appears to her to be a little less "artsy" than some of the LACs she looked at.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know what LACs your daughter has looked at. There are certainly good reasons to choose larger schools. But, the notion that LACs as a group are somehow more "artsy" and less "sciency" or "mathy" couldn't be further from the truth. LAC grads are overrepresented in the top levels of science, by any measure. Many of these schools are known for hard core academics, especially in the sciences:</p>
<p>Here are top 40 per graduate producers of science, math, and engineering PhDs over the most recent 10 year period. I've bolded the undergrad LACs:</p>
<p>Percentage of all grads getting PhDs in Engineering, Hard Science, and Math</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>
<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads</p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 34%
2 ** Harvey Mudd College ** 24%
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 16%
4 ** Reed College ** 10%
5 Rice University 9%
6 ** Swarthmore College ** 8%
7 Princeton University 8%
8 ** Carleton College ** 7%
9 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7%
10 University of Chicago 7%
11 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7%
12 Case Western Reserve University 7%
13 Harvard University 6%
14 Carnegie Mellon University 6%
15 Johns Hopkins University 6%
16 ** Haverford College ** 6%
17 ** Grinnell College ** 6%
18 Cornell University, All Campuses 6%
19 ** Kalamazoo College ** 5%
20 Stanford University 5%
21 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 5%
22 Yale University 5%
23 Cooper Union 5%
24 ** Oberlin College ** 5%
25 ** Lawrence University ** 5%
26 ** Bryn Mawr College ** 5%
27 ** Williams College ** 5%
28 ** Pomona College ** 5%
29 Colorado School of Mines 4%
30 ** Bowdoin College ** 4%
31 ** Earlham College ** 4%
32 Brown University 4%
33 University of Rochester 4%
34 University of California-Berkeley 4%
35 ** Wabash College ** 4%
36 Duke University 4%
37 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4%
38 ** Amherst College ** 4%
39 Stevens Institute of Technology 4%
40 ** St Olaf College ** 4%</p>
<p>This is the third posting of our son's selection process. Hopefully my last year in posting (gotta find another forum). The technique that he used is the selection by methodology. The order of resources can be important in the process. </p>
<p>USNWR College Guide: For selection of college that came close to his desired study.</p>
<p>Rand McNally: To find where the school is located in proximity to Home and to major airport.</p>
<p>Expedita: The determination of frequency, connections, and cost to airport.</p>
<p>College Websites: To fine tune the selection. Ignore the glossys- All printed materials was shagged and taken away by his mommy for recycling. Never got to a single WSL flyer. </p>
<p>Miscel criteria: What We Could Afford, Nothing in CA WA, OR (resident)(Airline frequency to frequent), Nothing south of Mason Dixon. </p>
<p>Attend the Regional RoadShows (all pretty much the same) of the major colleges not so much to hear what they say but see what kind of students showup and what are their expections. There is a recent thread for the shows. </p>
<p>Very impressive son you have. The problem that all kids have today is that we are in the confluence of the tail end of baby boom echo and X generation. Limited spots for too many qualified kids. Try for the "Ivy League" for the cachet but know that there are many schools that can do a better job.</p>
<p>All IMHO.</p>
<p>You might want to have him get a copy of Ruggs Recommendations- which list colleges according to majors offered- and ranks them based on the recommendations of hundreds of guidance counselors[ hence the name] I ordered it directly from the publisher in Calif, as it is almost impossible to find in stores. We found this book invaluable at the beginning of S's college search last year, as he was interested in majoring in 2 very different fields, and wanted to find top ranked colleges that offered both majors.</p>
<p>cateye:</p>
<pre><code> First, I would suggest that you have a third party go over his list with him with steely-eyed objectivity. If you're in the kind of h.s. (usually private) where a GC will do that, fine. Sometimes, if you're lucky, a very experienced public school counselor will be good at this, but if not, it's usually not hard to find a private guidance counselor who will consult with you on an hourly rate. You need to be objective about where he stands as a candidate for admission to particular colleges in the context of his high school peers who might be applying to similar colleges. I suggest you email or call your son's GC and ask if his list is realistic in the context of the competition from students at his school; ask if the counselor has suggestions.
</code></pre>
<p>I believe that "school support" can be pivotal in certain decisions. If several "top" students from the same school are applying to Princeton or Penn -- and if this is not a school known to send numerous students to the same Ivies -- then a huge amount of weight is going to be given to the recommendations given to each student competing for the same spot. If this is the kind of high school that only sends one, two, or three students to the "super reach" Ivies per year, than your son has to be the student counselors and teachers will speak of in recommendations as though he were capable of walking on water. They must essentially say, "do not pass this one up; he is the most wonderful person and the most incredible student (or student-athlete) we have seen in years...." If you honestly believe there are others in his high school class that are more likely to receive this kind of recommendation, I suggest that you drop Princeton (and maybe Penn) from the list and focus on the others as reaches, but at least possible, if he makes a strong case in his application as to why he belongs there. </p>
<pre><code>Second, as weenie said many posts before, be honest with yourself about the money and what you CAN pay versus what you would need for your son to attend certain colleges. If you can check "no" on the box for seeking financial aid, that might be a factor in admission. If you are seeking significant merit aid, you should look at colleges with lower selectivity rates than those on your list. If not, then I think he is at least in the running for the colleges on the list (other than P and P) even though they are reaches.
</code></pre>
<p>Third, I think your son should ask for materials (glossies) to be mailed to him from colleges he's interested in and he should read them. Often included are details of special programs or aspects of college life that do turn out to be selling points. One of these mailings included information that convinced my son in CA that he ought to add WUSTL (much maligned for the sin of marketing) to his list of colleges to visit, after which it shot to the top of his list of desired colleges. Finally, find some way for your son to visit, visit, visit. Do not trust one-liners in guidebooks or the perceptions of others who comment on their own visits. If the visits help your son determine that one stands above the others in preference, then apply ED to that school. And be specific about why that school is his no. 1.</p>
<p>Others have already said that your son should have other schools on the list as matches and safeties unless he is okay with going to UF. My son considered UCs as his safety and would have happily gone to UCLA or Berkeley if he hadn't been able to choose among WUSTL and other privates he considered a better fit. Good luck to your son.</p>